Shot at a legacy

[Dash Power]

No, those would be guys hired in the 90's or early 2000's, from 2001 till about 4 years ago we didn't hire. The pilots upgrading now are typically ex Aloha. Although not all.

I was thinking that. RJs hadn't really hit the seen big back then. The regionals were still flying mostly the 19-30 pax turbo props. It was not uncommon they still operated the 19 pax Part 135.

 

[Dan Roman]

We still do hire across the whole spectrum. I've flown with RJ pilots who we're FO's and former turboprop Captains with no jet time.
Since we are on the subject of HA hiring........we have a sort of unique situation in that some go inter island 717 others go A330 or 767. The widebody hires have to be typed as they may serve as IRO. For the pilots with no jet time, inter island is a great way to become very comfortable very quickly at flying a jet. 4 to 8 legs a day and lots of wind and the occasional low approach in heavy rain and wind tends to sharpen anyone. Whereas flying the widebodies and only doing a handful of landings a month makes it a lot harder to get hands on flying experience. I have seen low time pilots make a career here in the widebodies and do fine. But it take a good attitude towards staying current.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

Does Alaska have a TPIC requirement? I remember hearing about some Horizon FO's going over a couple years ago.

In the past, Alaska required 750-1000 TPIC depending on where the time came from. I believe 750 was for applicants with fighter time. An exception to the TPIC requirement was made for QX pilots who had at least 2000 in the right seat over there. I'm not sure how many pilots have been hired with only sic time. In the last year as we've hired around 100 pilots, it seems that most were exceptionally well connected.

 

[Dash Power]

In the last year as we've hired around 100 pilots, it seems that most were exceptionally well connected.

Alaska does a great job in hiring good guys. Probably the most enjoyable to have in the jumpseat from another carrier. Being well connected helps keep that standard high.

 

[SAABaroowski]

What about us poor bastard FOs who have been stuck as an RJ FO for 6+ years, I wouldnt fault anyone in that case to get a job flying a bus for Jblue and still network towards a legacy job. One could potentially continue to wait for the upgrade and end up like Comair and PNCL, then you're really F'd, thoughts?

 

[General Lee]

What about us poor bastard FOs who have been stuck as an RJ FO for 6+ years, I wouldnt fault anyone in that case to get a job flying a bus for Jblue and still network towards a legacy job. One could potentially continue to wait for the upgrade and end up like Comair and PNCL, then you're really F'd, thoughts?

Towards the second half of the huge hiring cycle coming up here it won't matter if you have PIC or not. For the first half, yes. That does make a big difference in your QOL and which plane and position you will be at during the next big downturn. Getting hired at the beginning of any hiring wave is important. Guys with lots of PIC and a clean record will get hired first. But, it always helps to know someone. That could be your golden ticket...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SAABaroowski]

Towards the second half of the huge hiring cycle coming up here it won't matter if you have PIC or not. For the first half, yes. That does make a big difference in your QOL and which plane and position you will be at during the next big downturn. Getting hired at the beginning of any hiring wave is important. Guys with lots of PIC and a clean record will get hired first. But, it always helps to know someone. That could be your golden ticket...


Bye Bye---General Lee

Thats my thinking, well said! Thanks for the input. I just think hanging out at a regional is a bad idea given whats happening in this sector.....

 

[General Lee]

Thats my thinking, well said! Thanks for the input. I just think hanging out at a regional is a bad idea given whats happening in this sector.....

It's not bad if there isn't huge hiring anywhere else currently. That will change over the next few years, and in 5-10 years there will be some airlines losing 500-700 pilots per year. At a legacy, one guy leaving means multiple upgrades, primarily because planes usually pay different depending on the size. A 744 Capt might be replaced by an A330 Capt, which would give his seat to a 767 Capt, which gives his seat to a 737 Capt, all the way down to a newhire. If 700 senior guys leave, well, you get the picture. That is expensive for the airline, but they are the ones deciding on multiple fleet types. If that goes on for 5 years, that is a lot of movement. If 3 legacies are doing that, that is a lot of hiring. People might leave some LCCs at the same time, so there will be hiring there too. Just keep clean with the FAA, try to get PIC if you can, otherwise get jet SIC. Good luck.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Dash Power]

It's not bad if there isn't huge hiring anywhere else currently. That will change over the next few years, and in 5-10 years there will be some airlines losing 500-700 pilots per year. At a legacy, one guy leaving means multiple upgrades, primarily because planes usually pay different depending on the size. A 744 Capt might be replaced by an A330 Capt, which would give his seat to a 767 Capt, which gives his seat to a 737 Capt, all the way down to a newhire. If 700 senior guys leave, well, you get the picture. That is expensive for the airline, but they are the ones deciding on multiple fleet types. If that goes on for 5 years, that is a lot of movement. If 3 legacies are doing that, that is a lot of hiring. People might leave some LCCs at the same time, so there will be hiring there too. Just keep clean with the FAA, try to get PIC if you can, otherwise get jet SIC. Good luck.
Bye Bye---General Lee

Good post. A few guys on the bottom of the SWA seniority list who are Capt upgrade hungry will probably leave for Delta. Some of the Airtran guys as well I would imagine.

Hiring has always been fluid when it comes to qualifications. It is only guess work at this point since there has been such a lengthy delay for the entire industry on the legacy side. Attitude will always be number one no matter your qualifications. With that considered I can see many young guys with a ton of 121 PIC time getting picked up. After that, as the General pointed out, more and more SIC time guys will get picked up.

IMO, there is a serious gamble to get ANY PIC time outside of the 121 environment. If I was sitting at the table, and I have, making those decisions, my experience has shown me that the 121 Captains are well prepared for the move to the majors more so than other backgrounds. As long as there are available 121 Captains with good attitudes that is where I am getting our next pilots. Part 135 single pilot Captains are good at what they do but are not as experienced as the 121 Captains for the 121 major job they are applying to.

Again, we will largely be able to define this next hiring cycle in short time. We are probably looking at the highest qualified group of pilots available in the industries history once this starts going. I think an honest question to ones self is if you were doing the hiring for a major, what qualifications would you choose if all have great attitudes?

 

[Dan Roman]

.
. I think an honest question to ones self is if you were doing the hiring for a major, what qualifications would you choose if all have great attitudes?

Judging from I have seen, I agree with your assessment and I would probably vote for the 121 experienced Captains. About half our pilots have been hired in the last 4 years, so we have hired from the whole spectrum. But I think we agree it's attitude that trumps everything. Once on the line for awhile their background means a lot less than their attitude.

I'll throw out another point to ponder for someone deciding if they want to stay somewhere or move on. I'd say consider where you would want to be if you didn't get the legacy job you want. It is a bit of a crap shoot, those of us at a legacy are not "better" just luckier. If you don't get the job you want consider what your next choice would be for a career, Sky West, JetBlue or some regional that happens to have a domicle where you want to live. It might be the Eastern Shore of Maryland, it might be Texas or it might be St George Utah. But consider where you would want to be if your number 1 choice doesn't happen.

 

[poor2thecore]

Good post. A few guys on the bottom of the SWA seniority list who are Capt upgrade hungry will probably leave for Delta. Some of the Airtran guys as well I would imagine.

Hiring has always been fluid when it comes to qualifications. It is only guess work at this point since there has been such a lengthy delay for the entire industry on the legacy side. Attitude will always be number one no matter your qualifications. With that considered I can see many young guys with a ton of 121 PIC time getting picked up. After that, as the General pointed out, more and more SIC time guys will get picked up.

IMO, there is a serious gamble to get ANY PIC time outside of the 121 environment. If I was sitting at the table, and I have, making those decisions, my experience has shown me that the 121 Captains are well prepared for the move to the majors more so than other backgrounds. As long as there are available 121 Captains with good attitudes that is where I am getting our next pilots. Part 135 single pilot Captains are good at what they do but are not as experienced as the 121 Captains for the 121 major job they are applying to.

Again, we will largely be able to define this next hiring cycle in short time. We are probably looking at the highest qualified group of pilots available in the industries history once this starts going. I think an honest question to ones self is if you were doing the hiring for a major, what qualifications would you choose if all have great attitudes?

Do you think SWA will drop the TPIC requirement given that none of the legacies require it and they'll be hiring quite a bit more?

 

[BentOver]

Do you think SWA will drop the TPIC requirement given that none of the legacies require it and they'll be hiring quite a bit more?

I doubt many Legacies will drop any of their previous minimums. Atleast for a few years (as many here have pointed out).. Just too many very qualified RJ Captains who still want to make the leap.... And then there are the guys doing the Expat flying who may be waiting. And followed by the guys doing the non-UPS/FedEx freight stuff.....

I don't see finding qualified applicants at the Legacies being a problem for a long long time....

 

[808pilot]

Last week I flew with a brand new FO straight off IOE... This was his first 121 job and its in the 330... It helped that his background was a U2 pilot... Holy crap we hired an astronaut! The guy had a kickass attitude and was willing to learn the procedures of an airline... He was just so stoked... That's why he got hired... His new hire class was a cross of every demographic he said...
In my experience and from what and who I have been meeting persistence and attitude is the way to land the job...

 

[Dan Roman]

Last week I flew with a brand new FO straight off IOE... This was his first 121 job and its in the 330... It helped that his background was a U2 pilot... Holy crap we hired an astronaut! The guy had a kickass attitude and was willing to learn the procedures of an airline... He was just so stoked... That's why he got hired... His new hire class was a cross of every demographic he said...
In my experience and from what and who I have been meeting persistence and attitude is the way to land the job...

Good post, it really is all about attitude.....way more important than what someone flew.

 

[BentOver]

Although.....it is pretty awesome to say "I flew the U2"....If there was a high altitude class in initial I think he'd be the one teaching it!

 

[igneousy2]

Does Alaska have a TPIC requirement? I remember hearing about some Horizon FO's going over a couple years ago.

Horizon pilots have seperate minimums from everyone else that I cannot recall off the top of my head that does not require TPIC, but does require a certain amount of "Horizon time". Numerous pilots have been hired under these minimums.

The last time they opened the hiring window I believe they made it possibl to be hired with 0 Turbine-PIC. If my memory serves me right it was...

3000 tt, 1,000 TPIC
or
3000 tt, 750 PIC(121/135), 2,000 TSIC
or
1500 Tactical Fighter PIC (No TT requirement)

I don't know if anyone was hired under the reduceded minimums. I know if you only qualified under the 750 PIC minimums, then your application was scored lower.

 

[igneousy2]

it seems that most were exceptionally well connected.

That's an understatement.

A couple of kids/kids in laws of former System Chief Pilots, lots of kids/kids in laws of senior senior captains (one and two digit seniority numbers/check airman). At least the earlier classes seemed like about 50% of the new hires were these types, and the other 50% were super high scoring applicants. In the last year we have hired at least 2 Chief Pilots from the regional level, and one former manager of a corporate flight department. That being said, so far, in this hiring spurt, I haven't heard of any atrocities in the hiring, as far as the paper minimums go...i.e. no 800TT hour wonders that just happened to be the son of the Director of Whatever.

In this last applicant pool, I had a couple friends that I checked on, all line pilots that exceeded all minimums, all met the cut-off for the "interview pool", but none met the cutoff score to be called for an interview with there only rec the rec of a lowly line-FO.

I'm sure the "standards" will slowly drop, but I do know that there is no way that I would have been hired in this environment.

 

[Kuma]

Last week I flew with a brand new FO straight off IOE... This was his first 121 job and its in the 330... It helped that his background was a U2 pilot... Holy crap we hired an astronaut! The guy had a kickass attitude and was willing to learn the procedures of an airline... He was just so stoked... That's why he got hired... His new hire class was a cross of every demographic he said...
In my experience and from what and who I have been meeting persistence and attitude is the way to land the job...

Thanks 808! I enjoyed your attitude too. Hawaiian Airlines is awesome and I really like the people I work with. I flew back and forth to LAX with Dan Roman over the past couple of days. This company is full of good people; we definitely landed the ultimate job. Great people, great equipment and great routes.

I look forward to flying with you again.

~Kuma

 

[HA25]

Great people, great equipment and great routes.


~Kuma

I second that assessment.


As an asside my best friends dad flew U2's in the 70's and is now a retired UAL pilot... we used to chat aerodynamics a lot, and from what I can see, few people know and understand high-altitude aerodynamics (something very critical to flying widebody long haul in my view) than U2 pilots.. If we all took the time to learn on our own what you had to know day in and day out to stay safe at those altittudes it would go a long way to better one's understanding of aerodynamics and ultimately safe operation. Airlines win when they hire guys wih your background.

 

[OHGOON]

It is pretty obvious that there is no one sure fire route into a legacy. It's all about timing, background, experience, and who you know and when you knew them.

That being said, I think that those who do the hiring (in this case legacy 121 folks who usually have some military background) prefer to hire themselves. It's human nature to gravitate towards people that share your similarities.

The end result is that 121 guys like to hire 121 experience and 135 guys prefer 135 time, because that is what they are most comfortable with.