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Shiny-Jet-Syndrome: The Career Killer

KQRdr

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FurloughedAgain said:
...In essence, they would rather "PLAY" major airline pilot today -- then interview and BECOME a major airline pilot tomorrow.

well said.
 

No.W.

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It is interesting to me how so many issues nowadays are oversimplified just for the sake of creating a clear-cut binary division. Then, people take sides and the festivities begin. This issue is no where near as clear cut as it sometimes seems on this board. Like so many things, there is a chain of events that has led to the current state of the industry, and no one group or airline can be blamed completely for all of our woes.

There is also the idea of perspective. Being a younger and less experienced regional airline pilot (28 yrs old, about 4000 hours), I came into the industry after a lot of the negative stuff happened. I flight instructed for a very long time compared to most (2.5 yrs) and was furloughed from a regional after 9-11, went back to flight instructing and doing other stuff, then got on with another regional. 9/11 woke me up to the fact that this career is unstable at best. I also had my eyes opened to the fact that was I probably not going to make the "big bucks" or fly "the big jets". I have accepted that, mostly because I am not sure I ever even saw it as a possibility initially (after 9/11 at least).

So I have a different perspective. I really want to improve my QOL at my current carrier. I have plenty of money for my needs (no family...that could get hairy), but I would always like more. However, on the pay side of things, I have never experienced a life with lots of money (aka the CFI whose dad is Delta captain). My dad is a barber:). We had what I consider to be a lot of good stuff...but He never made anywhere near what a Delta captain used to make...or even makes now. I already make, after 2.5 years with a regional, about 3/4 of what my dad as ever made. Can you see how my perspective might be different? How I might be satisified with just hanging at a regional carrier, never having tasted the QOL at a major, this seems just fine:). IF I had tasted that, then gotten furloughed, I might be more frustrated, and my perspective would be different.

I am not trying to stir the pot here, nor am I trying to say one side or the other is right...I think there is more than 2 sides to this thing(as I said before). I am just trying to debunk the assumption that younger pilots in the regional airlines are all afflicted with this SJS thing. Some of us have really thought through the decisions, weighed the cost, and chosen to come aboard anyway. That should be OK.

N
 

Goose Egg

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FurloughedAgain said:
The RJs and ALPA have been the root CAUSE of SJS. It has grown due to unrealistic career expectations sold by flight schools and Kit Darby.

It is sustained by pilots who lack the patience to build experience before jumping into a high performance jet.

...but the destructive force of SJS stems from the regional-jet pilots who are willing to sacrafice their own futures, in order to acquire larger airplanes "today".

In essence, they would rather "PLAY" major airline pilot today -- then interview and BECOME a major airline pilot tomorrow.

Please don't jump down my throat here, because I am trying to present a legitimate concern. The up-and-coming CFIs are being accused of having SJS, but from where I sit, there doesn't appear to be anything that we can do to change the problem. Seriously, look at a CFI's options--a regional is willing to hire us at 1000/100. What are we supposed to do? Turn it down? Freight dog instead because it's more "honorable?" Forget about flying and head to the restaurant biz? I don't see the point of making career progression harder than it has to be. Everyone seems to be long on bitching and short on ideas to fix the problem.

Or is this just about the E170/E190?

Personally, I haven't decided exactly what my career goals in flying are, and that is simply because I don't know what opportunities will be available to me when I gain the proper amount of experience. I'm not bent on flying for an regional airline, but I see that as a viable option--an option that will keep me doing something for a living that I enjoy. What is so wrong about that anyway?

Goose,
Insolent Youngster,
SJS Poster Child
 
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BenderGonzales

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Ok Goose.

Lets assume for a moment that your only choice is to go work for a large jet-regional.

You go to work there and, after a few years growth begins to slow. It looks like it might be more than the advertised "5 years" to upgrade. It may be closer to ten. Its tough to say. With no growth and little attrition there is no way to project upgrade time.

You're going to be an F/O for a long time. Suddenly your dream of flying a 737 for Southwest or a 777 for United seems a long way away.

Then, one day, management comes by and says "If you guys would take a pay cut, we could get some Embraer 190s."

You know that your major airline partner's scope will not PERMIT the outsourcing of E190s, but your management is convinced that they have it handled.

What do you do?

A. $crew those guys! I need to get my 1000 pic turbine so I can go to SWA.
B. Man, that E190 is just as good as a 737! I can upgrade soon and be living the dream!
C. I am willing to give up some pay - after all, when I upgrade i'll make more money and it'll all even out in the end.
D. I sure dont want to do anything that weakens or violates the intent of another airline's collective bargaining agreement.
 

NYCPilot

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Is SJS contagious?
...I think I may have contracted it.

Unfortunately, it may very well be an epidemic among young, low-time pilots such as myself. All the reasons are there but there is very little that an individual can do to sway the influence of the so-called "invisible hand" that guides this or any other industry. It is governed by the principles of economics and human behavior. Both fairly predictable and programmable to a high degree.

Great post though.
 

Popeye0537

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I choose (A) bender....then I go to SWA and sit as an F/O until retirement junior to some Mesa pilot who took a faster upgrade!
 

Goose Egg

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BenderGonzales said:
What do you do?

A. $crew those guys! I need to get my 1000 pic turbine so I can go to SWA.
B. Man, that E190 is just as good as a 737! I can upgrade soon and be living the dream!
C. I am willing to give up some pay - after all, when I upgrade i'll make more money and it'll all even out in the end.
D. I sure dont want to do anything that weakens or violates the intent of another airline's collective bargaining agreement.

No, I hear ya, Bender. What I'm saying is that I don't see how all this is the CFI's or new-hire FO's fault.

But since you asked...

A. If I had a 1000 PIC turbine, I'd be looking for a good corporate job. Screw SWA.
B. An airplane is an airplane, but what's the "dream?"
C. Do you really have a choice here?
D. I don't think it would be right, but again, what recourse do you have? Seems like management would be just as much to blame (or more) as any pilot group.

-Goose
 
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LegacyDriver

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Isn't this the Delta Union's fault for not wanting "those dinky little jets" on their property? If the CRJ had not gotten out the door would this be an issue?
 

180ToTheMarker

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LegacyDriver said:
Isn't this the Delta Union's fault for not wanting "those dinky little jets" on their property? If the CRJ had not gotten out the door would this be an issue?

Maybe...but you have to realize nobody could forsee managements hard-on for these jets and I'm sure nobody fathomed the idea that major airlines would use RJs from ATL to JFK or IAH or DFW, etc. Everyone thought the RJs would replace turboprop flying, not mainline flying. Hindsight is always 20-20.
 

FDJ2

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LegacyDriver said:
Isn't this the Delta Union's fault for not wanting "those dinky little jets" on their property?

Yeah we didn't want 32% of our pay, our pensions, work rules or the Delta pilot medical plan either. You nailed it ace.:rolleyes:
 

~~~^~~~

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kngarthur said:
Why do you people act like the "new CFI" destroyed the industry? The mainline guys destroyed it by taking concessions

Actually - he is correct. The mainline guys negotiated deals to have the regional jets operated by alter ego subsidiaries.

Who allowed outsourcing?
Who controls the airline's code?
Which MEC negotiate the deals?
Which ALPA President signed the contracts and is he from a "regional?"
Which pilot group ratified the scope that sent the airplanes to the shiny jet operators?

I share your repulsion at the DCI "Academy" idea. However, we regional pilots did not create this monster. The RJDC leadership tried to stop it by merging the operationally integrated airlines - but all of that is water under the bridge now.

If some SJS sufferer writes a check to DCI they will be on the list of unsecured creditors when Delta goes Ch. 11, and even worse if they Ch. 7, which apparently is being talked about in financial circles.

~~~^~~~

FDJ2 - will you be FAIIJ3?
 

LegacyDriver

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FDJ2 said:
Yeah we didn't want 32% of our pay, our pensions, work rules or the Delta pilot medical plan either. You nailed it ace.:rolleyes:

I'm just saying that you guys opened the floodgates... Now all the Regionals are jumping all over each other to get the things. As a buddy of mine said, "If we don't get them then Monkey Jet (Mesa) will. I'd rather they come here."
 

2yrs2go

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Just out of curiosity, what was "the old way" of making it to a jet or a major? Could any of you more senior pilots speak to the typical route to the big jet? In this day and age, what is the noble route to an airline career?

Were pilots as miffed back in the 60's and 70's when airlines like North Central, Mohawk, Southern, Piedmont and so on got jets (DC9-10/30, BAC 1-11)?

I tend to agree the "zero to hero" programs create SJS. In fact, last year, I dropped out of one of those programs as I felt I was only learning how to fly airplanes and pass check rides, not how to become a "pilot." Having worked with SJS victims, I should have known better than to sign on for one of those programs.
 
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4

410dude

I think you guys blow this SJS way out of proportion, look at my avatar, they may be smiling and all thumbs up, but it's because they want their new airline to start off well, they do not have SJS.
 

belchfire

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I have SJS...

Scuzzy Jetstream Syndrome...

Wax, heck if they washed them
there wouldn't be enough paint
left to wax!

hehehe
 

kngarthur

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jbDC9 said:
You really don't have a clue do you?

Oh you mean that the legacy carriers are slowly being replaced by the LLC's? While furloughed legacy pilots think they're "entitled" to a specific salary? I think you need to pull your head out of your ass, and go back to school and take a ECON 101 class. I know it would be the first real class you've ever taken.
 

Bdfg1

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kngarthur said:
Oh you mean that the legacy carriers are slowly being replaced by the LLC's? While furloughed legacy pilots think they're "entitled" to a specific salary? I think you need to pull your head out of your ass, and go back to school and take a ECON 101 class. I know it would be the first real class you've ever taken.

Go to bed junior
 

BenderGonzales

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How dare we wish to sustain a livable salary and get in the way of your dreams of flying to far away, romantic destinations while wearing polyesther uniforms and attempting to bed down flight attendants.
 

kngarthur

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BenderGonzales said:
How dare we wish to sustain a livable salary and get in the way of your dreams of flying to far away, romantic destinations while wearing polyesther uniforms and attempting to bed down flight attendants.

I'm sorry how selfish of me. I know it's all about you and your big salary you should be making!
 
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