S Turns in a 737

[TurboS7]

At EAL TGU was the one line that I could hold with no problem. I used to do TGU month after month 15 times each month. That was before they cut down the mountain. Fun and games, I enjoyed it though.

I helped check out AA on the run, Matt Orion was the management pilot's name.

 

[enigma]

Question What are the Two white tanks that you use now then for 31 Express Visual at LGA? and I know ATC has asked me to blow through final for sapcing there before

The tanks are not the Maspeth tanks, the Maspeth tanks were demolished. But, the blinking controllers seem to have lost the memo. The tanks in question are smaller and slightly west of DIALS. They are depicted on the Expressway visual chart as nothing more than a topographical object. Still the controllers insist upon clearing you direct to the tanks, even at night when you can't see the darn things. I just Dial in DIALS into the FMS and punch direct.

enigma

 

[leterrip]

The tanks that are depicted on the chart are the Maspeth tanks or are they those little white ones I used last time?

 

[NoahWerka]

S-turns can be a normal maneuver for any airplane. With 17,000 hours in every thing from a C-150 to a 737 to a J31 to a BE58 I have found that IF done smoothly nobody in the back of the A/C will know what is happening. "Been there, done that" as the old cliche goes. A good pilot knows the limitations of his aircraft and is not afraid to fly it to those limitations. He also has to know his own personal limitations and not be afraid to fly them to the limit. If one is flying an aircraft and CANNOT fly it from the low end of the airspeed indicator to the top end in all configurations appropriate to the speeds, then sooner or later he WILL hurt himself and somebody else. It is called Airmanship.
As for people getting flamed on this board, some of the questions asked by people who have been through pilot training, from PVT- ATP, totally amaze me. Anybody who has been through any kind of pilot training should not have to ask these questions. They should KNOW where to find the answer for themselves. If they can't, they are asking for a violation, or worse. Granted the only stupid question is the one not asked, but what hapened to COMMON SENSE?

 

[minitour]

...what hapened to COMMON SENSE?

They don't teach that one...

-mini

 

[OrphicSeth]

The approach was what it was (we've all been there); but the crosswind touchdown and rollout was very poorly executed. My guess is the pilot's never flown a taildrager... thousands of hours and missed the basics!

It's really incredible the amount of pilots--amateur and professional-- out there who don't use their feet!

Expressway visual, lots of fun!

 

[enigma]

It's really incredible the amount of pilots--amateur and professional-- out there who don't use their feet!

Expressway visual, lots of fun!

And after AA587, the big Bus that lost it's horizontal stab, there are even fewer big iron pilots who use their feet. Unfortunate, but true.

I still have a hard time believing that the FO used full rudder and full reversal three to five times that day, but the outcome is that we now know transport catagory rudders/vertical stabs are not as strong as we thought. In consideration, I've most certainly modified my ideas on rudder usage. However, I do still use rudder to make crosswind landings.

One more thing, the video was of a "hoover". CFM engined 737's don't have a lot of room between the lower cowling and the ground. You can't just set up a nice forward slip. After watching the video again, I think he did a fine job. Everbody's breathing, not bleeding, what more do you want?

enigma

 

[xjcaptain]

Everbody's breathing, not bleeding, what more do you want?

enigma

ummm.........at least the level of technique that a new PVT pilot should be able to attain in crosswind landigs? As said before, maybe some tailwheel time might be a good investment. Safe, but not exactly easy on the equipment or passengers with that amount of crab/sideload at touchdown.

 

[Immelman]

To all of us spam can pilots it looks like he botched the x-wind landing. I can understand how people say that. However, we spam can guys don't know how a 737 works. I was told that certain ones have castering main gear, a design trade-off given the engine nacelle ground proximity? If so it seems like the pilot did a fine job...

 

[enigma]

ummm.........at least the level of technique that a new PVT pilot should be able to attain in crosswind landigs? As said before, maybe some tailwheel time might be a good investment. Safe, but not exactly easy on the equipment or passengers with that amount of crab/sideload at touchdown.

Sorry that my attempt at humor was lost on you. If your profile is correct, you should recognize that crosswind landings in a wing mounted engine transport catagory jet are somewhat different than crosswind landings in most aircraft a new PVT pilot might fly. BTW, I'll assume that you've landed at LGA, and should know that a nice touchdown is only one of numerous considerations a professional pilot needs consider when arriving there.

enigma

 

[CatYaaak]

He definitely hammered it on, sideways. I wonder what his sink rate at touchdown was? Oh well, if we haven't done it at one time or another, we will.


But Angus, lighten up. That whole "You weren't in the cockpit or have experience therefore how dare you question the crew in any regard" thing is just so....so...British or something. Half the posts on Brit-dominated PPRUNE run along those lines to excuse (by those who, lacking any sense of irony, also weren't in the cockpit) pretty much every minor or major f**k-up you can think of, no matter how obvious or blatant.

I mean really, pax are well aware that when they land the cabin isn't supposed to look like a room full of 120 woodpeckers pecking in unison when their heads are snapped.

 

[OrphicSeth]

I'll assume that you've landed at LGA, and should know that a nice touchdown is only one of numerous considerations a professional pilot needs consider when arriving there.

Hahaha! Very true.

 

[xjcaptain]

Sorry that my attempt at humor was lost on you. If your profile is correct, you should recognize that crosswind landings in a wing mounted engine transport catagory jet are somewhat different than crosswind landings in most aircraft a new PVT pilot might fly. BTW, I'll assume that you've landed at LGA, and should know that a nice touchdown is only one of numerous considerations a professional pilot needs consider when arriving there.

enigma

If it was said in humor I apologize, however if you are defending that landing, I don't see the humor. I stick by my statement, many need to learn to use their feet. That was quite the crab angle at touchdown, and it appears that it was a result of some poor technique even considering the aircraft type and limitations. Just because a particular approach is challenging and may have some special considerations, it doesn't change the need for some basic airmanship. Anybody can do a great job under perfect conditions (we'll almost anybody) it's when things get challenging when we need to perform our best.

 

[enigma]

If it was said in humor I apologize, however if you are defending that landing, I don't see the humor. I stick by my statement, many need to learn to use their feet. That was quite the crab angle at touchdown, and it appears that it was a result of some poor technique even considering the aircraft type and limitations. Just because a particular approach is challenging and may have some special considerations, it doesn't change the need for some basic airmanship. Anybody can do a great job under perfect conditions (we'll almost anybody) it's when things get challenging when we need to perform our best.

That was an attempt at humor, and.............

Actually, I will defend the landing. As I will defend your poor landing. Unless, of course, you've never made a bad one. For me, I've managed some pretty crappy landings in my time.

You know, criticizing this approach and and landing is sort of like criticizing Barry Bonds because he only hits a home-run every 7 at bats. He could do better if he only knew how to hold his wrists, etc. yadayadayada.

"Yee who is without sin, cast the first stone"

maybe, I'll make that my signature
enigma

 

[xjcaptain]

I don't recall saying I've never made a bad landing, far from it. But I don't say it's ok that it was a crappy landing because of.........(pick your excuse). If I blow it, I say well that sucked, I better do it better next time. You know what they say about excuses.....They are just like a..holes, everybody has one.

 

[blott]

I did a side slip the other day.... been a while since I did a forward slip....or is it the other way around?

B

My best landing yet.
First flight in a ERJ145. Had 9month vacation prior 'cause of 9/11. First time into LGA too. Previous to 9/11 I flew a SAAB. Sight picture landing was a little off. I was just getting ready to flair when we hit. CFIT. IOE Capt. must carry his balls around in a wagon 'cause he didn't even flinch before we hit. (did it again a few weeks ago...need to quit pullin the J8 breaker)

 

[cfikate]

for my other job, I'm a flight attendant, and I've been on several jets doing S-turns. I haven't had a passenger complain yet, amazingly enough. When we have the wrong movie, or are out of bloody mary mix, they complain. A few S turns on final, and nobody says anything.

 

[bobbysamd]

737 landing

For the benefit of the original poster, who has but 55 hours, you really don't use the wing-low method of crosswind touchdowns that you might use in your 172 in a 737. I asked that of a 737 pilot many years ago when I was a curious new pilot. The reason is obvious when you think about it; you might hit an engine.

Wait until you get a good crosswind day and have your instructor demonstrate the kickout method of crosswind landings.

The 737's touchdown might not have been the greatest, but, after all, isn't any landing that you can walk away from a good landing??

Having said that, recently we had an AA DC-9 or something land short and take out approach lights at DEN. I don't remember all the particulars, but there was an ATC sequencing issue, which caused an unstabilized approach to be set up. I believe a go-around was offered to the DC-9 and it was refused. My reaction would have been to go around - but that would have been me.

 

[Swede]

For the benefit of the original poster, who has but 55 hours, you really don't use the wing-low method of crosswind touchdowns that you might use in your 172 in a 737. I asked that of a 737 pilot many years ago when I was a curious new pilot. The reason is obvious when you think about it; you might hit an engine.

Wait until you get a good crosswind day and have your instructor demonstrate the kickout method of crosswind landings.

Actually, if you look at the gear position and with the aircraft at a normal AOA for touchdown, the gear will shield the engine nicely from contact. There's no problem landing wing-low. I think (referring to the original video) the landing sucked, but I've sucked at times, everyone has. To either overly criticize, or overly defend, I think both are incorrect.

Personally, I think a go-around was in order. Sometimes pride gets in the way of that decision, and it should never do so.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

"I used to do TGU month after month 15 times each month. That was before they cut down the mountain."

That was even more fun

My compliments.

 

[enigma]

Actually, if you look at the gear position and with the aircraft at a normal AOA for touchdown, the gear will shield the engine nicely from contact. There's no problem landing wing-low.

Swede, I'm going to have to differ just a bit here. Why do you think that the 737-300 (and up) CFM engines nacelles are flat on the bottom? I don't remember the exact amount of bank that is acceptable in the 73, but I can tell you that it isn't as much as you'd imagine. On the MD80, you can't bank more than 8 degrees without dragging a wingtip, and I'll bet that the 737 is less margin than that.

As a general statement, I do agree that the landing wasn't good, but that video shows one landing. For all we know, it could have been an initial OE trip for a newhire. Heck, it could have been the flying pilots first 121 landing, we just don't know, and until it can be proven that this particular pilot always makes crappy crosswind landings, I'm not ready to judge him as being a poor pilot.

BTW, my very first 121 DC9 approach and landing were the expressway visual to 31 at LGA. I'll never forget my first DC9 landing. Oh yeah, smooth as a babys behind. Just don't ask about one at TPA later that OE trip.

enigma

 

[Swede]

Enigma, notice I didn't say the pilot was bad, simply that the landing sucked. If one bad landing makes for a bad pilot, we'd all be in trouble!

My position on the 737 nacelle is this... when at TD AOA, the engine is higher up in the air than one might think when looking at it taxiing about. The engines are well forward of the wing, and with a few degrees of pitch, are "elevated" up away from the runway by quite a bit. Now if the touchdown is wing low, AND at a level deck angle, the pilot will have a lot more to worry about than scraping something, he's going to hit hard enough to punch that strut through the wing.

Here's a good picture to illustrate:

http://www.verslo.is/baldur/640/g-ojsw-737-640.jpg

In this picture, imagine the right tires are in contact, and the AOA is at landing, or close to it. Now, roll the airplane to the right. With the tires rather close to the right engine, the right wingtip will probably scrape before the nacelle.

Looking at my engineering outline of the B737, even at 0 degrees deck angle, a line drawn from the tires to the wingtip barely touch the bottom of the nacelle. I think people imagine the engines are farther out on the wings than they are.