s.r. 65 implications

[Cyclone]

The Burns substitute to S. 65 requires the FAA to implement a standard recommended by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) which would allow pilots to continue to work up until their 65th birthday. Under this proposal, the co-pilot on a commercial flight would have to be under age 60.

if approved...why would any f.o. in his right mind agree to fly with an over 60 captain essentially "sitting in his seat."

i hope this doesn't pass. if it does expect first officers to unite..count on many excercising "refuse to fly" with the 60+ group...and it would be the right choice...why should they have to work harder to babysit someone who is taking away from them and making their job harder?

 

[Flying Freddie]

Maybe we ought to have a million FO march on the Capitol. That will show 'em.

 

[The Prussian]

Oh, brother!

 

[Falconjet]

If the older pilot needs to have somebody younger than 60 to fly with, it seems to me that the law is admitting that there is a safety issue with the over 60 person flying. The logic escapes me.

If the over 60 pilot needs a baby sitter why should we even bother? I wonder if the FAA will endorse this logic or attempt to lobby against the bill.

To me it seems that they are shooting themselves in the foot by "qualifying" the ability of the over 60 pilot to be in the cockpit.

I still hope that this doesn't pass the full Senate and House.

FJ

 

[N1kawotg]

I don't think it shot them in the foot. All they did was copy the ICAO rule which is changing next year. I think they did that so it would pass, follow the leader type thing. Stand alone, it probably would be longer then next year to pass, but amend it to copy the already passed ICAO and much of the debating subsides. We'll see now if it passes.

 

[SWA/FO]

The FAA dude that gave us a line check the other day, who is 79 years old (go figure) who is current on the panel and flying the 727 (because he told us) says "it will never change". Looks like life is good working in the FAA @ 79 years old!

 

[Falconjet]

There you go SWA/FO! The old guys are always complaining that there is no other flying they could do in order to fund their court decrees and mortgages.

Now we can plainly see at least 2 other flying career paths for those past 60. Corporate and the FAA. Just get the heII of the way for those who have been furloughed for the past 4 years.

By the way, I am old and I have no desire to fly past 60 nor do I want to ride on an airliner piloted by someone over 60.

Just my opinion. I hope the bill fails in the full house and senate.

FJ

 

[rumrnr78]

Falconjet- Since all the pay scales are rolling back that extra 5 years can mean a lot. Retiring at 60 was great on the old pay scales and pensions but those days are over. Maybe you are just senile and haven't noticed the change in the industry.

PS- Would you fly in a G-V flown by a retired pilot aged 61?

 

[Falconjet]

Yes, if I owned it and was in the left seat.

FJ

 

[pilotyip]

All you guys who want your pilots to retire at age 60, get it in your union contract. Make the company force those old guys out who are stealing your seats.

 

[Cyclone]

pilot yip

who do you think is in charge of the unions...the new guys?

do you think the opinions of the youngsters get equal play time to the old bags?

if union xyz is in favor of a change to s.r. 65...doesn't mean all pilots in that union think it's a good idea...more likely that the old funks who run the union think that it's a good idea.

 

[mnalpha]

retards

sorry old men, I fly with old guys a lot of them are "cool" and can still land an aircraft (makes me sweat when they splash it into the ground) but 65?, give me a break. Its time to hang that sh$t up man. Really after 45-50 the FOs workload X2 making sure you still know what U r doing. Let it go old man, let it go. I for one im sick of watching my grandpa scare the hell outa me. please DEAR GOD NO!!!

 

[Flying Freddie]

sorry old men, I fly with old guys a lot of them are "cool" and can still land an aircraft (makes me sweat when they splash it into the ground) but 65?, give me a break. Its time to hang that sh$t up man. Really after 45-50 the FOs workload X2 making sure you still know what U r doing. Let it go old man, let it go. I for one im sick of watching my grandpa scare the hell outa me. please DEAR GOD NO!!!

And it is good to have a young healty F/O to carry my walker for me. It is hard to get it in the overhead bin.:smash:

 

[semperfido]

good approach briefers

 

[pilotyip]

cyclone, you mean majority rules, my gad what a concept

 

[Jim Smyth]

Really after 45-50 the FOs workload X2 making sure you still know what U r doing.

And what about all those years (Captains workload X3) we were wipeing the milk off you chin when you just got hired keeping you out of trouble!

My, how one forgets where they came from.................................

 

[Flopgut]

And what about all those years (Captains workload X3) we were wipeing the milk off you chin when you just got hired keeping you out of trouble!

My, how one forgets where they came from.................................

Jim: I didn't particuliarly like that persons post either, but really, where did you come from? Your entire career has benefited from pilots before you retiring at 60. Do you think all FOs should feel lucky to fly with you? Are you so wonderful that we should all be delighted to be your subordinate for another 20%-25% of our total careers? Because that is what it is! It is not simply additional years of service at this point, it is only more time in a subordinate position. In the case of senior FOs, we are definitly having to work harder than the guy in the left seat. Conversely, what is it for you? Five extra years to laud your captain's position over everyone.

 

[semperfido]

just do away with FOs and make everyone a captain

 

[LarryinTN]

you mean majority rules, my gad what a concept

Like the majority of ALPA pilots who voted to retain age 60?

 

[pilotyip]

no like congress

 

[SWAdude]

Jim: Your entire career has benefited from pilots before you retiring at 60.

Flopgut,

When I got hired at SWA in 94 we had 3 retirements in my second year. Maybe 5 in my third. It has only been recently that our numbers have gone up. I believe this next year we have 160 or so total retirements which 40 are junior to me. This is our largest year for some time to come. Hardly comparable to the 500 to 600 that some carriers have during their peak years. Jim was hired before me and his upgrade was from growth alone as well as mine.

Jims entire career has not benefited greatly from retirements. Just growth.

 

[Falconjet]

Still those are more than would have occured with an older retirement age.

FJ

 

[Jim Smyth]

Flopgut,

When I got hired at SWA in 94 we had 3 retirements in my second year. Maybe 5 in my third. It has only been recently that our numbers have gone up. I believe this next year we have 160 or so total retirements which 40 are junior to me. This is our largest year for some time to come. Hardly comparable to the 500 to 600 that some carriers have during their peak years. Jim was hired before me and his upgrade was from growth alone as well as mine.

Jims entire career has not benefited greatly from retirements. Just growth.

Bingo, give that man a prize!

Growth is the way to the left seat and the higher pay. I was hired in 1992, rapidly approaching 14 years senority right now. I was hired as pilot #1277 in 1992. Right now I am #924. So thats 353 numbers in 14 years. But the big picture is that we now have 4700+ pilots. Growth is where the answer lies. Retirements is a very small picture at a growth airline. Eventually the airlines will recover and start the trend up again.

 

[SWAdude]

Still those are more than would have occured with an older retirement age.

FJ

But in this point it would have no bearing on the money side of the issue which is the issue.

 

[Cyclone]

bingo

jim

you described something that is true and it is history. the future will be different. southwest has 4700 pilots now. in 14 years do you think they will have 15000+ pilots? i don't but hey...maybe they will. nevertheless the point is your upgrade...was mainly due to growth. things are different now for your f.o.s their upgrades are due to growth (and retirements?). we'll see. 150 a year at your airline is significant...didn't use to be that way. times have changed so your point isn't necessarily valid anymore.

 

[SWAdude]

jim

you described something that is true and it is history. the future will be different. southwest has 4700 pilots now. in 14 years do you think they will have 15000+ pilots? i don't but hey...maybe they will. nevertheless the point is your upgrade...was mainly due to growth. things are different now for your f.o.s their upgrades are due to growth (and retirements?). we'll see. 150 a year at your airline is significant...didn't use to be that way. times have changed so your point isn't necessarily valid anymore.

The point is that Flopgut said Jim benefited from retirements when he did not.

Flopgut said...."Your entire career has benefited from pilots before you retiring at 60."

Of course the increase of retirements will benefit others.

 

[Falconjet]

Just because there weren't as many as there may be now doesn't mean he didn't benefit from the rule. Every pilot that retired at 60 (1 or 1000) was another number each of you moved up over the last 14 years.

Can't argure with that.

FJ

 

[PHXFLYR]

Bingo, give that man a prize!

Growth is the way to the left seat and the higher pay. I was hired in 1992, rapidly approaching 14 years senority right now. I was hired as pilot #1277 in 1992. Right now I am #924. So thats 353 numbers in 14 years. But the big picture is that we now have 4700+ pilots. Growth is where the answer lies. Retirements is a very small picture at a growth airline. Eventually the airlines will recover and start the trend up again.

Maybe so.... But what happens when the growth stops? Sooner or later it will,even for you guys. Just ask any American pilot who experienced all the rapid growth from the mid 80's to the early 90's. Quite a few are flying as 15 year F/Os today.

PHXFLYR

 

[Jim Smyth]

Maybe so.... But what happens when the growth stops? Sooner or later it will,even for you guys. Just ask any American pilot who experienced all the rapid growth from the mid 80's to the early 90's. Quite a few are flying as 15 year F/Os today.

PHXFLYR

Things do change but thats what makes it an interesting career choice. I have been there with no growth, slide backwards down the list, chapter 11, chapter 7. No fun for sure.

I upgraded in 5 years at SWA. Guys right now are running 6-7 years for upgrade. Not too much of a change from 14 years ago and we are setting up in our training center to handle 8000 pilots. It is a numbers game for sure and again growth is the key.

My Dad retired at AA with 47 years senority. He seen the days when guys got hired and sat sideways for 10 years, sat in the right seat for 10 years and then made left seat for 5-10 years to end there career. Then when they were in the "growth" mode guys went from on the street to left seat in 6 years total. There is alot of luck with who we get hired with and who manages the company we work for.

Did I benefit from the guys that went before me, Sure. Not much I could have done either way. Did I ever have a vote on it in my life, nope. When you are in the beginning of your career the last thing you are thinking of is retireing. When you get mid career where I am now, you see it coming. I am ready and have prepared for it. Some guys dont ever want to leave. Thats not my thought process. I dont perticularly like dealing with security,airports,hotels,check rides,rude people etc any more. Only thing I dont like is the fact that you get forced out with no benefits. If they made it to where you got Medicare and Social Security when you left at 60 I would be all for that. In fact make it 55 then. Biggest thing I see that can wipe you out is after you retire you get a medical issue that takes all your retirement funds away. So I guess this is why I look forward to the choice of maybe going past 60 to keep the medical insurance for me and the wife and not have to dip into the retirement funds until needed.

 

[fr8doggie]

My Dad retired at AA with 47 years senority. He seen the days when guys got hired and sat sideways for 10 years, sat in the right seat for 10 years and then made left seat for 5-10 years to end there career.

WOW!! Your father got hired at AA when he was 13! Now that's amazing!