s.r. 65 implications

[SWAdude]

Jim: Your entire career has benefited from pilots before you retiring at 60.

Flopgut,

When I got hired at SWA in 94 we had 3 retirements in my second year. Maybe 5 in my third. It has only been recently that our numbers have gone up. I believe this next year we have 160 or so total retirements which 40 are junior to me. This is our largest year for some time to come. Hardly comparable to the 500 to 600 that some carriers have during their peak years. Jim was hired before me and his upgrade was from growth alone as well as mine.

Jims entire career has not benefited greatly from retirements. Just growth.

 

[Falconjet]

Still those are more than would have occured with an older retirement age.

FJ

 

[Jim Smyth]

Flopgut,

When I got hired at SWA in 94 we had 3 retirements in my second year. Maybe 5 in my third. It has only been recently that our numbers have gone up. I believe this next year we have 160 or so total retirements which 40 are junior to me. This is our largest year for some time to come. Hardly comparable to the 500 to 600 that some carriers have during their peak years. Jim was hired before me and his upgrade was from growth alone as well as mine.

Jims entire career has not benefited greatly from retirements. Just growth.

Bingo, give that man a prize!

Growth is the way to the left seat and the higher pay. I was hired in 1992, rapidly approaching 14 years senority right now. I was hired as pilot #1277 in 1992. Right now I am #924. So thats 353 numbers in 14 years. But the big picture is that we now have 4700+ pilots. Growth is where the answer lies. Retirements is a very small picture at a growth airline. Eventually the airlines will recover and start the trend up again.

 

[SWAdude]

Still those are more than would have occured with an older retirement age.

FJ

But in this point it would have no bearing on the money side of the issue which is the issue.

 

[Cyclone]

bingo

jim

you described something that is true and it is history. the future will be different. southwest has 4700 pilots now. in 14 years do you think they will have 15000+ pilots? i don't but hey...maybe they will. nevertheless the point is your upgrade...was mainly due to growth. things are different now for your f.o.s their upgrades are due to growth (and retirements?). we'll see. 150 a year at your airline is significant...didn't use to be that way. times have changed so your point isn't necessarily valid anymore.

 

[SWAdude]

jim

you described something that is true and it is history. the future will be different. southwest has 4700 pilots now. in 14 years do you think they will have 15000+ pilots? i don't but hey...maybe they will. nevertheless the point is your upgrade...was mainly due to growth. things are different now for your f.o.s their upgrades are due to growth (and retirements?). we'll see. 150 a year at your airline is significant...didn't use to be that way. times have changed so your point isn't necessarily valid anymore.

The point is that Flopgut said Jim benefited from retirements when he did not.

Flopgut said...."Your entire career has benefited from pilots before you retiring at 60."

Of course the increase of retirements will benefit others.

 

[Falconjet]

Just because there weren't as many as there may be now doesn't mean he didn't benefit from the rule. Every pilot that retired at 60 (1 or 1000) was another number each of you moved up over the last 14 years.

Can't argure with that.

FJ

 

[PHXFLYR]

Bingo, give that man a prize!

Growth is the way to the left seat and the higher pay. I was hired in 1992, rapidly approaching 14 years senority right now. I was hired as pilot #1277 in 1992. Right now I am #924. So thats 353 numbers in 14 years. But the big picture is that we now have 4700+ pilots. Growth is where the answer lies. Retirements is a very small picture at a growth airline. Eventually the airlines will recover and start the trend up again.

Maybe so.... But what happens when the growth stops? Sooner or later it will,even for you guys. Just ask any American pilot who experienced all the rapid growth from the mid 80's to the early 90's. Quite a few are flying as 15 year F/Os today.

PHXFLYR

 

[Jim Smyth]

Maybe so.... But what happens when the growth stops? Sooner or later it will,even for you guys. Just ask any American pilot who experienced all the rapid growth from the mid 80's to the early 90's. Quite a few are flying as 15 year F/Os today.

PHXFLYR

Things do change but thats what makes it an interesting career choice. I have been there with no growth, slide backwards down the list, chapter 11, chapter 7. No fun for sure.

I upgraded in 5 years at SWA. Guys right now are running 6-7 years for upgrade. Not too much of a change from 14 years ago and we are setting up in our training center to handle 8000 pilots. It is a numbers game for sure and again growth is the key.

My Dad retired at AA with 47 years senority. He seen the days when guys got hired and sat sideways for 10 years, sat in the right seat for 10 years and then made left seat for 5-10 years to end there career. Then when they were in the "growth" mode guys went from on the street to left seat in 6 years total. There is alot of luck with who we get hired with and who manages the company we work for.

Did I benefit from the guys that went before me, Sure. Not much I could have done either way. Did I ever have a vote on it in my life, nope. When you are in the beginning of your career the last thing you are thinking of is retireing. When you get mid career where I am now, you see it coming. I am ready and have prepared for it. Some guys dont ever want to leave. Thats not my thought process. I dont perticularly like dealing with security,airports,hotels,check rides,rude people etc any more. Only thing I dont like is the fact that you get forced out with no benefits. If they made it to where you got Medicare and Social Security when you left at 60 I would be all for that. In fact make it 55 then. Biggest thing I see that can wipe you out is after you retire you get a medical issue that takes all your retirement funds away. So I guess this is why I look forward to the choice of maybe going past 60 to keep the medical insurance for me and the wife and not have to dip into the retirement funds until needed.

 

[fr8doggie]

My Dad retired at AA with 47 years senority. He seen the days when guys got hired and sat sideways for 10 years, sat in the right seat for 10 years and then made left seat for 5-10 years to end there career.

WOW!! Your father got hired at AA when he was 13! Now that's amazing!

 

[ivauir]

I upgraded in 5 years at SWA. Guys right now are running 6-7 years for upgrade. Not too much of a change from 14 years ago and we are setting up in our training center to handle 8000 pilots. It is a numbers game for sure and again growth is the key.
.

No flame here amigo, but guys are LANCING at 6-7 years. The most Junior captain in PHX has been here over 8 years. I figure it is already going to be 9 years for me to hold a Capt line in PHX and 65 will delay this upgrade by two years (numbers from SWAPA's website). I am not bitching, I love my job and my company, but I think the senior dudes are out of touch when it comes to upgrade expectations (and the effect of SR 65). To make matters worse SR 65 will bring any senority advancement within the captain ranks to a standstill.
Being an FO is a better deal than it used to be, but 6 year upgrade is no longer a realisitc expectation. Don't expect your FO to give you a high five when SR 65 passes. Yeah for you!

 

[727gm]

You guys must have flown with different old guys than I flew with! I found them to be sharp and on the ball, and those who chose to stay after 60 & go back to the engineer seat are the sharpest.

An old joke: "How much fuel, captain?"...... "Ask him(point to FE), I want how much he wants!"

Some of the younger engineers seem like they're not present sometimes (understandable, I guess, waiting for that FO seat).

 

[SWAdude]

Just because there weren't as many as there may be now doesn't mean he didn't benefit from the rule. Every pilot that retired at 60 (1 or 1000) was another number each of you moved up over the last 14 years.

Can't argure with that.

FJ

One pilot is far different than 1000 when you only have 4000.

You seem to think that when one pilot retires that we all see a difference in our quality of life. Many need to leave to see a difference. Unless you see or feel the difference, its meaningless.

 

[SWAdude]

WOW!! Your father got hired at AA when he was 13! Now that's amazing!

When I was at AA we had an engineer retire with 50 years.

Thought you were on to something huh..

 

[SWAdude]

No flame here amigo, but guys are LANCING at 6-7 years. The most Junior captain in PHX has been here over 8 years. I figure it is already going to be 9 years for me to hold a Capt line in PHX and 65 will delay this upgrade by two years (numbers from SWAPA's website). I am not bitching, I love my job and my company, but I think the senior dudes are out of touch when it comes to upgrade expectations (and the effect of SR 65). To make matters worse SR 65 will bring any senority advancement within the captain ranks to a standstill.
Being an FO is a better deal than it used to be, but 6 year upgrade is no longer a realisitc expectation. Don't expect your FO to give you a high five when SR 65 passes. Yeah for you!

Ever since I've been here PHX has always been senior. Not as much as DAL but second to it.

No matter what airline your with, there will always be bases that will take longer to get a seat in.

If I was an FO I certainly wouldn't want this to go forward. Why would I?

I am sincerely neutral on this issue.

 

[ivauir]

Ever since I've been here PHX has always been senior. Not as much as DAL but second to it.

I thought HOU was second ...

No matter what airline your with, there will always be bases that will take longer to get a seat in.
Most junior Capt in MDW (maybe the system?) is a six year and some change guy.
If I was an FO I certainly wouldn't want this to go forward. Why would I?

I am sincerely neutral on this issue.

I am stoic about it. Things change, and we either adapt or die. The rule should never have been 60 and it will eventaully change. The timing of he change may come at an unfortunate time for those in the right seat (and those with no seat), but I can't muster the strength to call my congressman and ask him to vote to keep a bogus rule in place just because I want a new peice of furniture. On the other hand I have low tolerance for those individuals who whine about the unfairness of the rule when they turn 57.

 

[Jim Smyth]

WOW!! Your father got hired at AA when he was 13! Now that's amazing!

More ignorance in aviation! My Dad started as a bagage handler in high school. Went into the Army at 18, took a leave of absense from AA and got his A&I ticket. Came back to American and swung wrenches at Midway airport until 1959. Then he went into the Flight Engineer program and sat sideways for 35 more years. He retired at 64 as a Flight Engineer. There were some of his peers plumbing well into there mid 70's! American has a formula of years of service, age and best 3 of your last 5 pay wise to come up with your pension numbers. So for my Dad, at 64 he hit the majic number. If he would of continued to work past that age you literally loose money. So try not to be a bigger Jerk than you already are since you dont know $hit about aviation!

 

[Jim Smyth]

No flame here amigo, but guys are LANCING at 6-7 years. The most Junior captain in PHX has been here over 8 years. I figure it is already going to be 9 years for me to hold a Capt line in PHX and 65 will delay this upgrade by two years (numbers from SWAPA's website). I am not bitching, I love my job and my company, but I think the senior dudes are out of touch when it comes to upgrade expectations (and the effect of SR 65). To make matters worse SR 65 will bring any senority advancement within the captain ranks to a standstill.
Being an FO is a better deal than it used to be, but 6 year upgrade is no longer a realisitc expectation. Don't expect your FO to give you a high five when SR 65 passes. Yeah for you!

Out of touch is a matter of opinion and depends on where your based now isnt it. Now your not in Chicago are you? Try going to Dallas, it will take ALOT longer than 8 years! But you have been around to know that. PHX is a tad senior to MDW. Guys in Chicago are upgrading in 6-7 years now. Next month we will pass 1000 pilots at Midway! We are approaching 200 flights a day and they are ramping up to 250! Come on out for the winter.

 

[fr8doggie]

So try not to be a bigger Jerk than you already are since you dont know $hit about aviation!

OWWW! That really hurts my feelings.

Congratulations to your father for a very long career at AA.

Seems that he had 47 years of LONGEVITY at AA, not SENIORITY. A minor point perhaps, but one that shows you are not very familiar with commercial aviation terminology.

I meant your father no disrespect. You, on the other hand...

 

[fr8doggie]

When I was at AA we had an engineer retire with 50 years.

Thought you were on to something huh..

Not really. the original post made it sound like the guys father was a pilot, not a pfe.

We had a guy retire at 80 years old a couple of years ago. He was the oldest active aircrewmember in the world at the time.