s.r. 65 implications

[ivauir]

I upgraded in 5 years at SWA. Guys right now are running 6-7 years for upgrade. Not too much of a change from 14 years ago and we are setting up in our training center to handle 8000 pilots. It is a numbers game for sure and again growth is the key.
.

No flame here amigo, but guys are LANCING at 6-7 years. The most Junior captain in PHX has been here over 8 years. I figure it is already going to be 9 years for me to hold a Capt line in PHX and 65 will delay this upgrade by two years (numbers from SWAPA's website). I am not bitching, I love my job and my company, but I think the senior dudes are out of touch when it comes to upgrade expectations (and the effect of SR 65). To make matters worse SR 65 will bring any senority advancement within the captain ranks to a standstill.
Being an FO is a better deal than it used to be, but 6 year upgrade is no longer a realisitc expectation. Don't expect your FO to give you a high five when SR 65 passes. Yeah for you!

 

[727gm]

You guys must have flown with different old guys than I flew with! I found them to be sharp and on the ball, and those who chose to stay after 60 & go back to the engineer seat are the sharpest.

An old joke: "How much fuel, captain?"...... "Ask him(point to FE), I want how much he wants!"

Some of the younger engineers seem like they're not present sometimes (understandable, I guess, waiting for that FO seat).

 

[SWAdude]

Just because there weren't as many as there may be now doesn't mean he didn't benefit from the rule. Every pilot that retired at 60 (1 or 1000) was another number each of you moved up over the last 14 years.

Can't argure with that.

FJ

One pilot is far different than 1000 when you only have 4000.

You seem to think that when one pilot retires that we all see a difference in our quality of life. Many need to leave to see a difference. Unless you see or feel the difference, its meaningless.

 

[SWAdude]

WOW!! Your father got hired at AA when he was 13! Now that's amazing!

When I was at AA we had an engineer retire with 50 years.

Thought you were on to something huh..

 

[SWAdude]

No flame here amigo, but guys are LANCING at 6-7 years. The most Junior captain in PHX has been here over 8 years. I figure it is already going to be 9 years for me to hold a Capt line in PHX and 65 will delay this upgrade by two years (numbers from SWAPA's website). I am not bitching, I love my job and my company, but I think the senior dudes are out of touch when it comes to upgrade expectations (and the effect of SR 65). To make matters worse SR 65 will bring any senority advancement within the captain ranks to a standstill.
Being an FO is a better deal than it used to be, but 6 year upgrade is no longer a realisitc expectation. Don't expect your FO to give you a high five when SR 65 passes. Yeah for you!

Ever since I've been here PHX has always been senior. Not as much as DAL but second to it.

No matter what airline your with, there will always be bases that will take longer to get a seat in.

If I was an FO I certainly wouldn't want this to go forward. Why would I?

I am sincerely neutral on this issue.

 

[ivauir]

Ever since I've been here PHX has always been senior. Not as much as DAL but second to it.

I thought HOU was second ...

No matter what airline your with, there will always be bases that will take longer to get a seat in.
Most junior Capt in MDW (maybe the system?) is a six year and some change guy.
If I was an FO I certainly wouldn't want this to go forward. Why would I?

I am sincerely neutral on this issue.

I am stoic about it. Things change, and we either adapt or die. The rule should never have been 60 and it will eventaully change. The timing of he change may come at an unfortunate time for those in the right seat (and those with no seat), but I can't muster the strength to call my congressman and ask him to vote to keep a bogus rule in place just because I want a new peice of furniture. On the other hand I have low tolerance for those individuals who whine about the unfairness of the rule when they turn 57.

 

[Jim Smyth]

WOW!! Your father got hired at AA when he was 13! Now that's amazing!

More ignorance in aviation! My Dad started as a bagage handler in high school. Went into the Army at 18, took a leave of absense from AA and got his A&I ticket. Came back to American and swung wrenches at Midway airport until 1959. Then he went into the Flight Engineer program and sat sideways for 35 more years. He retired at 64 as a Flight Engineer. There were some of his peers plumbing well into there mid 70's! American has a formula of years of service, age and best 3 of your last 5 pay wise to come up with your pension numbers. So for my Dad, at 64 he hit the majic number. If he would of continued to work past that age you literally loose money. So try not to be a bigger Jerk than you already are since you dont know $hit about aviation!

 

[Jim Smyth]

No flame here amigo, but guys are LANCING at 6-7 years. The most Junior captain in PHX has been here over 8 years. I figure it is already going to be 9 years for me to hold a Capt line in PHX and 65 will delay this upgrade by two years (numbers from SWAPA's website). I am not bitching, I love my job and my company, but I think the senior dudes are out of touch when it comes to upgrade expectations (and the effect of SR 65). To make matters worse SR 65 will bring any senority advancement within the captain ranks to a standstill.
Being an FO is a better deal than it used to be, but 6 year upgrade is no longer a realisitc expectation. Don't expect your FO to give you a high five when SR 65 passes. Yeah for you!

Out of touch is a matter of opinion and depends on where your based now isnt it. Now your not in Chicago are you? Try going to Dallas, it will take ALOT longer than 8 years! But you have been around to know that. PHX is a tad senior to MDW. Guys in Chicago are upgrading in 6-7 years now. Next month we will pass 1000 pilots at Midway! We are approaching 200 flights a day and they are ramping up to 250! Come on out for the winter.

 

[fr8doggie]

So try not to be a bigger Jerk than you already are since you dont know $hit about aviation!

OWWW! That really hurts my feelings.

Congratulations to your father for a very long career at AA.

Seems that he had 47 years of LONGEVITY at AA, not SENIORITY. A minor point perhaps, but one that shows you are not very familiar with commercial aviation terminology.

I meant your father no disrespect. You, on the other hand...

 

[fr8doggie]

When I was at AA we had an engineer retire with 50 years.

Thought you were on to something huh..

Not really. the original post made it sound like the guys father was a pilot, not a pfe.

We had a guy retire at 80 years old a couple of years ago. He was the oldest active aircrewmember in the world at the time.

 

[Spooky 1]

More ignorance in aviation! My Dad started as a bagage handler in high school. Went into the Army at 18, took a leave of absense from AA and got his A&I ticket. Came back to American and swung wrenches at Midway airport until 1959. Then he went into the Flight Engineer program and sat sideways for 35 more years. He retired at 64 as a Flight Engineer. There were some of his peers plumbing well into there mid 70's! American has a formula of years of service, age and best 3 of your last 5 pay wise to come up with your pension numbers. So for my Dad, at 64 he hit the majic number. If he would of continued to work past that age you literally loose money. So try not to be a bigger Jerk than you already are since you dont know $hit about aviation!

Very nicely put! Some guys just don't know sh#t about this business and where it has been, much less how it got here.

 

[ivauir]

Out of touch is a matter of opinion and depends on where your based now isnt it. Now your not in Chicago are you? Try going to Dallas, it will take ALOT longer than 8 years! But you have been around to know that. PHX is a tad senior to MDW. Guys in Chicago are upgrading in 6-7 years now. Next month we will pass 1000 pilots at Midway! We are approaching 200 flights a day and they are ramping up to 250! Come on out for the winter.

"Out of touch" refers to guys who think upgrade can happen in PHX with 5 years ... This is my point - MDW is the junior base right now and even it is a 6-7 year upgrade; so saying upgrade is a 6-7 year proposition is not realistic for the majority of SWA guys. The foot stomper for this thread is that SR 65 will result in 10 year plus FOs at SWA.

I appreciate the invite, but I've thinned out my blood here in the desert, ,

 

[SWAdude]

"Out of touch" refers to guys who think upgrade can happen in PHX with 5 years ... This is my point - MDW is the junior base right now and even it is a 6-7 year upgrade; so saying upgrade is a 6-7 year proposition is not realistic for the majority of SWA guys. The foot stomper for this thread is that SR 65 will result in 10 year plus FOs at SWA.

I appreciate the invite, but I've thinned out my blood here in the desert, ,

If you choose a more senior base then thats a personal choice. A very understandable one at that.

No one promised me a 5 year up grade. I figured it to be more like 8 at the earliest. I upgraded to a lance in 6 years 4 months to one of the most junior bases. Bonus. After I upgraded upgrades went to 4 years. When I got hired they were upgrading at 2 1/2 years. I hit a different window.

To say that us senior dudes are out of touch in upgrade times is somewhat of a slam. Some definitely are as well as some FO's who have been here 1 year and expect to upgrade four years from now because of history. When you do the numbers now I am guessing that they will be upgrading in about 6 or so to the most junior base. Am I out of touch??

 

[Jim Smyth]

"Out of touch" refers to guys who think upgrade can happen in PHX with 5 years ... This is my point - MDW is the junior base right now and even it is a 6-7 year upgrade; so saying upgrade is a 6-7 year proposition is not realistic for the majority of SWA guys. The foot stomper for this thread is that SR 65 will result in 10 year plus FOs at SWA.

I appreciate the invite, but I've thinned out my blood here in the desert, ,

I used the numbers that are familiar to me. I am based at MDW. The point I was making is that it is possible to upgrade at 6-7 years. Guys I fly with now are the ones telling me these numbers. Since is really doesnt apply to me anymore since I already upgraded a while back, you tend to loose track of time frames etc. I most certainly wouldnt have said 6-7 years for Dallas either since I could barely hold it myself. You will have the opportunaty to come to the junior base whenever you turn comes around. If you choose not to do so that your choice. From your flight hours listed (3500) if they are correct, it would seem you are a very new hire with SWA and also must be very young. You have a great future ahead of you at SWA. Even if you sit in the right seat 8-10 years you will still have 20+ in the left seat. Dont sweat it, your turn will come faster than you expect!

 

[benelli]

Remember back when I was a new hire and it was time to head over to SWAPA HQ for the pizza party. Mr. Horse-man comes in and addresses our class with item number 1 being the big bad age 60 rule and how totally unfair it is! Me being a former ALPA guy, I suddenly feel a sharp pain in my backside and say to myself...."Here we go again. Another union crusading for the injustices perpetrated upon the poor indefensible senior guys." My thought was why here..why now? ALPAs membership voted against the change and SWAPA is in favor of the change. Why would SWAPA choose to assume this burden almost entirely on its lonesome? When I finally got out on line, I, with a smirk and a grin received my answere...STOCK OPTIONS. Guys at the top of our seniority list tend to have the most pull when it comes to issues affecting our pilot group. They also are the ones with the most vested in the company. They are the ones who helped make SWA what it is today and God bless em for it. They are the ones who have Herb's ear. They are the North Dallas 40, the Houston guys.... They are also the ones sitting on millions of stock options which, if not exercised before their retirement day are worthless! The problem lies in our present stock price which sits in the 15-16 dollar range. You have millions of options with strike prices in the 15-16 dollar range, which if exercised today would yield .50-1.00 dollar a share. Now say I change the age 60 rule to 65. That gives those guys an extra 5 years of potential upswing in the stock price. Say 2 years from now things are a little rosier and the stock price is in the 30-35 dollar range. Now with a strike price of 15 dollars a share you stand to make 15-20 dollars an option(20X more money). This would be a huge windfall for a bunch of guys who were for so many years compensated with options and not a paycheck. Approach Herb, approach the union. Make the age 60 rule a priority and we are where we are today. This is about MONEY.....not discrimination. The problem with unions is that any gain for one part of the pilot group usually comes at the expense of another...the junior guys. For thoughs of you out there who don't think this will affect you, wake up!! You will see upgrades slow in the best of times. You will see upgrades stop in the worst of times. You will see pilot costs skyrocket as productivity goes down, insurance rates go up.