s.r. 65 implications

[Spooky 1]

More ignorance in aviation! My Dad started as a bagage handler in high school. Went into the Army at 18, took a leave of absense from AA and got his A&I ticket. Came back to American and swung wrenches at Midway airport until 1959. Then he went into the Flight Engineer program and sat sideways for 35 more years. He retired at 64 as a Flight Engineer. There were some of his peers plumbing well into there mid 70's! American has a formula of years of service, age and best 3 of your last 5 pay wise to come up with your pension numbers. So for my Dad, at 64 he hit the majic number. If he would of continued to work past that age you literally loose money. So try not to be a bigger Jerk than you already are since you dont know $hit about aviation!

Very nicely put! Some guys just don't know sh#t about this business and where it has been, much less how it got here.

 

[ivauir]

Out of touch is a matter of opinion and depends on where your based now isnt it. Now your not in Chicago are you? Try going to Dallas, it will take ALOT longer than 8 years! But you have been around to know that. PHX is a tad senior to MDW. Guys in Chicago are upgrading in 6-7 years now. Next month we will pass 1000 pilots at Midway! We are approaching 200 flights a day and they are ramping up to 250! Come on out for the winter.

"Out of touch" refers to guys who think upgrade can happen in PHX with 5 years ... This is my point - MDW is the junior base right now and even it is a 6-7 year upgrade; so saying upgrade is a 6-7 year proposition is not realistic for the majority of SWA guys. The foot stomper for this thread is that SR 65 will result in 10 year plus FOs at SWA.

I appreciate the invite, but I've thinned out my blood here in the desert, ,

 

[SWAdude]

"Out of touch" refers to guys who think upgrade can happen in PHX with 5 years ... This is my point - MDW is the junior base right now and even it is a 6-7 year upgrade; so saying upgrade is a 6-7 year proposition is not realistic for the majority of SWA guys. The foot stomper for this thread is that SR 65 will result in 10 year plus FOs at SWA.

I appreciate the invite, but I've thinned out my blood here in the desert, ,

If you choose a more senior base then thats a personal choice. A very understandable one at that.

No one promised me a 5 year up grade. I figured it to be more like 8 at the earliest. I upgraded to a lance in 6 years 4 months to one of the most junior bases. Bonus. After I upgraded upgrades went to 4 years. When I got hired they were upgrading at 2 1/2 years. I hit a different window.

To say that us senior dudes are out of touch in upgrade times is somewhat of a slam. Some definitely are as well as some FO's who have been here 1 year and expect to upgrade four years from now because of history. When you do the numbers now I am guessing that they will be upgrading in about 6 or so to the most junior base. Am I out of touch??

 

[Jim Smyth]

"Out of touch" refers to guys who think upgrade can happen in PHX with 5 years ... This is my point - MDW is the junior base right now and even it is a 6-7 year upgrade; so saying upgrade is a 6-7 year proposition is not realistic for the majority of SWA guys. The foot stomper for this thread is that SR 65 will result in 10 year plus FOs at SWA.

I appreciate the invite, but I've thinned out my blood here in the desert, ,

I used the numbers that are familiar to me. I am based at MDW. The point I was making is that it is possible to upgrade at 6-7 years. Guys I fly with now are the ones telling me these numbers. Since is really doesnt apply to me anymore since I already upgraded a while back, you tend to loose track of time frames etc. I most certainly wouldnt have said 6-7 years for Dallas either since I could barely hold it myself. You will have the opportunaty to come to the junior base whenever you turn comes around. If you choose not to do so that your choice. From your flight hours listed (3500) if they are correct, it would seem you are a very new hire with SWA and also must be very young. You have a great future ahead of you at SWA. Even if you sit in the right seat 8-10 years you will still have 20+ in the left seat. Dont sweat it, your turn will come faster than you expect!

 

[benelli]

Remember back when I was a new hire and it was time to head over to SWAPA HQ for the pizza party. Mr. Horse-man comes in and addresses our class with item number 1 being the big bad age 60 rule and how totally unfair it is! Me being a former ALPA guy, I suddenly feel a sharp pain in my backside and say to myself...."Here we go again. Another union crusading for the injustices perpetrated upon the poor indefensible senior guys." My thought was why here..why now? ALPAs membership voted against the change and SWAPA is in favor of the change. Why would SWAPA choose to assume this burden almost entirely on its lonesome? When I finally got out on line, I, with a smirk and a grin received my answere...STOCK OPTIONS. Guys at the top of our seniority list tend to have the most pull when it comes to issues affecting our pilot group. They also are the ones with the most vested in the company. They are the ones who helped make SWA what it is today and God bless em for it. They are the ones who have Herb's ear. They are the North Dallas 40, the Houston guys.... They are also the ones sitting on millions of stock options which, if not exercised before their retirement day are worthless! The problem lies in our present stock price which sits in the 15-16 dollar range. You have millions of options with strike prices in the 15-16 dollar range, which if exercised today would yield .50-1.00 dollar a share. Now say I change the age 60 rule to 65. That gives those guys an extra 5 years of potential upswing in the stock price. Say 2 years from now things are a little rosier and the stock price is in the 30-35 dollar range. Now with a strike price of 15 dollars a share you stand to make 15-20 dollars an option(20X more money). This would be a huge windfall for a bunch of guys who were for so many years compensated with options and not a paycheck. Approach Herb, approach the union. Make the age 60 rule a priority and we are where we are today. This is about MONEY.....not discrimination. The problem with unions is that any gain for one part of the pilot group usually comes at the expense of another...the junior guys. For thoughs of you out there who don't think this will affect you, wake up!! You will see upgrades slow in the best of times. You will see upgrades stop in the worst of times. You will see pilot costs skyrocket as productivity goes down, insurance rates go up.

 

[ivauir]

To say that us senior dudes are out of touch in upgrade times is somewhat of a slam. Some definitely are as well as some FO's who have been here 1 year and expect to upgrade four years from now because of history. When you do the numbers now I am guessing that they will be upgrading in about 6 or so to the most junior base. Am I out of touch??

No slam intended and I don't mean to generalize. I do not think you or Jim are out of touch, but I do think there are captiains that are - and FOs with unrealistic expectations. I think it is useful for all of us to be aware that the demographics have changed; it is taking most of us longer to get a major airline job and even at SWA upgrades are also taking longer. (The last class of new hires had an average age of 40 and with SR65 it could take them 10 yeas to upgrade). I recently flew wth a fella that was dead set against ELITT, the Lance program, and age 60. I tried to point out what the combined effects of his desired changes would do to upgrade times and QOL. He said it doesn't matter because I'll be upgrading in two years (I figure another 5-6) ... This is what I mean by out of touch.

 

[ivauir]

You will have the opportunaty to come to the junior base whenever you turn comes around. If you choose not to do so that your choice.
True
From your flight hours listed (3500) if they are correct, it would seem you are a very new hire with SWA and also must be very young.
My flight hours reflect my times when I interviewed. I am a third year FO who spent about 2 years in the pool, so my TT is probably close to 6000 FWIW.
You have a great future ahead of you at SWA.
No argument from me here
Even if you sit in the right seat 8-10 years you will still have 20+ in the left seat.
I wish I were young enough to spend 10 years in the right seat and have 20+ in the left. The average newhire is more than 35, and very few are getting hired in their twenties.
Dont sweat it, your turn will come faster than you expect!

i am not sweating it - there is no other place I'd rather work. Guys, no one promised me a 5 year upgrade or even a 10 year upgrade. Nobody should feel sorry for me, I have a great job with great pay, benefits and work rules. But upgrades are taking longer and longer, I expect that trend to continue and SR65 will make it quite dramatic.

 

[Jim Smyth]

i am not sweating it - there is no other place I'd rather work. Guys, no one promised me a 5 year upgrade or even a 10 year upgrade. Nobody should feel sorry for me, I have a great job with great pay, benefits and work rules. But upgrades are taking longer and longer, I expect that trend to continue and SR65 will make it quite dramatic.

Just curious to what they had projected to your upgrade time when you hired on? Like I said I have been out of that part of the picture for a while now and get info from 5-6 year FO's that I fly with now that are going to be upgrading soon. I keep an older issue of a news letter that SWAPA gave us in 1998 to show guys that I fly with. Unfortunately its in my flight bag at work or I would give you the projections they had on it at that time but from 1998 to now its like day and night difference from what they projected. We have gotten way more airplanes and way more pilots than what they
had planned on. I dont anticipate that to change any time soon. We usually take more planes on that are forcast so I would bet you will be upgrading quicker than what is forcast. CYA around campus.

 

[ivauir]

Just curious to what they had projected to your upgrade time when you hired on? Like I said I have been out of that part of the picture for a while now and get info from 5-6 year FO's that I fly with now that are going to be upgrading soon. I keep an older issue of a news letter that SWAPA gave us in 1998 to show guys that I fly with. Unfortunately its in my flight bag at work or I would give you the projections they had on it at that time but from 1998 to now its like day and night difference from what they projected. We have gotten way more airplanes and way more pilots than what they
had planned on. I dont anticipate that to change any time soon. We usually take more planes on that are forcast so I would bet you will be upgrading quicker than what is forcast. CYA around campus.

I wish I could remeber exaclty, I know it has moved up a several months. i think it was a little over 7. Just for grins I went to the senority projector and tried to figure out what it would take for me to have a 5 year upgrade .....we would have to almost double our current aircraft orders. But upping the retirement age to 65 adds more than 2 years.

I come up with my 9 year figure, becasue I don't want to commute and I'd rather be surpised than dissappointed.

SR65 probably should pass, but SWA will not grow at such a rate that it won't sting for us junior guys.

 

[PHXFLYR]

OWWW! That really hurts my feelings.

Congratulations to your father for a very long career at AA.

Seems that he had 47 years of LONGEVITY at AA, not SENIORITY. A minor point perhaps, but one that shows you are not very familiar with commercial aviation terminology.

I meant your father no disrespect. You, on the other hand...

DOOOOOOOHHHHH..................!!!!!!


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Remember back when I was a new hire and it was time to head over to SWAPA HQ for the pizza party. Mr. Horse-man comes in and addresses our class with item number 1 being the big bad age 60 rule and how totally unfair it is! Me being a former ALPA guy, I suddenly feel a sharp pain in my backside and say to myself...."Here we go again. Another union crusading for the injustices perpetrated upon the poor indefensible senior guys." My thought was why here..why now? ALPAs membership voted against the change and SWAPA is in favor of the change. Why would SWAPA choose to assume this burden almost entirely on its lonesome? When I finally got out on line, I, with a smirk and a grin received my answere...STOCK OPTIONS. Guys at the top of our seniority list tend to have the most pull when it comes to issues affecting our pilot group. They also are the ones with the most vested in the company. They are the ones who helped make SWA what it is today and God bless em for it. They are the ones who have Herb's ear. They are the North Dallas 40, the Houston guys.... They are also the ones sitting on millions of stock options which, if not exercised before their retirement day are worthless! The problem lies in our present stock price which sits in the 15-16 dollar range. You have millions of options with strike prices in the 15-16 dollar range, which if exercised today would yield .50-1.00 dollar a share. Now say I change the age 60 rule to 65. That gives those guys an extra 5 years of potential upswing in the stock price. Say 2 years from now things are a little rosier and the stock price is in the 30-35 dollar range. Now with a strike price of 15 dollars a share you stand to make 15-20 dollars an option(20X more money). This would be a huge windfall for a bunch of guys who were for so many years compensated with options and not a paycheck. Approach Herb, approach the union. Make the age 60 rule a priority and we are where we are today. This is about MONEY.....not discrimination. The problem with unions is that any gain for one part of the pilot group usually comes at the expense of another...the junior guys. For thoughs of you out there who don't think this will affect you, wake up!! You will see upgrades slow in the best of times. You will see upgrades stop in the worst of times. You will see pilot costs skyrocket as productivity goes down, insurance rates go up.

So what happens if AGE 65 retirement becomes a reality, your North Dallas 40 types approach that age and the stock price is STILL at 15 dollars per share? Will they then try to get the retirement age pushed back to 70?? Man...I hope not. Interesting post.

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

QUOTE. From Jim Smyth

Did I benefit from the guys that went before me, Sure. Not much I could have done either way. Did I ever have a vote on it in my life, nope. When you are in the beginning of your career the last thing you are thinking of is retireing. When you get mid career where I am now, you see it coming. I am ready and have prepared for it. Some guys dont ever want to leave. Thats not my thought process. I dont perticularly like dealing with security,airports,hotels,check rides,rude people etc any more. Only thing I dont like is the fact that you get forced out with no benefits. If they made it to where you got Medicare and Social Security when you left at 60 I would be all for that......QUOTE

BINGO, my friend ! And that is where ALPA blew it BIG TIME. When Age 60 retirement became law,ALPA should have pushed for legislation that would have allowed for pilots to collect our Social Security benefits at that age rather than 65 seeing that we were being forced to retire by Go'vt mandate, But nooooo.... not ALPA. They spend the better part of 20 years trying to repeal age 60 in it's entirety only to reverse course on the issue in the early 80's , now wanting to keep it. If they would have been successful in getting legislation on the books allowing us to draw Soc. Security benefits at Age 60 from the onset, this whole Age 65 issue would be a non event. Have a nice Thanksgiving!


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Biggest thing I see that can wipe you out is after you retire you get a medical issue that takes all your retirement funds away. So I guess this is why I look forward to the choice of maybe going past 60 to keep the medical insurance for me and the wife and not have to dip into the retirement funds until needed.[/quote]


Very funny how many people don't realize this fact,especially at my house. When we would talk about retirement issues,all that they would mention is a paycheck after Age 60. I would then ask "Don't you want any post -retirement medical coverage as part of that package ? " Little did they realize that you could have an A plan that payed out in gold buillion but without any sort of medical coverage all it would take ,as you pointed out, was one catostophic illness to wipe out whatever retirement savings you accumulated up to that point. Right now I would say I am a "strong neutral" on the entire Age 60 debate, but if something does'nt change soon regarding medical coverage for retirees,I could see how I could be swayed to the other side of the issue for all the points that you mentioned in your post...a good one,I might add!


PHXFLYR

 

[Benhuntn]

I sure hope they change the age to 65. It will mean I can make a 10 yr career at SWA. It will also mean I can fly as a captain for a couple of yrs. In the mean time I hope the 40 yr old captains I fly with don't mind flying with a 54 yr old F/O who is glad to be here and having a blast flying. If the age 60 rule fails, oh well I will have to go back to bass fishing and deer hunting, but for now I have my fingers crossed that it passes. 10 yrs at SWA even if I don't make captain is better than ten yrs at most other companies flying as a captain and wondering if the next pay check will bounce.

 

[mdf]

First off I don't agree with government rules are that are imposed "just because". Age 60 in my opinion should never have been. That being said, there is no positive spin on this issue for F/O's. Most of us have families, and are incurring the majority of our expenses right now. This is the time we need to make the most money, not later. This is going to be a large financial setback. I know the argument is that I can make it up when I am in my 60's. I hope I get that far. If someone dies early, or medical's out it will never be made up. However, If I am working in my 60's at least I can by all the toy's I always wanted. Even though I will be too old by then to really care.

 

[race#53]

[ wanted. Even though I will be too old by then to really care.[/QUOTE]

mdf,
i am over 60 and waiting for my kids to "buy" some toys so i can get even.
We Grandparents even have sex.
The happiest people have simple needs and not much money but it takes
a lifetime of work to figure that out.

 

[Flopgut]

Wow. It is interesting to hear you SWA folks talk. With the exception of Benelli, you all have world views that do not match what is going on. SWA has momentum adequate to sustain it through this hard time yet you want things like the WA and age 60 to change more than anyone. I would suggest that you consider that this is perhaps a character flaw and less the edgy business instinct you feel boosts you. Fortune and gain is literally dripping from you and yet it is not enough. I can't imagine why anyone who upgrades in 5-8 years in a Boeing/121 operation would begrudge anyone else their personal opinion. Jim Smyth, maybe retirements didn't help out with your career that much, but your retirement will help others. You will have a good career, at 60 you need to let somebody else have a turn. Just telling another that their own good fortunes should be relegated to growth ignores that fact someday growth stops. That suggests, that at some point in the future, you don't care about pilots no different than yourself.

Things are going well enough over there I wish you would recuse yourselves from trying to shape policy in this business. Distracting us all with the WA and age 60 is taking attention from open skies and overseas ownership. You don't want legacies to fail on those issues do you?

 

[mdf]

mdf,
We Grandparents even have sex.


That's way more than I needed to know.


The happiest people have simple needs and not much money but it takes a lifetime of work to figure that out.

I have simple needs. Last night at dinner, my 8 year old son asked me if I was stranded on an island what one possesion would I bring? I said that was easy, my guitar.

I am not going to lose sleep over the age 60 debate. Just saying it is not a windfall for everyone.

 

[mdf]

Wow. It is interesting to hear you SWA folks talk. With the exception of Benelli, you all have world views that do not match what is going on. SWA has momentum adequate to sustain it through this hard time yet you want things like the WA and age 60 to change more than anyone. I would suggest that you consider that this is perhaps a character flaw and less the edgy business instinct you feel boosts you.

I view both the WA and age 60 in the same light. In my eyes they are both wrong. I don't care who wins or loses because they are in place. I would win with the WA being repealed. I would lose with age 60 being repealed. That is how life goes. I would call that integrity, not a character flaw.

 

[mdf]

. Distracting us all with the WA and age 60 is taking attention from open skies and overseas ownership. You don't want legacies to fail on those issues do you?

I do agree that open skies and overseas ownership needs to be addressed.