rumors from both NWA and DAL about 717

[Occam's Razor]

History is tough to challenge.

Sometimes...it's even tough to remember correctly.

Did Scope just "appear"...or was it gained by those pilot groups over time? Give me a Labor-friendly NMB, and a Dept of Labor that helps Labor...and you'll see a recovery of what we've lost, and more gains.

Cuz THAT'S our history.

 

[Tref]

A little off subject, but have A318's ever been discussed at NWA as DC9 replacements?

They looked at it, but decided that with the cost and fuel burns so close to the 319 you'd be better off just getting more 319s and flying with some extra empty seats. Obviously you'd have more flexibility that way as well.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

They looked at it, but decided that with the cost and fuel burns so close to the 319 you'd be better off just getting more 319s and flying with some extra empty seats. Obviously you'd have more flexibility that way as well.

Thanks. Seems to make sense.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Sometimes...it's even tough to remember correctly.

Did Scope just "appear"...or was it gained by those pilot groups over time? Give me a Labor-friendly NMB, and a Dept of Labor that helps Labor...and you'll see a recovery of what we've lost, and more gains.

Cuz THAT'S our history.

Occam, the scope that defines our profession was negotiated by an ALPA that had a religious zeal to stamp out alter ego replacements.

Today the majority of our membership apparently wants this flying to be outsourced. How else do you explain ALPA's agreement to displace DC9 flying to Compass? How else do you explain the ratification of this outsourcing by both the NWA and the Delta pilots?

Our scope problem is first, internal. We are not even enquiring about fixing it when seated at the table.

Do you agree that the consensus at the grass roots level needs to change first? Do you think there is support for really taking it back?

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

They looked at it, but decided that with the cost and fuel burns so close to the 319 you'd be better off just getting more 319s and flying with some extra empty seats. Obviously you'd have more flexibility that way as well.

Apparently there is interest in a A319/320 with the Pratt GTF's. AirBus is already started on the certification and a re-fit will probably be offered to operators of the aircraft. I'm not sure how long it would take to pay off the engine swap, looks like the fuel savings would be about $1.4 to $2.0 million per airframe per year if they hit the 15% number relative to a PW6000.

In my crazy way of thinking, why not hang a pair on the back of a DC9-50, or MD88?

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...x?guid={78772766-E41A-4FE5-A2CD-F239A0EFA16B}

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...pratt-whitneys-obsession-with-the-geared.html

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Do not think that Boeing would want to flight test that one.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam, the scope that defines our profession was negotiated by an ALPA that had a religious zeal to stamp out alter ego replacements.

"Alter ego" is a segment of Scope. I know cuz I was there when we negotiated it. It was negotiated to thwart Lorenzo wannabes from repeating his Texas Air Group tricks. That language is still intact.

RJ or "size" Scope is a different segment of Section 1. It has been under constant pressure because,

A. Mgmt wants cheaper Labor costs on those jets.
B. There is a large number of pilots willing to fly ever-larger jets for very little $$ because they can't go directly to a legacy airline. Why they're willing to do my job for less than me is no mystery.

Today the majority of our membership apparently wants this flying to be outsourced.

Huh?

You're wrong. Incandescently wrong. Galactically wrong.

How else do you explain ALPA's agreement to displace DC9 flying to Compass?

The answer is found in a special book, right after Chapter 10.

How else do you explain the ratification of this outsourcing by both the NWA and the Delta pilots?

How does rape happen?

Our scope problem is first, internal.

Insomuch as you're a Delta pilot, and I'm gonna be one soon; and given you don't seem to understand it very well...I'm going to conditionally agree with you on this one.

With enough leverage (a gun to your kid's head?), I could get you to "agree" to fellate a donkey.

You obviously have an "internal" problem on beasteality agreements.

We are not even enquiring about fixing it when seated at the table.

Um...wrong. The mechanism to generate the leverage has been established and codified in the JPWA. Come to the next Council 1 meeting, watch the Compass pilots talking to their reps, and see if you can figure it out without me drawing a picture for you.

Do you agree that the consensus at the grass roots level needs to change first? Do you think there is support for really taking it back?

No. The "grass roots" at NWA/DAL understand the issue, and trust their MEC(s) to use whatever leverage develops, to enhance Scope.

As with all things contractual, the ability to enhance the contract is often subject to factors we can't control or predict, and our prioritization process.

The desire to protect ourselves from those that would gleefully do our jobs for less [eg: You a year ago] has never waned. Our ability to do it is in that book I mentioned, right before Chapter 12.

 

[Ty Webb]

With enough leverage (a gun to your kid's head?), I could get you to "agree" to fellate a donkey.

Sir, you present this argument as if it is purely hypothetical . . . but is it really?

Heh-heh. Great Post.

Ty

,

 

[JohnDoe]

The "grass roots" at NWA/DAL understand the issue, and trust their MEC(s) to use whatever leverage develops, to enhance Scope.

Oh really??? A little "journalistic lattitude" taken on the blanket statement of "trust their MEC." Do you mean the same MEC that allowed the company to "flex up" monthly maxes not once, not twice, but three times while pilots were on furlough, despite the fact it was expressly prohibited by the contract at that time??

There was some good leverage last summer, and correct me if I'm wrong, but improvements to scope never happened. After all, you did say "whatever leverage develops".....

 

[~~~^~~~]

How does rape happen?

Rape? What drama. Who is this, Doris Lessing? These folks were on their third date and taking about the colors of bridesmaids' dresses. They were no where near the Courthouse steps where the crimes took place... and they decided to keep the baby.

If Delta does displace to Compass, there will be a guy at the Counsel 1 meeting with a Robert's book in one hand, a "staple to one list" resolution in the other and proxies falling out of every pocket. Hope you'll say "hi."

Thanks for your reply. Your post was both interesting and entertaining. My belief that this large RJ outsourcing would be better fixed sooner, than later, remains.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Oh really??? A little "journalistic lattitude" taken on the blanket statement of "trust their MEC." Do you mean the same MEC that allowed the company to "flex up" monthly maxes not once, not twice, but three times while pilots were on furlough, despite the fact it was expressly prohibited by the contract at that time??

Yeah, that one. Thanks for glomming onto an action you were angered by, instead of the actions that put Scope in the contract in the first place. It illustrates a facility I like to call, "selective memory". We remember the bad stuff...but don't always recollect the good stuff.

Here's a test to see how comprehensive your recollection is: What were the quids? What were the consequences of not making the deal?

There was some good leverage last summer, and correct me if I'm wrong, but improvements to scope never happened. After all, you did say "whatever leverage develops".....

Explain the leverage and what we could've gotten with it. Be specific.

After that, read this part carefully: MEC's make mistakes. We can both find plenty of instances where they've just flat screwed-the-pooch. [Note: I can probably list more instances that you, since my fingerprints are on a lot of them!] You'll read nothing from me that suggests MEC's are infallible, or that they should be given a "pass" when they do something stupid. What you WILL read is my advice to measure their decisions by weighing the alternatives present at the time, and how their decisions fit the overall objectives of the pilot group.

My call to trust the MEC is a pragmatic one. They're your peers, you have more influence over them than you do your management, and they've actually done things you can see that have been to your benefit.

In this case, I picked on Fins because he stepped-up and posed the questions. I have no animus toward him, and know that he'll "trust, but verify" the actions of our MEC just as I will.

 

[Occam's Razor]

These folks were on their third date and taking about the colors of bridesmaids' dresses. They were no where near the Courthouse steps where the crimes took place... and they decided to keep the baby.

The ratification of the Scope-chomping contract took place in Bankruptcy. You could look it up.

If Delta does displace to Compass, there will be a guy at the Counsel 1 meeting with a Robert's book in one hand, a "staple to one list" resolution in the other and proxies falling out of every pocket. Hope you'll say "hi."

You missed it. I won't spell it out for you here, but was hoping you'd figure out the significance of having the NWA MEC (Council 1 for now) representing every Compass pilot.

It was not an accident.

'Nuff said.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Occam:

True, it did. But we kept it.

I get that this is an improvement over the DCI mess. We have in effect, a virtual "one list" via a flow and representational structure, that avoids having "one list" so we can justify a C scale. There has been a progressive evolution from Expressjet/CAL, to MidAtlantic, to Compass. But this semi-pregnant approach still leaves ALPA with a DFR problem that is ripe for the birth of another representational fiasco. Going back to your "rape" - - it doesn't matter if the father is national, the MEC, another MEC, or the LEC. The baby still has still got to be fed.

But like MidAtlantic, what happens if we merge with say, Mid Ex, while pilots like me, ACL and Super are off at Compass? If given the morton's fork decision of working for Compass pay during displacement, or working for the same "c" scale as a pilot employed by Delta, I would chose the option that gives me a better shake in the merger this very thread proposes.

If I'm not mistaken, the US Air integration award was not kind to US Air pilots who were "off the property" at MidAtlantic when America West's pilots came on board.

I do trust, and praise the efforts of our MEC, LEC and the legions of volunteers who work to improve our profession. They have done some outstanding work on the JPWA, as well as facilitating and managing their store during this merger. It is my hope that more folks will spend time thinking about these issues and providing direction to their Reps. ... and the debate is fun & informative.

~~~^~~~

 

[Schwanker]

We can both find plenty of instances where they've just flat screwed-the-pooch. [Note: I can probably list more instances that you, since my fingerprints are on a lot of them!]

Now that explains the mess on the back of my dog!

Schwanker

 

[Occam's Razor]

Now that explains the mess on the back of my dog!

You owe me! The puppies woulda been ugly, and I'd have named 'em all "Steenland".