rumors from both NWA and DAL about 717

[Heavy Set]

uh...FlyWolf is not an rj guy, he flys for Midex... probably one of the classiest guys on this board - he remained very level headed during our whole AirTran/Midex merger stuff.

I can see why Flywolf would think this stuff up, his airline is furloughing people out of seniority. He is feeling helpless, and that is understandable. I doubt Dalpa would allow another airline with planes larger than their own RJs to fly for them, but I don't know? I just can't see Dalpa allowing that, and I know plenty of Delta pilots that would agree.(I don't fly for DL anyway) I have a feeling Midwest will be gone sooner than later unfortunately. Good luck to those guys.

 

[FlyWolf]

TV9Driver, thanks, I still think we would have been much better with Airtran than NWA/TPG.

Heavy Set, even though Midwest is furloughing it is NOT out of seniority, your info is wrong.

My initial post was, Midwest is being re-aligned, I didn't say anything about Midwest continuing to fly 717.

Peace and good luck to all.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The key to that is what you posted operate separately. If Mid Ex started to carry DAL passengers then the scope would kick in. The only way around that would be a code share. If a DAL rep said that I would love to know the name because I would call them out.

I agree with what you and General wrote.

NWA and MidEx are competitors. Unless that changes I don't see why MidEx's 717's would be any different than AirTran's, or TWA's, or Hawaiian's.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

There is a lot more to unfold as it pertains to Midex.

AAI can want to at as many airplanes as they want. Fact is that NWA aligned itself with Midex for this very reason.

 

[flying zephyr]

I'm a little confused, doesn't NW own 47% of YX? To say that they are competitors when we all know that they are at least one of the men behind the curtain pulling the strings is "nuts". Even NW guys will tell you if DAL hadn't come in the picture MEH would be flying around in red tails. How is that the same as Airtran, or any other carrier

 

[flying zephyr]

It amazes me how the attitude changes toward approx 400 pilots when all of a sudden, we are carrying "your Pax". Did you know almost every one of YXs flight numbers also have a NW flight number, I have yet to hear complaints from YX or NW pilots about that.
I guess unlike most of you I hope the best for all concerned. I owe many a NW and DAL pilot gratitude for the jumpseat and have nothing but good things to say about them. That being said the fact that we are supposed to be united for a common cause means not much to you.
Are you aware of the payrates that they are offering us? Sixteen year capt at $87/hour and 8 yr FO at $37/hr. I would walk than fly for that not just for me, but if DAL, NWA, MEH, TPG succeed in getting that then what do you think will happen to your paycheck! United we stand, divided management wins! I am sorry that you feel this is all about you, this is bigger than us all and if we don't look at the big picture you can kiss it all goodbye. God bless you all, but maybe it's time to look in the mirror

 

[hockeypilot44]

If I had my way, Midwest would be merged in with NWA and Delta or at the very least stapled with longevity and fences. This is what started the downfall of our industry. Everyone is out for him/herself, and in the end, everyone loses out because of it. I am guessing that some time down the road, every single Midwest pilot will be looking for work.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Did you know almost every one of YXs flight numbers also have a NW flight number....

Are you aware of the payrates that they are offering us? Sixteen year capt at $87/hour and 8 yr FO at $37/hr.

Frankly, there is a lot more information needed to figure this out. I was not aware of the expanded codeshare between NWA and MidEx until I just looked it up... and I doubt DAL has an interest in adding the 717 to the property. The E175 and CRJ900's are 90 seat jets (with 76 seats in them). There is not enough justification for a 717 program when MD90's are much more capable for the same (or less) acquisition cost.

Those pay rates would make even a staple job a significant increase. Not that I'm suggesting, or advocating anything.

Any NWA pilots' perspectives on this?

 

[hockeypilot44]

Frankly, there is a lot more information needed to figure this out. I was not aware of the expanded codeshare between NWA and MidEx until I just looked it up... and I doubt DAL has an interest in adding the 717 to the property. The E175 and CRJ900's are 90 seat jets (with 76 seats in them). There is not enough justification for a 717 program when MD90's are much more capable for the same (or less) acquisition cost.

Those pay rates would make even a staple job a significant increase. Not that I'm suggesting, or advocating anything.

Any NWA pilots' perspectives on this?

Does my opinion not count? The Midwest captains have extremely competitive salaries with Northwest and Delta. A lot of them make more than Delta/NWA narrow body captains. The Midwest first officer pay scale is less, but it still puts regional wages to shame. I would have no problem merging them into the new DAL/NWA list. This is not some fly-by-night carrier. It is established and has been around for a while. It is just an extremely small carrier that is being mismanaged and squeezed by Northwest and Airtran.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Your opinion counts and has been noted.

For the record, I don't have an opinion on this and mine does not count. I'm just trying to learn about this situation and am curious what the NWA pilots' take on this is.

Not that it will happen anyway. I don't expect the 717 to be flown by Delta. Delta has enough on it's plate already.

 

[wings421]

Deleted

 

[jetflier]

Your opinion counts and has been noted.

For the record, I don't have an opinion on this and mine does not count. I'm just trying to learn about this situation and am curious what the NWA pilots' take on this is.

Not that it will happen anyway. I don't expect the 717 to be flown by Delta. Delta has enough on it's plate already.

Since creating the equity stake in Midwest, NWA has been code sharing and putting pressure on Air Tran's growth plans at MKE.
As we move closer to the official DAL/NWA merger at the end of 2008, Midwest is becomming weaker and much smaller.
In my opinion, Midwest will appeal to the DOJ as well as DAL/NWA to let them help the Midwest employees by absorbing them and saving employee jobs. All this with the blessing of a pending election, making the local incumbents in MKE look like winners. And, DAL/NWA win the prize...
(this was most likely the master plan to get it aproved by the DOJ)

 

[SpauldingSmails]

A little off subject, but have A318's ever been discussed at NWA as DC9 replacements?

 

[nwaredtail]

A little off subject, but have A318's ever been discussed at NWA as DC9 replacements?

Yes, as well as the 717, CRJ new product. IMO, there will never be a DC-9 replacement. Just more E-175's and CRJ-900's. DAL and NWA pilots have shown a willingness to give up scope at every contract, regardless at how they put the lipstick on it.

History is tough to challenge.

 

[michael707767]

DAL and NWA pilots have shown a willingness to give up scope at every contract, regardless at how they put the lipstick on it.

wow, someone who understands what is going on.

 

[Occam's Razor]

History is tough to challenge.

Sometimes...it's even tough to remember correctly.

Did Scope just "appear"...or was it gained by those pilot groups over time? Give me a Labor-friendly NMB, and a Dept of Labor that helps Labor...and you'll see a recovery of what we've lost, and more gains.

Cuz THAT'S our history.

 

[Tref]

A little off subject, but have A318's ever been discussed at NWA as DC9 replacements?

They looked at it, but decided that with the cost and fuel burns so close to the 319 you'd be better off just getting more 319s and flying with some extra empty seats. Obviously you'd have more flexibility that way as well.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

They looked at it, but decided that with the cost and fuel burns so close to the 319 you'd be better off just getting more 319s and flying with some extra empty seats. Obviously you'd have more flexibility that way as well.

Thanks. Seems to make sense.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Sometimes...it's even tough to remember correctly.

Did Scope just "appear"...or was it gained by those pilot groups over time? Give me a Labor-friendly NMB, and a Dept of Labor that helps Labor...and you'll see a recovery of what we've lost, and more gains.

Cuz THAT'S our history.

Occam, the scope that defines our profession was negotiated by an ALPA that had a religious zeal to stamp out alter ego replacements.

Today the majority of our membership apparently wants this flying to be outsourced. How else do you explain ALPA's agreement to displace DC9 flying to Compass? How else do you explain the ratification of this outsourcing by both the NWA and the Delta pilots?

Our scope problem is first, internal. We are not even enquiring about fixing it when seated at the table.

Do you agree that the consensus at the grass roots level needs to change first? Do you think there is support for really taking it back?

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

They looked at it, but decided that with the cost and fuel burns so close to the 319 you'd be better off just getting more 319s and flying with some extra empty seats. Obviously you'd have more flexibility that way as well.

Apparently there is interest in a A319/320 with the Pratt GTF's. AirBus is already started on the certification and a re-fit will probably be offered to operators of the aircraft. I'm not sure how long it would take to pay off the engine swap, looks like the fuel savings would be about $1.4 to $2.0 million per airframe per year if they hit the 15% number relative to a PW6000.

In my crazy way of thinking, why not hang a pair on the back of a DC9-50, or MD88?

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...x?guid={78772766-E41A-4FE5-A2CD-F239A0EFA16B}

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...pratt-whitneys-obsession-with-the-geared.html

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Do not think that Boeing would want to flight test that one.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam, the scope that defines our profession was negotiated by an ALPA that had a religious zeal to stamp out alter ego replacements.

"Alter ego" is a segment of Scope. I know cuz I was there when we negotiated it. It was negotiated to thwart Lorenzo wannabes from repeating his Texas Air Group tricks. That language is still intact.

RJ or "size" Scope is a different segment of Section 1. It has been under constant pressure because,

A. Mgmt wants cheaper Labor costs on those jets.
B. There is a large number of pilots willing to fly ever-larger jets for very little $$ because they can't go directly to a legacy airline. Why they're willing to do my job for less than me is no mystery.

Today the majority of our membership apparently wants this flying to be outsourced.

Huh?

You're wrong. Incandescently wrong. Galactically wrong.

How else do you explain ALPA's agreement to displace DC9 flying to Compass?

The answer is found in a special book, right after Chapter 10.

How else do you explain the ratification of this outsourcing by both the NWA and the Delta pilots?

How does rape happen?

Our scope problem is first, internal.

Insomuch as you're a Delta pilot, and I'm gonna be one soon; and given you don't seem to understand it very well...I'm going to conditionally agree with you on this one.

With enough leverage (a gun to your kid's head?), I could get you to "agree" to fellate a donkey.

You obviously have an "internal" problem on beasteality agreements.

We are not even enquiring about fixing it when seated at the table.

Um...wrong. The mechanism to generate the leverage has been established and codified in the JPWA. Come to the next Council 1 meeting, watch the Compass pilots talking to their reps, and see if you can figure it out without me drawing a picture for you.

Do you agree that the consensus at the grass roots level needs to change first? Do you think there is support for really taking it back?

No. The "grass roots" at NWA/DAL understand the issue, and trust their MEC(s) to use whatever leverage develops, to enhance Scope.

As with all things contractual, the ability to enhance the contract is often subject to factors we can't control or predict, and our prioritization process.

The desire to protect ourselves from those that would gleefully do our jobs for less [eg: You a year ago] has never waned. Our ability to do it is in that book I mentioned, right before Chapter 12.

 

[Ty Webb]

With enough leverage (a gun to your kid's head?), I could get you to "agree" to fellate a donkey.

Sir, you present this argument as if it is purely hypothetical . . . but is it really?

Heh-heh. Great Post.

Ty

,

 

[JohnDoe]

The "grass roots" at NWA/DAL understand the issue, and trust their MEC(s) to use whatever leverage develops, to enhance Scope.

Oh really??? A little "journalistic lattitude" taken on the blanket statement of "trust their MEC." Do you mean the same MEC that allowed the company to "flex up" monthly maxes not once, not twice, but three times while pilots were on furlough, despite the fact it was expressly prohibited by the contract at that time??

There was some good leverage last summer, and correct me if I'm wrong, but improvements to scope never happened. After all, you did say "whatever leverage develops".....

 

[~~~^~~~]

How does rape happen?

Rape? What drama. Who is this, Doris Lessing? These folks were on their third date and taking about the colors of bridesmaids' dresses. They were no where near the Courthouse steps where the crimes took place... and they decided to keep the baby.

If Delta does displace to Compass, there will be a guy at the Counsel 1 meeting with a Robert's book in one hand, a "staple to one list" resolution in the other and proxies falling out of every pocket. Hope you'll say "hi."

Thanks for your reply. Your post was both interesting and entertaining. My belief that this large RJ outsourcing would be better fixed sooner, than later, remains.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Oh really??? A little "journalistic lattitude" taken on the blanket statement of "trust their MEC." Do you mean the same MEC that allowed the company to "flex up" monthly maxes not once, not twice, but three times while pilots were on furlough, despite the fact it was expressly prohibited by the contract at that time??

Yeah, that one. Thanks for glomming onto an action you were angered by, instead of the actions that put Scope in the contract in the first place. It illustrates a facility I like to call, "selective memory". We remember the bad stuff...but don't always recollect the good stuff.

Here's a test to see how comprehensive your recollection is: What were the quids? What were the consequences of not making the deal?

There was some good leverage last summer, and correct me if I'm wrong, but improvements to scope never happened. After all, you did say "whatever leverage develops".....

Explain the leverage and what we could've gotten with it. Be specific.

After that, read this part carefully: MEC's make mistakes. We can both find plenty of instances where they've just flat screwed-the-pooch. [Note: I can probably list more instances that you, since my fingerprints are on a lot of them!] You'll read nothing from me that suggests MEC's are infallible, or that they should be given a "pass" when they do something stupid. What you WILL read is my advice to measure their decisions by weighing the alternatives present at the time, and how their decisions fit the overall objectives of the pilot group.

My call to trust the MEC is a pragmatic one. They're your peers, you have more influence over them than you do your management, and they've actually done things you can see that have been to your benefit.

In this case, I picked on Fins because he stepped-up and posed the questions. I have no animus toward him, and know that he'll "trust, but verify" the actions of our MEC just as I will.

 

[Occam's Razor]

These folks were on their third date and taking about the colors of bridesmaids' dresses. They were no where near the Courthouse steps where the crimes took place... and they decided to keep the baby.

The ratification of the Scope-chomping contract took place in Bankruptcy. You could look it up.

If Delta does displace to Compass, there will be a guy at the Counsel 1 meeting with a Robert's book in one hand, a "staple to one list" resolution in the other and proxies falling out of every pocket. Hope you'll say "hi."

You missed it. I won't spell it out for you here, but was hoping you'd figure out the significance of having the NWA MEC (Council 1 for now) representing every Compass pilot.

It was not an accident.

'Nuff said.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Occam:

True, it did. But we kept it.

I get that this is an improvement over the DCI mess. We have in effect, a virtual "one list" via a flow and representational structure, that avoids having "one list" so we can justify a C scale. There has been a progressive evolution from Expressjet/CAL, to MidAtlantic, to Compass. But this semi-pregnant approach still leaves ALPA with a DFR problem that is ripe for the birth of another representational fiasco. Going back to your "rape" - - it doesn't matter if the father is national, the MEC, another MEC, or the LEC. The baby still has still got to be fed.

But like MidAtlantic, what happens if we merge with say, Mid Ex, while pilots like me, ACL and Super are off at Compass? If given the morton's fork decision of working for Compass pay during displacement, or working for the same "c" scale as a pilot employed by Delta, I would chose the option that gives me a better shake in the merger this very thread proposes.

If I'm not mistaken, the US Air integration award was not kind to US Air pilots who were "off the property" at MidAtlantic when America West's pilots came on board.

I do trust, and praise the efforts of our MEC, LEC and the legions of volunteers who work to improve our profession. They have done some outstanding work on the JPWA, as well as facilitating and managing their store during this merger. It is my hope that more folks will spend time thinking about these issues and providing direction to their Reps. ... and the debate is fun & informative.

~~~^~~~

 

[Schwanker]

We can both find plenty of instances where they've just flat screwed-the-pooch. [Note: I can probably list more instances that you, since my fingerprints are on a lot of them!]

Now that explains the mess on the back of my dog!

Schwanker

 

[Occam's Razor]

Now that explains the mess on the back of my dog!

You owe me! The puppies woulda been ugly, and I'd have named 'em all "Steenland".