Rolling Rest Flexjet Pilot Alert

[Fozzy]

What did they say?

Ya, please post a reference. Thanks.

 

[EatSleepFly]

What did they say?

Basically that if you're dumb enough to answer the phone during your rest period, then you deserve what you get:

[FONT=&quot]December 9, 1999[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Mr. James R. Knight II[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aviation Technical Specialist[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aviation Services Department[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association 421 Aviation Way[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Frederick, MD 21701-4798[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Mr. Knight:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your letter dated September 8, 1999, to the Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Administration (FAA), concerning rest requirements under 14 CFR section 135.263(b). Specifically, you ask, "During the crew rest period, may the certificate holder initiate contact with the crew to assign a trip, which is scheduled to begin “after” the crews rest period?" The answer to your question is discussed below.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]14 CFR section 135.263(b) states that no certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The FAA has consistently interpreted its "rest"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]requirements to be satisfied only if the rest time is determined prospectively, is continuous, is free from all duty and restraint, and is free from the responsibility for work should the occasion arise. A period of time during which a pilot has a present responsibility for work should the occasion arise, does not qualify as a rest period. The question you ask, however, concerns the situation where the pilot does not have a present responsibility to do anything for the air carrier, not even to answer the telephone or a pager. This pilot, when contacted, is merely being notified of a flight assignment to take place at the conclusion of his or her rest period. The pilot, during the rest period, was not obligated to be available to answer the telephone or a pager. Accordingly, a certificate holder may attempt to initiate contact with a flight crewmember to assign a trip scheduled to begin after the required rest period without violating 14 CFR Section 135.263(b). If the air carrier successfully contacts the pilot in such a situation, that contact, which the crewmember did not have to make her or him available for, would not interrupt the continuous rest provision of 14 CFR Section 135.263(b).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We hope this satisfactorily answers your question. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sincerely,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Donald P. Byrne[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Assistant Chief Counsel[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Regulations Division[/FONT]

Not exactly anything new...

 

[gunfyter]

Basically that if you're dumb enough to answer the phone during your rest period, then you deserve what you get:



Not exactly anything new...

Thanks.... Thats correct.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

okay I think we can agree that IF you answer you are screwed. but the question is, do we HAVE to answer?

 

[Hobbes]

Basically that if you're dumb enough to answer the phone during your rest period, then you deserve what you get:



Not exactly anything new...

His point was that if you are REQUIRED to answer the phone, you should be on duty. The Frac companies have all tried to make the pilot believe they HAD to answer phones when not on duty. Most of the frax pilots have shone the beam of truth through that deceipt. IBT1108 was crucial to that happening at Flops. Now for Flops the time actually on duty may suck, but they can't touch you on rest.

 

[notapilot]

This is my opinion only. When you call in the middle of your rest at say 10pm you are sending the message to the company that our 10 hours means nothing. In fact there are many crewmembers openly trying to convince the company that scheduling should send Blackberry messages for changes even if the crew is in rest. These crewmembers argue electronic notification is not an interuption of rest. We all need to be on the same page if this is ever going to change. Calling in the middle of rest and asking for electronic notifications during rest are not solutions, they send the wrong message to the company. We have many people trying to fight for these these important changes. One change needed is for no contact during our 10 hours. How can we convince them this is important if we have crewmembers calling in the middle of rest on there own.

 

[notapilot]

Now that is funny. Are you kidding me, how could I not understand this???? I am contacting them to see if they have some information that will benifit me. Not to get a koolaid fix. Come on you have got to be smarter than that.

If being called in the middle of the night bothers you so bad go work in the 121 world and you then know how, what and where well in advanced.

I was referring to you not understanding what rolling rest is. It is not about contact during your 10 hours of rest. You not understanding what it is and then telling people to quit if they don't like it says alot.

 

[SDCFI]

This is my opinion only. When you call in the middle of your rest at say 10pm you are sending the message to the company that our 10 hours means nothing. In fact there are many crewmembers openly trying to convince the company that scheduling should send Blackberry messages for changes even if the crew is in rest. These crewmembers argue electronic notification is not an interuption of rest. We all need to be on the same page if this is ever going to change. Calling in the middle of rest and asking for electronic notifications during rest are not solutions, they send the wrong message to the company. We have many people trying to fight for these these important changes. One change needed is for no contact during our 10 hours. How can we convince them this is important if we have crewmembers calling in the middle of rest on there own.

The problem isn't being contacted during the 10 hours, the problem is being expected to be available for a 3am show after being given a brief for a late(r) show. People are texting in at night to see if there's been any changes since they went into rest, that way at least they know they'll be getting up early and not stay up too late. The other problem is people (Captains) feeling obligated to accept an early callout and other crew members (FO's and FA's) not saying no when called by the Captain with the bad news. The company has us by the ballz because we know if they decide to take disciplinary action against us for not picking up the phone (they say they won't but who really knows), we have no recourse without a contract/union. DG said at the Waterview meeting duty/rest was the next biggest issue to tackle after pay, and they're putting together a committee to look into it. Stall tactic if you ask me. They could fix it tomorrow if they really wanted to. In fact they could have fixed it a long time ago but they don't want to give up the financial benefits. I don't think it's a coincidence that we have the lowest charter rate in the industry and arguably the most efficient staffing on a crew/plane ratio. We work more days and have more flexible scheduling (rolling rest) than the other guys, doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. This could be solved, at least for now, very simply. When you shutdown you get a brief for the next day. If it's a late show dispatch decides whether or not they need you to be available for an early callout. If they do they let you know then, and your rest officially ends at the designated callout time. Of course this means they can't use you late in the day, but if they plan ahead they'll make sure they have enough crews with late starts who can cover. If they don't need you to be available you're in rest and not contactable until your scheduled show...period. We also need a set availability period for home reserve and hotel with no assignment so we can plan our sleep accordingly. This crap about making crews responsible for their rest for Day 1 is blatantly illegal. In the TAG revocation letter it specifically mentioned crews were being tasked with telling the company when they got their rest, and that was against regulations. The company must officially put a crew member into rest otherwise it's not prospective in nature.

 

[Av8tor]

Even in the FOM it states you only have 2hrs to drink if you are on DUTY less than 14 and 4hrs to drink if you are on duty more than 14. Even if technically you are supposed to have say a 19 hour lay over. They expect you to be available after your rest. They will drag this till the end. No doubt, that is the Flex way. Flex backwards for them. No flexjet pilot deserves only a 10hr or 12hr layover. It happens all the time. Why and how do all the other Fracs do it? Because the pilots put a stop to it.

 

[FLYLOW22]

okay I think we can agree that IF you answer you are screwed. but the question is, do we HAVE to answer?

Taxes and death: The only things in life that are mandatory.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Why should he have to work for a 121 carrier. Flex is the only Frac that has floating rest.

what about CS? whats their policy?

 

[T Heavy]

I was referring to you not understanding what rolling rest is. It is not about contact during your 10 hours of rest. You not understanding what it is and then telling people to quit if they don't like it says alot.

Why is it you think I don't understand what rolling rest is? Humm let me see if I can come up with an exsample: You get no assigment the night before coming on duty. So lets say you go to bed at 2100 and wake at 0730 and still no assigment. Then in the middle of dinner you get a message that you have an airline flight at 2000 to pick up an aircraft at some location. Mind you the whole day you were not told that you are on res. nor could you have a drink because you are still responsible to the company until released. They still have the right to plan you for 14 more hours starting at 1900, so let see that would put back into a manditory rest at 0900 the next morning. According to .267 that is perfectly legal from the operators stand point.

Now and this is where I can't stand pilots. I know it is not safe to run for 26 hours and some change with no sleep, but what I find is no one has the stones to say no that is not safe. Normally I have to hear the sob story after the fact how the company is running them unsafe, blah blah blah.

So like I said if standing up for yourself as a professional bothers you then go work in the 121 world where you will know a month or more in advanced when you work, where you'll be and what time you will be getting there. The type of operation you are working for has a product and that product is ON DEMAND AIRPLANES. This is just the reality of what we have signed up for. Now don't misconstrue what I am saying. Don't let the company abuse you but don't complain when it is time to go to work either even if going to work has changed in the last hour.

Ok gotta go now the Blackberry is going off.

All other inquires can be sent to my lawyer EatSleepFly.

 

[gunfyter]

Why is it you think I don't understand what rolling rest is? Humm let me see if I can come up with an exsample: You get no assigment the night before coming on duty. So lets say you go to bed at 2100 and wake at 0730 and still no assigment. Then in the middle of dinner you get a message that you have an airline flight at 2000 to pick up an aircraft at some location. Mind you the whole day you were not told that you are on res. nor could you have a drink because you are still responsible to the company until released. They still have the right to plan you for 14 more hours starting at 1900, so let see that would put back into a manditory rest at 0900 the next morning. According to .267 that is perfectly legal from the operators stand point.
.

Not legal. Where was your rest? The whole day while you were waiting with a Responsibility to answer phone or pages and report to flight duty when called -- Does NOT qualifiy as Rest --

So when you finish your trip you cannot lookback and find 10 hrs of Rest in last 24 hrs. You find 10 hrs you were not "on-duty". But 135.267 requires you to find REST... not 10 hrs of not being on duty.

 

[Av8tor]

T heavy. Enjoy Flex, you will be another cookie boy.

 

[notapilot]

Well then show Flex how serious you are and QUIT. Otherwise talk to someone who can do something about it. I'll give a hint this may come as a shock and you may need to nap awhile, BUT THEY ARE NOT ON THIS FORUM.
The other thing I have never been call or messaged during rest unless I contacted them first. But if this is happening to you then you need to talk with your ACP.
Also should you find yourself in a position that may compromise safety or regulations, do yourself a favor and stand up for yourself like a professional. WTF, you know what just quit.

My apologies. This was your response to this rolling rest topic. Reading your response about calls during rest and not about "rolling rest" it is easy to assume you are talkng about something different. I simply misunderstood your message. I stand behind my distain for you and others that have the take it or leave it attitude. That is not how we get anywhere.

 

[T Heavy]

Not legal. Where was your rest? The whole day while you were waiting with a Responsibility to answer phone or pages and report to flight duty when called -- Does NOT qualifiy as Rest --

So when you finish your trip you cannot lookback and find 10 hrs of Rest in last 24 hrs. You find 10 hrs you were not "on-duty". But 135.267 requires you to find REST... not 10 hrs of not being on duty.

I understand your point. But bitching about it here is not going to solve it that is my only point for this thread.

 

[T Heavy]

T heavy. Enjoy Flex, you will be another cookie boy.

I am not going to miss the chance to keep my mouth shut on this one.

 

[flexpilot]

FlexJet pilots have all the ammunition to end rolling rest. Part 135, 91K, the letter posted below and a set of _ _ _ _ 's is all they need.

End of day conversation.

Scheduling: We're shutting you down at 1700 local. Your trip tomorrow is 0700 show time.

Pilot: Ok thanks. Just to clarify, I am in rest until 0700?

Scheduling: Well, we do have trips in the area. We may call you after 10 hours.

Pilot: OK, I can do that. So you are going to put us on duty at 0300? Because as you may or may not know, for me to be in rest I must be free from all duty and restraint, and free from the responsibility for work should the occasion arise. This is IAW a letter from the assistant chief counsel, FAA.

Scheduling:Huh?

Pilot: Put me through to the Chief Pilot.

Read the letter. It's all laid out for you. Grow a pair and make them play by the rules.



December 9, 1999 [FONT=&quot]Mr. James R. Knight II[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aviation Technical Specialist[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aviation Services Department[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association 421 Aviation Way[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Frederick, MD 21701-4798[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Mr. Knight:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your letter dated September 8, 1999, to the Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Administration (FAA), concerning rest requirements under 14 CFR section 135.263(b). Specifically, you ask, "During the crew rest period, may the certificate holder initiate contact with the crew to assign a trip, which is scheduled to begin “after” the crews rest period?" The answer to your question is discussed below.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]14 CFR section 135.263(b) states that no certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The FAA has consistently interpreted its "rest"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]requirements to be satisfied only if the rest time is determined prospectively, is continuous, is free from all duty and restraint, and is free from the responsibility for work should the occasion arise. A period of time during which a pilot has a present responsibility for work should the occasion arise, does not qualify as a rest period. The question you ask, however, concerns the situation where the pilot does not have a present responsibility to do anything for the air carrier, not even to answer the telephone or a pager. This pilot, when contacted, is merely being notified of a flight assignment to take place at the conclusion of his or her rest period. The pilot, during the rest period, was not obligated to be available to answer the telephone or a pager. Accordingly, a certificate holder may attempt to initiate contact with a flight crewmember to assign a trip scheduled to begin after the required rest period without violating 14 CFR Section 135.263(b). If the air carrier successfully contacts the pilot in such a situation, that contact, which the crewmember did not have to make her or him available for, would not interrupt the continuous rest provision of 14 CFR Section 135.263(b).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We hope this satisfactorily answers your question. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sincerely,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Donald P. Byrne[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Assistant Chief Counsel[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Regulations Division[/FONT]

 

[T Heavy]

http://www.nemspa.org/DutyTime.htm

http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/symp_air_cargo/papers/3.3_ALPA.pdf

http://ciir.cs.umass.edu/cgi-bin/ua...=ua&db=agendaOctober2001&query=and&doc_id=102

http://www.aviationtoday.com/regions/usa/5186.html

http://www.flightsafety.org/fsd/fsd_sept95.pdf

These are just some interesting sites covering a number of issues. They address different carriers but still duty and safety of flight issues.

 

[gunfyter]

http://www.aviationtoday.com/regions/usa/5186.html

This article is about the 135 Aviation Rulemaking Committee. 135 ARC.

It shows that the 135 operators know Rolling Rest is against the rules... AND they know Passenger Delays or ATC delays or any delay that occurs prior to the Hold Short line does not excuse going over 14 hrs.

It shows that they know it because they are trying to change the rules to their advantage.


Thanks for posting those links, T