Rolling Rest Flexjet Pilot Alert

[PilotGuy]

Fix it.

Fix it.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

That was informative. We appreciate your leadership.

 

[Wankel7]

Thread making. You excel.

 

[StarChk20]

Wow, I just wasted 15 seconds of my life reading this thread, and another 15 typing this stupid response.

 

[NewFlex]

Here ya go boy

That was informative. We appreciate your leadership.

All Flexjet Pilots as of now join together and help yourselves.


Stop answering phones (blackberry or hotel) in rest, when you check in tell the front desk that you do not want to be disturbed by anyone (no calls, no managers knocking on the doors at the request of scheduling)


Cheap 2 Bit Renegade Charter Outfit Flexjet needs to get the message.


Get in line with the regs and other operators and compete fairly. By having truly rested crews.


No more wink wink "we don't interrupt rest"


It is up to you.

Sorry Ed, but the money isn't enough for all of us.

See Ya,

NewFlex

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Look A$$hole, there are few who have voiced more of an opinion about this stuff than I have. I wrote DG personally the day after the meeting and told him what I thought of the early callouts.

I put up such a stink last year about the PBS that the crew scheduler to this day will not talk to me. So unless you know what you're talking about, and are sure what my views are, don't sit there under the anonymity of an unidentifiable screen name and criticize. I would say STFU!, but I'm a little more cordial than that.

I understand the issue with the senior guys and the money not doing it for them. That doesn't mean I'm not trying to improve the other stuff too. I'm very active at it.

 

[Fozzy]

I bet a Union could help you with your little rest problem. To bad you don't have one.
I am told it is a waste of my money (Union dues). I beg to differ. I dare someone to break my rest for anything shy of a family emergency.
Keep fighting, it is worth it.

 

[T Heavy]

All Flexjet Pilots as of now join together and help yourselves.


Stop answering phones (blackberry or hotel) in rest, when you check in tell the front desk that you do not want to be disturbed by anyone (no calls, no managers knocking on the doors at the request of scheduling)


Cheap 2 Bit Renegade Charter Outfit Flexjet needs to get the message.


Get in line with the regs and other operators and compete fairly. By having truly rested crews.


No more wink wink "we don't interrupt rest"


It is up to you.

Sorry Ed, but the money isn't enough for all of us.

See Ya,

NewFlex

Well then show Flex how serious you are and QUIT. Otherwise talk to someone who can do something about it. I'll give a hint this may come as a shock and you may need to nap awhile, BUT THEY ARE NOT ON THIS FORUM.
The other thing I have never been call or messaged during rest unless I contacted them first. But if this is happening to you then you need to talk with your ACP.
Also should you find yourself in a position that may compromise safety or regulations, do yourself a favor and stand up for yourself like a professional. WTF, you know what just quit.

 

[Av8tor]

It is not that they are calling you in rest T-Heavy. They just call you after 10 hours and change your whole duty day. It happens all the time. No way to live man. Worst case scenerio, getting done at 3:00 p.m. in rest at 5:00p.m. they tell you, you have a trip at 10:00 a.m.. So being human, you sleep at 10:00p.m., phone rings at 1:30 with a 3:00a.m show.

 

[notapilot]

Well then show Flex how serious you are and QUIT. Otherwise talk to someone who can do something about it. I'll give a hint this may come as a shock and you may need to nap awhile, BUT THEY ARE NOT ON THIS FORUM.
The other thing I have never been call or messaged during rest unless I contacted them first. But if this is happening to you then you need to talk with your ACP.
Also should you find yourself in a position that may compromise safety or regulations, do yourself a favor and stand up for yourself like a professional. WTF, you know what just quit.

How can you argue a point that you obviousely don't even understand! Also why are you contacting them? Those that contact scheduling before going to sleep are hurting everyone else trying to stop the rolling rest problem.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

It is not that they are calling you in rest T-Heavy. They just call you after 10 hours and change your whole duty day. It happens all the time. No way to live man. Worst case scenerio, getting done at 3:00 p.m. in rest at 5:00p.m. they tell you, you have a trip at 10:00 a.m.. So being human, you sleep at 10:00p.m., phone rings at 1:30 with a 3:00a.m show.

this is what is going on. they company calls after the first 10 hours, so they say that they can do that because they now have the "lookback rest" of 10. I believe an ACP said something like "all that matters is having the lookback of 10"

but this does happen all the time, and we put up with it because nobody wants to be the guy that says no and gets fired. so what are we going to do? just saing "turn off your phone" is not going to work. if I do that first, I'm going to get canned. that doesn't help me very much. the company expects me to be contactable after my first 10 hours.

 

[Hobbes]

That is where unity and solidarity comes in place. Get a decent group of people you can trust together and all agree to not answer the phones. They can't fire you because of the not answering of the phone...the thing they hope you fear is that they will trump up something else to fire you about. If enough of you stand together and don't answer the call - NO MATTER WHAT - then change will start to occur. That is the only way I am afraid, but I can tell you that it worked over at Flops. Those guys stood together and no one answers their phone any more, unless they are some kind of mgmt Neal...

Another thing that happens in the transition is that some answer their phones, going on duty, and others do not, effectively splitting the duty day and now the whole crew is available for a much shorter duty day.

 

[notapilot]

this is what is going on. they company calls after the first 10 hours, so they say that they can do that because they now have the "lookback rest" of 10. I believe an ACP said something like "all that matters is having the lookback of 10"

but this does happen all the time, and we put up with it because nobody wants to be the guy that says no and gets fired. so what are we going to do? just saing "turn off your phone" is not going to work. if I do that first, I'm going to get canned. that doesn't help me very much. the company expects me to be contactable after my first 10 hours.

I think it is the arguement that even though you have 10 hours at the hotel in the lookback, some or all of those 10 hours may or may not count because at some point you were responsible to man the phone and this can not be counted as rest. There are many different examples of how this applies. It appears they should have a duty start time scheduled because currently any time after your initial 10 hours of rest can not be considered rest even if you are not at the airport on duty. Being in a state of readiness does not count as rest.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Also why are you contacting them? Those that contact scheduling before going to sleep are hurting everyone else trying to stop the rolling rest problem.

I almost hate to ask this, but can you please explain how you come to that conclusion?

A lot can happen between beginning rest at say 1700 and several hours later when you go to bed. What is the harm in sending a message to find out if the next days' plans are still in play?

It sure would be nice if the FAA would just get off their collective asses, do what they're paid to do and put a stop to the whole rolling rest concept industry-wide (it's not unique to Flex) but I won't hold my breath.

 

[hammer2]

Is this the same "notorious" New Flex? Haven't heard from you in a long time.

 

[T Heavy]

How can you argue a point that you obviousely don't even understand! Also why are you contacting them? Those that contact scheduling before going to sleep are hurting everyone else trying to stop the rolling rest problem.

Now that is funny. Are you kidding me, how could I not understand this???? I am contacting them to see if they have some information that will benifit me. Not to get a koolaid fix. Come on you have got to be smarter than that.

If being called in the middle of the night bothers you so bad go work in the 121 world and you then know how, what and where well in advanced.

 

[CA1900]

If being called in the middle of the night bothers you so bad go work in the 121 world and you then know how, what and where well in advanced.

How, what, and where are not safety issues. When I report, and planning my sleep around it, is a safety issue, no matter what regulation you're following.

 

[Av8tor]

Why should he have to work for a 121 carrier. Flex is the only Frac that has floating rest. Put it this way, if they can call me I should be on duty. That is how it is. That was my biggest gripe with Flex, they really take advatage of thier crews. VOTE IN A UNION>

 

[EatSleepFly]

Put it this way, if they can call me I should be on duty. That is how it is.

Actually that isn't how it is, and the FAA has said so themselves.

I'm not saying it isn't BS because it is, but if you're going to point fingers you should begin at the source.

I'd still like an explanation on how contacting scheduling before bed to inquire if there are any changes for the next day is undermining the effort to fix the rolling rest problem. If someone can civilly and coherently explain that to me, I'll stop doing it.

 

[gunfyter]

Actually that isn't how it is, and the FAA has said so themselves.

What did they say?

 

[Fozzy]

What did they say?

Ya, please post a reference. Thanks.

 

[EatSleepFly]

What did they say?

Basically that if you're dumb enough to answer the phone during your rest period, then you deserve what you get:

[FONT=&quot]December 9, 1999[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Mr. James R. Knight II[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aviation Technical Specialist[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aviation Services Department[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association 421 Aviation Way[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Frederick, MD 21701-4798[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Mr. Knight:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your letter dated September 8, 1999, to the Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Administration (FAA), concerning rest requirements under 14 CFR section 135.263(b). Specifically, you ask, "During the crew rest period, may the certificate holder initiate contact with the crew to assign a trip, which is scheduled to begin “after” the crews rest period?" The answer to your question is discussed below.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]14 CFR section 135.263(b) states that no certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The FAA has consistently interpreted its "rest"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]requirements to be satisfied only if the rest time is determined prospectively, is continuous, is free from all duty and restraint, and is free from the responsibility for work should the occasion arise. A period of time during which a pilot has a present responsibility for work should the occasion arise, does not qualify as a rest period. The question you ask, however, concerns the situation where the pilot does not have a present responsibility to do anything for the air carrier, not even to answer the telephone or a pager. This pilot, when contacted, is merely being notified of a flight assignment to take place at the conclusion of his or her rest period. The pilot, during the rest period, was not obligated to be available to answer the telephone or a pager. Accordingly, a certificate holder may attempt to initiate contact with a flight crewmember to assign a trip scheduled to begin after the required rest period without violating 14 CFR Section 135.263(b). If the air carrier successfully contacts the pilot in such a situation, that contact, which the crewmember did not have to make her or him available for, would not interrupt the continuous rest provision of 14 CFR Section 135.263(b).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We hope this satisfactorily answers your question. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sincerely,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Donald P. Byrne[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Assistant Chief Counsel[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Regulations Division[/FONT]

Not exactly anything new...

 

[gunfyter]

Basically that if you're dumb enough to answer the phone during your rest period, then you deserve what you get:



Not exactly anything new...

Thanks.... Thats correct.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

okay I think we can agree that IF you answer you are screwed. but the question is, do we HAVE to answer?

 

[Hobbes]

Basically that if you're dumb enough to answer the phone during your rest period, then you deserve what you get:



Not exactly anything new...

His point was that if you are REQUIRED to answer the phone, you should be on duty. The Frac companies have all tried to make the pilot believe they HAD to answer phones when not on duty. Most of the frax pilots have shone the beam of truth through that deceipt. IBT1108 was crucial to that happening at Flops. Now for Flops the time actually on duty may suck, but they can't touch you on rest.

 

[notapilot]

This is my opinion only. When you call in the middle of your rest at say 10pm you are sending the message to the company that our 10 hours means nothing. In fact there are many crewmembers openly trying to convince the company that scheduling should send Blackberry messages for changes even if the crew is in rest. These crewmembers argue electronic notification is not an interuption of rest. We all need to be on the same page if this is ever going to change. Calling in the middle of rest and asking for electronic notifications during rest are not solutions, they send the wrong message to the company. We have many people trying to fight for these these important changes. One change needed is for no contact during our 10 hours. How can we convince them this is important if we have crewmembers calling in the middle of rest on there own.

 

[notapilot]

Now that is funny. Are you kidding me, how could I not understand this???? I am contacting them to see if they have some information that will benifit me. Not to get a koolaid fix. Come on you have got to be smarter than that.

If being called in the middle of the night bothers you so bad go work in the 121 world and you then know how, what and where well in advanced.

I was referring to you not understanding what rolling rest is. It is not about contact during your 10 hours of rest. You not understanding what it is and then telling people to quit if they don't like it says alot.

 

[SDCFI]

This is my opinion only. When you call in the middle of your rest at say 10pm you are sending the message to the company that our 10 hours means nothing. In fact there are many crewmembers openly trying to convince the company that scheduling should send Blackberry messages for changes even if the crew is in rest. These crewmembers argue electronic notification is not an interuption of rest. We all need to be on the same page if this is ever going to change. Calling in the middle of rest and asking for electronic notifications during rest are not solutions, they send the wrong message to the company. We have many people trying to fight for these these important changes. One change needed is for no contact during our 10 hours. How can we convince them this is important if we have crewmembers calling in the middle of rest on there own.

The problem isn't being contacted during the 10 hours, the problem is being expected to be available for a 3am show after being given a brief for a late(r) show. People are texting in at night to see if there's been any changes since they went into rest, that way at least they know they'll be getting up early and not stay up too late. The other problem is people (Captains) feeling obligated to accept an early callout and other crew members (FO's and FA's) not saying no when called by the Captain with the bad news. The company has us by the ballz because we know if they decide to take disciplinary action against us for not picking up the phone (they say they won't but who really knows), we have no recourse without a contract/union. DG said at the Waterview meeting duty/rest was the next biggest issue to tackle after pay, and they're putting together a committee to look into it. Stall tactic if you ask me. They could fix it tomorrow if they really wanted to. In fact they could have fixed it a long time ago but they don't want to give up the financial benefits. I don't think it's a coincidence that we have the lowest charter rate in the industry and arguably the most efficient staffing on a crew/plane ratio. We work more days and have more flexible scheduling (rolling rest) than the other guys, doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. This could be solved, at least for now, very simply. When you shutdown you get a brief for the next day. If it's a late show dispatch decides whether or not they need you to be available for an early callout. If they do they let you know then, and your rest officially ends at the designated callout time. Of course this means they can't use you late in the day, but if they plan ahead they'll make sure they have enough crews with late starts who can cover. If they don't need you to be available you're in rest and not contactable until your scheduled show...period. We also need a set availability period for home reserve and hotel with no assignment so we can plan our sleep accordingly. This crap about making crews responsible for their rest for Day 1 is blatantly illegal. In the TAG revocation letter it specifically mentioned crews were being tasked with telling the company when they got their rest, and that was against regulations. The company must officially put a crew member into rest otherwise it's not prospective in nature.

 

[Av8tor]

Even in the FOM it states you only have 2hrs to drink if you are on DUTY less than 14 and 4hrs to drink if you are on duty more than 14. Even if technically you are supposed to have say a 19 hour lay over. They expect you to be available after your rest. They will drag this till the end. No doubt, that is the Flex way. Flex backwards for them. No flexjet pilot deserves only a 10hr or 12hr layover. It happens all the time. Why and how do all the other Fracs do it? Because the pilots put a stop to it.

 

[FLYLOW22]

okay I think we can agree that IF you answer you are screwed. but the question is, do we HAVE to answer?

Taxes and death: The only things in life that are mandatory.