Robert Crandall's response to an AA pilot.

[PBRstreetgang]

didn't the UAAL pilots sell their stock to take a profit and gave up control?

180 degrees off, do your own research gramps.

 

[waveflyer]

Bring up the bird has good points on the Internet-

Myself and others have also been on here preaching the necessity of flattening out the earning curve in our profession. End-loaded compensation is not only dumb bc of the time value of money- but also bc of the competitive pressure that having a topped out senior work force puts a company in if they make it that far once created or between bankruptcies-
Crandall points out that the Bscales were all about dealing with junior upstarts
And he's recommending a restart again bc of this same factor.
A flattened pay scale industry wide would prevent the seniority induced disadvantage

 

[PBRstreetgang]

If you want an explanation to this question watch the first video, of start at about :18 minute, about 3 minutes you will have the answer and keys to the treasure chest....

Right from Crandalls mouth:

http://vimeo.com/6705165

This should be required viewing for every line pilot in the world.

 

[Lear70]

Like I said, I simply want management to share in the success and, conversely, the failure of the airline in the same way they expect US to.

I don't know ANY capitalistic system that's successful, LONG-TERM, whereby mismanagement is rewarded by INCREASING salaries and bonuses. That kind of system usually implodes upon itself, but our bankruptcy system continues to support it. That's not true capitalism in its strictest sense, it's a perversion of it that can't last long-term.

Then again, these managers aren't thinking long-term. They're thinking make money off the stock, take their gains, and go to some other private sector that pays even more. Crandall is one of the few examples of a long-term executive in the same company, and I'd be curious what he'd have to say, off the record, about the lack of profitability of American over the last 15 years when they've had, arguably, some of the lowest labor costs due to their 2003 restructuring.

 

[Lear70]

Yip, did you see how far that contract proposal was from any other competitor-
When is mgmt responsible for their actions in your world?

According to YIP?

Never. At least, I've never heard him admit to anything even resembling acknowledgment that, at a Legacy carrier, management deserves the brunt of the blame of their lack of success.

Many other Legacy carriers have managed to be successful with even higher labor costs (not just pilots, but labor across the board) than American, at least SOME years out of the last 15. AA has consistently LOST money, almost EVERY year, and sometimes 3-4 TIMES as much money as their competitors, but with LOWER labor costs.

Again, you can't blame labor for their problems when labor costs are ALREADY below their peers in most cases... But YIP won't acknowledge that.

 

[Ops check good]

AMR paid my $10 activation fee to come on here an stir the pot. HAHAHA.

 

[B727FA]

There's a sh!t-ton of "managers" in the industry these days...but precious few LEADERS.

Management is doing things right, leadership is doing the right things. P.F. Druker

 

[ualdriver]

didn't the uaal pilots sell their stock to take a profit and gave up control?

absolutely not.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip, did you see how far that contract proposal was from any other competitor-
When is mgmt responsible for their actions in your world?

Hi wavy long time no trade barbs. So your point is? Management makes an offer, pilots accept or reject. Then management makes a decision to continue operation or fold. Sounds pretty simple. I go back to something posted before, if pilots have all the answers to run the perfect airline, how come no one has set forth to make that move? Could it be that plan could not attract any captial to become a start up?

BTW: Management is always responsible fro their actions, the same as unions.

180 degrees off, do your own research gramps.

then how did they loose control? don't have to do any research, you sound like a good source of knowledge

According to YIP? Never. At least, I've never heard him admit to anything even resembling acknowledgment that, at a Legacy carrier, management deserves the brunt of the blame of their lack of success.

So mangment is at fault at DAL/NWA, USAirways, CAL/UAL for saving 10,000's of pilot jobs by taking their companies into BK to save them? Was that not a success story?

BTW: I agree that there is much to be desired in management leadership, but they are doing their job as directed by the Board of Directors. Now if pilots really wanted to fix this buy the controlling stock and take over the company like Lorenzo did back in the 70's and 80's

 

[Mamma]

Yip, I don't think pilots advocate running an airline. Since they are invested for a career in their airline, they demand accountability and to be treated fairly. Too many times they have seen management abuse the employees, line their pockets then bail....Tilton comes to mind. Your airline is a stepping stone or final stop to those at the end of their careers so it can't really be compared.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip, I don't think pilots advocate running an airline. Since they are invested for a career in their airline, they demand accountability and to be treated fairly. Too many times they have seen management abuse the employees, line their pockets then bail....Tilton comes to mind. Your airline is a stepping stone or final stop to those at the end of their careers so it can't really be compared.

Fair enough, but I see a lot of unhappy pilots who seem to be stuck with bad managment. What can be done to get good managment? What can be done to make pilots happy? Should they change jobs, take a big pay cut and loss of seniority? Go on strike to force someone to hire good managers? Have the gov't pass a law that airlines can only operate with good management as determined by its pilots? Better yet force the public to pay twice as much as they do now to buy airline tickets.

 

[Mamma]

Fair enough, but I see a lot of unhappy pilots who seem to be stuck with bad managment. What can be done to get good managment? What can be done to make pilots happy? Should they change jobs, take a big pay cut and loss of seniority? Go on strike to force someone to hire good managers? Have the gov't pass a law that airlines can only operate with good management as determined by its pilots? Better yet force the public to pay twice as much as they do now to buy airline tickets.

No Yip. I'm suprised by your amateur suggestions. I think the solution is for pilots to remain engaged in their careers and stand firm when required. I think many airline managements have learned from SWA that happy employees=a better bottom line=happy shareholders=happy management. It's been too easy for upper management to pillage a company for their own interests. Do you advocate just sitting back and let management drive your career into the ground when there are legal actions you can take to ameliorate the abuse? As for ticket prices, I don't understand why you advocate doubling airline prices. If the average ticket price is $500 and you double it, very few will fly. If you raise it $5 then very few will care. What are you trying to accomplish with doubling airline prices? I can't be to give pilots raises because that would be ignorant.

 

[Lear70]

No Yip. I'm suprised by your amateur suggestions.

He's being facetious. Those weren't real suggestions, they're his way to dance around the issue sarcastically without actually giving a real response that would point out that management IS responsible for the financial success, or failure, of a company, much more than labor could ever think of being.

I think the solution is for pilots to remain engaged in their careers and stand firm when required.

Yes, but even when they do, as evidenced by American's problems this last decade and a half, it won't take the place of good management and sound business practices.

I think many airline managements have learned from SWA that happy employees=a better bottom line=happy shareholders=happy management.

No they haven't. Southwest is the only airline that really cares about that and, in recent months, obviously not quite as much as in years past. Every other airline still squeezes labor to the last degree in the name of cost management.

It's been too easy for upper management to pillage a company for their own interests.

They still do.

Do you advocate just sitting back and let management drive your career into the ground when there are legal actions you can take to ameliorate the abuse?

He's management, of course he does. He expects pilots to do nothing but come to work and fly the planes, regardless of how bad they see the working conditions. He also advocates pilots to "vote with their feet" by moving jobs, even though he knows that it's only feasible in HIS industry niche, and not feasible in a CAREER Legacy pilot position, due to our seniority not being portable.

He knows all that and dances around it, but that's what management does, so there's no sense in even arguing it with him.

As for ticket prices, I don't understand why you advocate doubling airline prices. If the average ticket price is $500 and you double it, very few will fly. If you raise it $5 then very few will care. What are you trying to accomplish with doubling airline prices? I can't be to give pilots raises because that would be ignorant.

You're making his argument for him. He's being exaggerative by saying "double" then will turn it around on you and say that it applies to ANY increase, although many airlines ARE raising fares. Southwest has raised fares at AirTran 9 times over the last 6 months and bookings were up until only recently (they're down for the Holidays so far, which is why you saw some fare sales announced the last couple weeks).

You and I both know that small fare increases need to happen to return airlines to a profitable stance for the long-haul, and at regular intervals in small amounts so that the traveling public doesn't notice as much. The airlines HAVE been doing that, to an extent, and the increases are sticking, yielding better profits for many airlines.

But shhhhh... don't tell YIP.

 

[Mamma]

Lear, I know Yip rather well on this board. I know he is a management shill and I don't give him the credit of being sarcastic. He has been around long enought to know commercial legacy pilots are not in the same niche as his auto parts flying pilots. Apples and oranges. He has also been around long enough to know flying auto parts out of Mexico is not the same as flying the public. If his operation raises rates the entire load is jeapordized. If a passenger outfit raises rates only some of the passenger load is jeapordized. Management's job is to figure out where that is. I honestly think Yip would be singing a different tune if he was 40 years old with a family flying for a legacy. Not so easy to vote with your feet.

 

[G4dude]

Bring up the bird has good points on the Internet-

Myself and others have also been on here preaching the necessity of flattening out the earning curve in our profession. End-loaded compensation is not only dumb bc of the time value of money- but also bc of the competitive pressure that having a topped out senior work force puts a company in if they make it that far once created or between bankruptcies-
Crandall points out that the Bscales were all about dealing with junior upstarts
And he's recommending a restart again bc of this same factor.
A flattened pay scale industry wide would prevent the seniority induced disadvantage

I like your idea. How about the same pay for all captains in 2012, adjusted for inflation in 2013, etc. Same for FOs, the same pay for a given year regardless of seniority.