Robert Crandall's response to an AA pilot.

[pilotyip]

Yip, I don't think pilots advocate running an airline. Since they are invested for a career in their airline, they demand accountability and to be treated fairly. Too many times they have seen management abuse the employees, line their pockets then bail....Tilton comes to mind. Your airline is a stepping stone or final stop to those at the end of their careers so it can't really be compared.

Fair enough, but I see a lot of unhappy pilots who seem to be stuck with bad managment. What can be done to get good managment? What can be done to make pilots happy? Should they change jobs, take a big pay cut and loss of seniority? Go on strike to force someone to hire good managers? Have the gov't pass a law that airlines can only operate with good management as determined by its pilots? Better yet force the public to pay twice as much as they do now to buy airline tickets.

 

[Mamma]

Fair enough, but I see a lot of unhappy pilots who seem to be stuck with bad managment. What can be done to get good managment? What can be done to make pilots happy? Should they change jobs, take a big pay cut and loss of seniority? Go on strike to force someone to hire good managers? Have the gov't pass a law that airlines can only operate with good management as determined by its pilots? Better yet force the public to pay twice as much as they do now to buy airline tickets.

No Yip. I'm suprised by your amateur suggestions. I think the solution is for pilots to remain engaged in their careers and stand firm when required. I think many airline managements have learned from SWA that happy employees=a better bottom line=happy shareholders=happy management. It's been too easy for upper management to pillage a company for their own interests. Do you advocate just sitting back and let management drive your career into the ground when there are legal actions you can take to ameliorate the abuse? As for ticket prices, I don't understand why you advocate doubling airline prices. If the average ticket price is $500 and you double it, very few will fly. If you raise it $5 then very few will care. What are you trying to accomplish with doubling airline prices? I can't be to give pilots raises because that would be ignorant.

 

[Lear70]

No Yip. I'm suprised by your amateur suggestions.

He's being facetious. Those weren't real suggestions, they're his way to dance around the issue sarcastically without actually giving a real response that would point out that management IS responsible for the financial success, or failure, of a company, much more than labor could ever think of being.

I think the solution is for pilots to remain engaged in their careers and stand firm when required.

Yes, but even when they do, as evidenced by American's problems this last decade and a half, it won't take the place of good management and sound business practices.

I think many airline managements have learned from SWA that happy employees=a better bottom line=happy shareholders=happy management.

No they haven't. Southwest is the only airline that really cares about that and, in recent months, obviously not quite as much as in years past. Every other airline still squeezes labor to the last degree in the name of cost management.

It's been too easy for upper management to pillage a company for their own interests.

They still do.

Do you advocate just sitting back and let management drive your career into the ground when there are legal actions you can take to ameliorate the abuse?

He's management, of course he does. He expects pilots to do nothing but come to work and fly the planes, regardless of how bad they see the working conditions. He also advocates pilots to "vote with their feet" by moving jobs, even though he knows that it's only feasible in HIS industry niche, and not feasible in a CAREER Legacy pilot position, due to our seniority not being portable.

He knows all that and dances around it, but that's what management does, so there's no sense in even arguing it with him.

As for ticket prices, I don't understand why you advocate doubling airline prices. If the average ticket price is $500 and you double it, very few will fly. If you raise it $5 then very few will care. What are you trying to accomplish with doubling airline prices? I can't be to give pilots raises because that would be ignorant.

You're making his argument for him. He's being exaggerative by saying "double" then will turn it around on you and say that it applies to ANY increase, although many airlines ARE raising fares. Southwest has raised fares at AirTran 9 times over the last 6 months and bookings were up until only recently (they're down for the Holidays so far, which is why you saw some fare sales announced the last couple weeks).

You and I both know that small fare increases need to happen to return airlines to a profitable stance for the long-haul, and at regular intervals in small amounts so that the traveling public doesn't notice as much. The airlines HAVE been doing that, to an extent, and the increases are sticking, yielding better profits for many airlines.

But shhhhh... don't tell YIP.

 

[Mamma]

Lear, I know Yip rather well on this board. I know he is a management shill and I don't give him the credit of being sarcastic. He has been around long enought to know commercial legacy pilots are not in the same niche as his auto parts flying pilots. Apples and oranges. He has also been around long enough to know flying auto parts out of Mexico is not the same as flying the public. If his operation raises rates the entire load is jeapordized. If a passenger outfit raises rates only some of the passenger load is jeapordized. Management's job is to figure out where that is. I honestly think Yip would be singing a different tune if he was 40 years old with a family flying for a legacy. Not so easy to vote with your feet.

 

[G4dude]

Bring up the bird has good points on the Internet-

Myself and others have also been on here preaching the necessity of flattening out the earning curve in our profession. End-loaded compensation is not only dumb bc of the time value of money- but also bc of the competitive pressure that having a topped out senior work force puts a company in if they make it that far once created or between bankruptcies-
Crandall points out that the Bscales were all about dealing with junior upstarts
And he's recommending a restart again bc of this same factor.
A flattened pay scale industry wide would prevent the seniority induced disadvantage

I like your idea. How about the same pay for all captains in 2012, adjusted for inflation in 2013, etc. Same for FOs, the same pay for a given year regardless of seniority.

 

[G4dude]

Really? Unions did it?

American's union contracts were forged under the threat of a bankruptcy filing by American in 2003.

The unions agreed to contracts calling for $1.62 billion a year in wage and benefit CONCESSIONS to keep the company from canceling wage, benefit and pension agreements in bankruptcy court. The contracts became amendable in May 2008.

AA 767 Pay

CA top $169
FO top $122

DL 767 Pay

CA top $197
FO top $134

AA 737 Pay

CA top $166
FO top $113

AirTran 737 Pay

CA top $171
FO top $107


But yeah, it's those over-paid pilots who created 12 years of sustained yearly losses of hundreds of millions per year...

They're paid under their industry peers, yet Management wants MORE pay and productivity cuts. I'd say the business model that management has created over the least decade plus is flawed... but what do I know.

My understanding is the other unions at AA are the main culprits, similar to the Machinists at Eastern.

 

[G4dude]

Lear, I know Yip rather well on this board. I know he is a management shill and I don't give him the credit of being sarcastic. He has been around long enought to know commercial legacy pilots are not in the same niche as his auto parts flying pilots. Apples and oranges. He has also been around long enough to know flying auto parts out of Mexico is not the same as flying the public. If his operation raises rates the entire load is jeapordized. If a passenger outfit raises rates only some of the passenger load is jeapordized. Management's job is to figure out where that is. I honestly think Yip would be singing a different tune if he was 40 years old with a family flying for a legacy. Not so easy to vote with your feet.

Mamma, you are embarrassing yourself, with all due respect.

 

[Mamma]

Mamma, you are embarrassing yourself, with all due respect.

Really? Please expand.

 

[pilotyip]

No Yip. I'm suprised by your amateur suggestions. I think the solution is for pilots to remain engaged in their careers and stand firm when required. I think many airline managements have learned from SWA that happy employees=a better bottom line=happy shareholders=happy management. It's been too easy for upper management to pillage a company for their own interests. Do you advocate just sitting back and let management drive your career into the ground when there are legal actions you can take to ameliorate the abuse? As for ticket prices, I don't understand why you advocate doubling airline prices. If the average ticket price is $500 and you double it, very few will fly. If you raise it $5 then very few will care. What are you trying to accomplish with doubling airline prices? I can't be to give pilots raises because that would be ignorant.

Taking this way too serious, being sarcastic I was. So upper management pillages a company, that is life, what can be done about it? Make posts about how all pilots are being screwed and it is time to take action to prevent this. What would that action be?

My career has been driven into the ground by managment, gov't defense cutbacks, broken contracts, and unions so many times, I don't think I can count that high. 11 jobs in the 20 years after I left the Navy. That is life, you move on and don't burn any energy about thing you have no control over.

So I go someplace where I offer something unique to a company, like getting the FAA off their back by building an airline training program. Passing all inspections. Because of this move I am branded as a "management shill" as if I have any influence over any decisions management makes.

 

[Mamma]

Yip, please. You are not branded a management shill because of where you work but for what you say. Maybe you can support the line pilots instead of management from time to time.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip, please. You are not branded a management shill because of where you work but for what you say. Maybe you can support the line pilots instead of management from time to time.

So we are only supposed to see one side here, that only pro pilot views are allowed to be posted. Only pro union stances? Only all management sucks posts? Is that what I am hearing? I am only posting that management has a role in seeing the company stays in business and that the pilots keep their jobs. They have to make unpopular choices.

 

[waveflyer]

So we are only supposed to see one side here, that only pro pilot views are allowed to be posted. Only pro union stances? Only all management sucks posts? Is that what I am hearing? I am only posting that management has a role in seeing the company stays in business and that the pilots keep their jobs. They have to make unpopular choices.

Yip can you post where you've ever sided w/ line pilots on FI?

Pilots celebrate the mgmt's that accomplish this "keeping of jobs" ethically- the Herbs and bethunes of the world-

Does AA's actions or leadership resemble theirs? Does AA's bottom line weakening bonuses even meet your own criteria? How has This AA mgmt group done anything in the last decade and a half to "keep jobs" for anyone?

Please answer specifically if you can.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip can you post where you've ever sided w/ line pilots on FI?

Pilots celebrate the mgmt's that accomplish this "keeping of jobs" ethically- the Herbs and bethunes of the world-

Does AA's actions or leadership resemble theirs? Does AA's bottom line weakening bonuses even meet your own criteria? How has This AA mgmt group done anything in the last decade and a half to "keep jobs" for anyone?

Please answer specifically if you can.

Isn't this one kinda in support of the line pilot?

You have just reinforced what I have said all along. Age is not the sole determinate of a pilot’s capability. We all know that there are pilots under 60 that are in far worse physical condition those pilots over 60.

Setting the age a 65 has not effected airline safety one bid. In fact as per post above the NTSB says the retention of experience in the cockpit plays a major part in the high level of safety.

Back to my post if this is all about the highest possible level of safety, we take the age of pilot that experiences an in-flight incapacitation, say a heart attack at age 47, and that becomes the new retirement age.


Otherwise this is all about get out of my seat, but can not say that, it is too greedy, So we protest age 65 in the name of safety, because who can be against safety? It is like motherhood and patriotism.

How about management basing?

Airline management that does not count multi-crewed, IFR, multi-engine helo time in total flight time are so stupid that they consider VFR C-150 the breakfast of champions in picking who is best qualified.

BTW I think SWA fits into that category

 

[Lear70]

Isn't this one kinda in support of the line pilot?

You have just reinforced what I have said all along. Age is not the sole determinate of a pilot’s capability. We all know that there are pilots under 60 that are in far worse physical condition those pilots over 60.

Setting the age a 65 has not effected airline safety one bid. In fact as per post above the NTSB says the retention of experience in the cockpit plays a major part in the high level of safety.

Back to my post if this is all about the highest possible level of safety, we take the age of pilot that experiences an in-flight incapacitation, say a heart attack at age 47, and that becomes the new retirement age.


Otherwise this is all about get out of my seat, but can not say that, it is too greedy, So we protest age 65 in the name of safety, because who can be against safety? It is like motherhood and patriotism.

No, that's not really pre-pilot, you were arguing the issues of the age limit on Part 121 passenger flying and is way off-topic of this issue anyway. You weren't saying anything about pilots being due a fair wage as compared to their peers and the profitability of their company, which is something most of us would consider pro-pilot but which is something you've never posted.

How about management basing?

Airline management that does not count multi-crewed, IFR, multi-engine helo time in total flight time are so stupid that they consider VFR C-150 the breakfast of champions in picking who is best qualified.

BTW I think SWA fits into that category

No, that's a HR hiring decision issue. Not senior airline management who runs the company, makes hard decisions in difficult times on routes and schedules to keep or chop, yet after making BAD decisions STILL rewards themselves with huge bonuses, only FURTHER deteriorating the company's financial position, all because THEY think THEY deserve it.

So explain to me how a pilot with a bankrupt carrier thinking they deserve a large salary increase equivalent to their peers is any different than a failing CEO thinking they deserve a certain compensation package even though they've run an airline nearly 15 years into the red so far they have to file bankruptcy?

I just don't believe AA pilots should take a FURTHER pay cut while management gets millions in bonuses and payouts after terrible performance. Additionally, Management should have their bonuses based SOLELY on the YEARLY performance of the airline and pilots, likewise, should get a cut of that too above their salary base (just like SWA does with employee profit sharing). Perform good? Make more money. Perform bad, you just get your base salary. Whether you're a pilot or management.

What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[Chairman]

didn't the UAAL pilots sell their stock to take a profit and gave up control?

You could not sell the shares that you had. The deal really never gave Employees control for very long and eventually there control was deluded. The price they got the shares at was way above the market price and you could not sell until you retired. All the shares were voided in BK.

 

[J.Otto]

So upper management pillages a company, that is life, what can be done about it? Make posts about how all pilots are being screwed and it is time to take action to prevent this.

My career has been driven into the ground by managment, gov't defense cutbacks, broken contracts, and unions so many times, I don't think I can count that high. 11 jobs in the 20 years after I left the Navy. That is life, you move on and don't burn any energy about thing you have no control over.

Highly complacent attitude and not sage advice if you were in a concentration camp, enslaved/segregated, unable to vote due to gender/race, getting taxed by some other country, etc.

 

[pilotyip]

Highly complacent attitude and not sage advice if you were in a concentration camp, enslaved/segregated, unable to vote due to gender/race, getting taxed by some other country, etc.

After 11 jobs since leaving the Navy, I have adopted another slogan, "Expect nothing and you will never be disappointed” I know it sounds like having no drive, ambition or goals, but that is not the case. There is so much in this business you have absolutely no control over, these effect your job. To fret unnecessarily over those things causes ulcers, it is not worth it. Getting depressed over stupid things that you have no control over is not worth it. By expecting nothing, it will always be better than nothing. Life is a ball.

 

[Lear70]

No one said anything about getting depressed over it.

People are, however, advocating holding a hard-line union stance until management agrees to share in the failure, as well as success, of the airline. You should have no problem with that... if management is successful, everyone wins. If management can't manage, they lose as well as the employees.

Fair is fair after all...

 

[G4dude]

No one said anything about getting depressed over it.

People are, however, advocating holding a hard-line union stance until management agrees to share in the failure, as well as success, of the airline. You should have no problem with that... if management is successful, everyone wins. If management can't manage, they lose as well as the employees.

Fair is fair after all...

My concern in all this AA stuff is that by being aggressive, the union pilots might lose their jobs. of course the union bosses won't lose theirs...but I am accused of being anti line pilot for suggesting they might want to keep what they have and live to fight another day when the economy is stronger. Yip gets ripped the same way, as if his opinions are proof he doesn't care just because his conclusions are different than yours.

 

[waveflyer]

And I'd say men afraid to "lose" are the real reason behind the slide of this career- where men unafraid standing up to unbelievable theft built this career.

Did you look up the "management retention bonuses" yet dude?

At what point would you stand up for yourself? Probably never hence the job merry go round you've been on