RideandDrive
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RJDC Update - March 8 (part 1)
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Part 1 of 2
You and many like you, including some of us that haven't been here long enough to know what you've done, would like us to consider that "history" and forget it. Just as you tell me that the Delta pilots will not forget what the Comair MEC has done, I must tell you that a majority of Comair pilots, IMO, do not forget what the Delta MEC has done. It is not "history", in that you continue to pursue it and you are currently planning to do even more.
You prefer to leave the union, rather that sit down with the likes of us and agree as to where the dividing lines should be drawn in the mutual interests of our Company and each other. Since we cannot impose anything against your will, what is it that you fear? For a while there I had thought better of you. I'm disappointed.
We have not been able to resolve our differences because your group really doesn't want a solution. What you want is our total capitulation and acquiescence to your will and your unilateral control of our future. We cannot give that and, in my opinion, should never give that. Submission to total domination by your group is not an option.
I did not tell you that Delta management couldn't control Comair management. Of course it can. Yes, I know perfectly well that if Leo directed CMR management to hire furloughed Delta pilots, it would be done, not tomorrow, but yesterday. Thank you for making the point. Now, do you surmise that your MEC also knows that? I am quite certain that it does. By the way, so does my MEC.
That is precisely why it is so obvious that your MEC's behavior on this "hiring issue" was a carefully planned and orchestrated effort to discredit the Comair MEC and divide Comair pilots against each other. It is totally transparent.
If your MEC truly wanted to secure employment at Comair for Delta's furloughed pilots, your Chairman could have approached Mr. Mullin or Mr. Reid and made the request directly to them. Why do you suppose he did not do that? I'll give you my version. He saw a political opportunity to cast doubt upon the credibility of the Comair MEC and divide Comair pilots, and he jumped on it.
He knew before the fact that if he went to the Comair MEC and made a threat , whatever he proposed would likely be rejected. His proposal itself was not the objective. His ability to ensure a "rejection" was.
He also had to find something that would incite the rank-and-file at Delta, particularly the junior group, and at the same time turn a substantial percentage of Comair pilots against their own MEC. It was not too difficult to recognize which portion of the Comair group would be the easiest to influence, i.e., the most junior pilots, all hired within the same time frame as Delta's furloughed pilots, all eager for the dream job at Delta mainline. All with less than 3 years seniority, about half of them still on probation, and most in their 1st airline job. One third of the Comair seniority list.
A classic case of killing two birds with one stone. 30% of his own pilots are worried about furloughs and down grades and 1000 are already on the street. Their frustration with the inability of the Delta MEC to solve the problem is growing, and he knows that his chances of wining an instant recall mandate in the arbitration are remote. What to do?
Answer -- get a resolution directing him to get the CMR MEC to hire furloughed Delta pilots. Next, offer the Comair pilots preferential hiring at Delta mainline in exchange. He knows he can't deliver that, but who cares? They (CMR) want it so bad that their MEC will take the bait.
When he threatens the Comair leaders, it will p!ss them off and they'll say no. As soon as that happens he'll launch a PR campaign against them telling Delta pilots that the Comair MEC has spurned and rejected them in their time of need, and telling Comair pilots that as a direct punitive consequence they'll never be hired at Delta in the future.
That will turn the heads of his own people away from what he can't do for them and focus their ire against Comair. The Delta guys are already mad about the lawsuit anyway and getting rid of it is your true objective. This will fuel their fire.
In turn the Comair kids will hate their MEC for denying them a chance at Delta, they'll split with the senior ba*tards, divide internally and lose their solidarity. As a fringe benefit, the dam*ed RJDC is likely to lose most of its support. It's perfect. So planned, so said, and so done.
To date, it has worked as intended within the Delta pilot group. Your rhetoric and that of others is evidence of that. You bought it hook, line and sinker.
However, it really hasn't worked as well as expected within the Comair group. Many of CMR's juniors are worried about not getting hired, and eager to tell you "it wasn't me, I disagree with my MEC", but the seniors who have smelled the rat and know his habits are holding the line and working with the juniors to help them understand what is really going on behind the scenes. What's more, we've "gone public" too. I've got to hand it to you. It was a well-planned and well-executed attack; I give you credit for that. Your PR is good and you have us scrambling to defend our position, even though truth is on our side. But your little scheme isn't going to work; "we have just begun to fight".
You see there may be 1/3 of us who don't really know you, who don't understand your hidden motives and who have not as yet fully assimilated or embraced the concept that they are Comair pilots. They're just happy they got hired and hopeful that they will one day become Delta pilots. You and your MEC are deliberately using their ambitions in and effort to browbeat them and use them as pawns in your MEC's political battle.
However, there are 2/3 of us who do know, who do understand your motives and vindictive nature (so clearly manifest in the rhetoric of your posts) when you don't get your way or cannot impose it by force, and we're telling our brothers. You will not succeed in dividing us.
If there is anything despicable about this sordid mess it is the strategy employed by your MEC. Not only are you "using" Comair's junior pilots, you are also "using" your own furloughees to achieve unrelated political goals. Then, cleverly, you accuse us of doing that as you seek to transfer the blame. That is what I believe you started out to do, and it is also what you continue to pursue.
The bottom line is elementary FDJ, if your MEC Chairman really wanted our assistance for the furloughed Delta pilots, and was not involved in a planned political coup d'etat against the Comair MEC, all he had to do was pick up the phone and ask our Chairman for help. Odds are 9:1 he would have gotten it.
He didn't need a publicly orchestrated MEC resolution at the BOD. He didn't need to offer preferential hiring at Delta, which he knew he couldn't deliver. He didn't need to threaten us with "going public" or anything else. He didn't need to incite Delta pilots against Comair pilots. He didn't need to attempt to divide Comair pilots and set them against each other. All that he needed to do was ask for our help. But no, he couldn't do that, because the idea of a Delta MEC Chairman asking a lowly Comair MEC Chairman for help, with anything, is just too demeaning. More importantly, we'd probably say yes, and then the master plan would fall flat on its face.
Since he knew deep down that only a handful of his own would ever accept employment at Comair anyway (that's what you told me), it was easy to sacrifice those few for the chance to divide the Comair pilot group internally. Backroom Politics is a dirty game FDJ, and your MEC plays it well. Additionally, it is ALPA's traditional modus operandi.
Continued --
I can fully appreciate that. My hope is that you come to appreciate that the feeling is mutual. I don't judge your MEC by what it says FDJ, my judgements are based directly upon what it has done. My information as to what that is, is not second hand. Sorry to say, I don't trust your leaders "good intentions" either. "I have seen the Emperor without his clothes."
You and many like you, including some of us that haven't been here long enough to know what you've done, would like us to consider that "history" and forget it. Just as you tell me that the Delta pilots will not forget what the Comair MEC has done, I must tell you that a majority of Comair pilots, IMO, do not forget what the Delta MEC has done. It is not "history", in that you continue to pursue it and you are currently planning to do even more.
And there you have it. Your colors are now flying at full staff. You have just shown me, in your own words, that your past rhetoric about the dangers to "our union" posed by the litigation is just that, rhetoric. Your concerns are not about the "union" and they never have been. Your only concern is your self-interest. I don't fault you for having that self-interest. However, when that self-interest comes at the expense of my fellow pilots' futures, it cannot be ignored nor accepted. I don't buy the concept that your motives are altruistic, just because you tell me that they are.
You prefer to leave the union, rather that sit down with the likes of us and agree as to where the dividing lines should be drawn in the mutual interests of our Company and each other. Since we cannot impose anything against your will, what is it that you fear? For a while there I had thought better of you. I'm disappointed.
We have not been able to resolve our differences because your group really doesn't want a solution. What you want is our total capitulation and acquiescence to your will and your unilateral control of our future. We cannot give that and, in my opinion, should never give that. Submission to total domination by your group is not an option.
Years … you make it sound like a really long time. Must be the difference in our ages. Your company only bought my company in early 2000. I would call that yesterday, not years. Anyway, that's beside the point. For the record, I'm glad you acknowledge that Captain Lawson's account is factual.
I did not tell you that Delta management couldn't control Comair management. Of course it can. Yes, I know perfectly well that if Leo directed CMR management to hire furloughed Delta pilots, it would be done, not tomorrow, but yesterday. Thank you for making the point. Now, do you surmise that your MEC also knows that? I am quite certain that it does. By the way, so does my MEC.
That is precisely why it is so obvious that your MEC's behavior on this "hiring issue" was a carefully planned and orchestrated effort to discredit the Comair MEC and divide Comair pilots against each other. It is totally transparent.
If your MEC truly wanted to secure employment at Comair for Delta's furloughed pilots, your Chairman could have approached Mr. Mullin or Mr. Reid and made the request directly to them. Why do you suppose he did not do that? I'll give you my version. He saw a political opportunity to cast doubt upon the credibility of the Comair MEC and divide Comair pilots, and he jumped on it.
He knew before the fact that if he went to the Comair MEC and made a threat , whatever he proposed would likely be rejected. His proposal itself was not the objective. His ability to ensure a "rejection" was.
He also had to find something that would incite the rank-and-file at Delta, particularly the junior group, and at the same time turn a substantial percentage of Comair pilots against their own MEC. It was not too difficult to recognize which portion of the Comair group would be the easiest to influence, i.e., the most junior pilots, all hired within the same time frame as Delta's furloughed pilots, all eager for the dream job at Delta mainline. All with less than 3 years seniority, about half of them still on probation, and most in their 1st airline job. One third of the Comair seniority list.
A classic case of killing two birds with one stone. 30% of his own pilots are worried about furloughs and down grades and 1000 are already on the street. Their frustration with the inability of the Delta MEC to solve the problem is growing, and he knows that his chances of wining an instant recall mandate in the arbitration are remote. What to do?
Answer -- get a resolution directing him to get the CMR MEC to hire furloughed Delta pilots. Next, offer the Comair pilots preferential hiring at Delta mainline in exchange. He knows he can't deliver that, but who cares? They (CMR) want it so bad that their MEC will take the bait.
When he threatens the Comair leaders, it will p!ss them off and they'll say no. As soon as that happens he'll launch a PR campaign against them telling Delta pilots that the Comair MEC has spurned and rejected them in their time of need, and telling Comair pilots that as a direct punitive consequence they'll never be hired at Delta in the future.
That will turn the heads of his own people away from what he can't do for them and focus their ire against Comair. The Delta guys are already mad about the lawsuit anyway and getting rid of it is your true objective. This will fuel their fire.
In turn the Comair kids will hate their MEC for denying them a chance at Delta, they'll split with the senior ba*tards, divide internally and lose their solidarity. As a fringe benefit, the dam*ed RJDC is likely to lose most of its support. It's perfect. So planned, so said, and so done.
To date, it has worked as intended within the Delta pilot group. Your rhetoric and that of others is evidence of that. You bought it hook, line and sinker.
However, it really hasn't worked as well as expected within the Comair group. Many of CMR's juniors are worried about not getting hired, and eager to tell you "it wasn't me, I disagree with my MEC", but the seniors who have smelled the rat and know his habits are holding the line and working with the juniors to help them understand what is really going on behind the scenes. What's more, we've "gone public" too. I've got to hand it to you. It was a well-planned and well-executed attack; I give you credit for that. Your PR is good and you have us scrambling to defend our position, even though truth is on our side. But your little scheme isn't going to work; "we have just begun to fight".
You see there may be 1/3 of us who don't really know you, who don't understand your hidden motives and who have not as yet fully assimilated or embraced the concept that they are Comair pilots. They're just happy they got hired and hopeful that they will one day become Delta pilots. You and your MEC are deliberately using their ambitions in and effort to browbeat them and use them as pawns in your MEC's political battle.
However, there are 2/3 of us who do know, who do understand your motives and vindictive nature (so clearly manifest in the rhetoric of your posts) when you don't get your way or cannot impose it by force, and we're telling our brothers. You will not succeed in dividing us.
If there is anything despicable about this sordid mess it is the strategy employed by your MEC. Not only are you "using" Comair's junior pilots, you are also "using" your own furloughees to achieve unrelated political goals. Then, cleverly, you accuse us of doing that as you seek to transfer the blame. That is what I believe you started out to do, and it is also what you continue to pursue.
The bottom line is elementary FDJ, if your MEC Chairman really wanted our assistance for the furloughed Delta pilots, and was not involved in a planned political coup d'etat against the Comair MEC, all he had to do was pick up the phone and ask our Chairman for help. Odds are 9:1 he would have gotten it.
He didn't need a publicly orchestrated MEC resolution at the BOD. He didn't need to offer preferential hiring at Delta, which he knew he couldn't deliver. He didn't need to threaten us with "going public" or anything else. He didn't need to incite Delta pilots against Comair pilots. He didn't need to attempt to divide Comair pilots and set them against each other. All that he needed to do was ask for our help. But no, he couldn't do that, because the idea of a Delta MEC Chairman asking a lowly Comair MEC Chairman for help, with anything, is just too demeaning. More importantly, we'd probably say yes, and then the master plan would fall flat on its face.
Since he knew deep down that only a handful of his own would ever accept employment at Comair anyway (that's what you told me), it was easy to sacrifice those few for the chance to divide the Comair pilot group internally. Backroom Politics is a dirty game FDJ, and your MEC plays it well. Additionally, it is ALPA's traditional modus operandi.
Continued --
Part 2 of 2
The truth is most of us, and that includes myself, sympathize with the plight of furloughed pilots regardless of their airline affiliation and yes, that includes Delta pilots. We would like to see you get jobs and we would like to help. You know very well that we believe that both you and we are really employed by a single corporate entity and should share the benefits. Not equally (you were there first), but share nonetheless. Therefore, it is natural that we should want to help you when you're in trouble. Your MEC has exploited that knowledge for an ulterior motive. Frankly it disgusts me.
Personally, before you all did this, I would have been willing to set aside our differences and recommend the cessation of all off the street hiring at Comair until such time as every furloughed Delta pilot, who wanted the job, had been hired. I would even have gone so far as to recommend that you be hired automatically without the need for any interview and given the right to exercise your Delta longevity, provided none of our own were displaced or prevented from upgrade, while asking nothing of you in return. Maybe the Company would not have agreed, but I myself was willing to try and willing to lobby my MEC to do the same. Now, in view of your MEC's ploy and your vindictive threats towards our innocent junior pilots, I have abandoned that concept and quietly circled the wagons with everyone that I can to defend against your attack. I will resist those threats until they cease and encourage my fellow pilots to do likewise.
I no longer wish to bury the hatchet. Why? Because I find the actions of your MEC in this matter far more despicable than you find the actions of mine. Do I hold that against the Delta line pilot? No, I do not, for most of you don't have a clue as to how your MEC really operates.
Seriously … you're doing all that you're doing for the benefit of "the profession"? You really expect me to believe that? I'll bet you believe that's what ALPA is doing too, right? Maybe that's the purpose of their J4J protocol, designed to rob regional pilots of their seniority in order to better "protect the profession"? I think you know better, but then again maybe you really don't. Whose profession are you trying to protect FDJ, is it ours collectively as airline pilots, or is it yours individually? Never mind, I already know the answer. For a moment I forgot that in the eyes of ALPA and MEC's like yours, regional pilots don't have a profession, they are merely aspirants and therefore disposable.
I guess I knew that your threats were intentional and explicit. I just tried to temper the rhetoric a bit by referring to it as "thinly veiled". Sorry, I won't make that mistake again. Since your MEC fired the first salvo many moons ago perhaps it is a quid pro quo. That is unfortunate, not praiseworthy. This in fighting is truly counterproductive.
FDJ, it is not that my MEC does not want Comair pilots to share a cockpit with Delta pilots. Those of us that understand this dispute are well aware that both Delta pilots and Comair pilots are victims of unreasonable behavior on the part of ALPA politicians and Delta MEC politicians. Most of us wish that it were not so, but it is. Our efforts to change that have been akin to crying in the wilderness, for a decade. Under the circumstances, we cannot afford to pretend that there is no problem. There is a problem and it is growing.
The Comair MEC is charged with protecting the long-term interests of every Comair pilot, not the short-term interests of those that wish to leave Comair, nor those already at Delta. Our MEC cannot abdicate that responsibility and just accept whatever ALPA and the Delta MEC may choose to do from time to time. In other words, it cannot abdicate because you would like it to do so whenever your interests make it convenient.
Either we seek and find together a mutually agreeable method of resolving our differences or those differences will continue to grow and this will get much worse than it already is. As soon as your MEC gives any kind of signal that it is willing to talk with us, and not demand or dictate what we should do, progress will begin. If it does not do so, the war will continue to expand until it becomes total. That is not good for you and it is not good for us.
I gather you believe you can win a total war and apparently you are willing to risk one. Our position is defensive, but well dug in. Perhaps you can win, but I believe we can hold our own ground and am willing to try. There is a better way, but we will not find it until BOTH of us are willing to look.
We really aren't replacing you at all FDJ. Changes in deployment of aircraft are due only to economics, which we do not control and you do not control. Actually, along with ASA and the others, our activities are contributing enough to the parent company to keep many more of you from winding up on the streets than those already there. If your MEC's policies were different than they are, it is highly probable that none of you would be furloughed today, and neither would any of us. Those that have newly come to us in the last year or two might not be here, but no Delta pilots would be unemployed. Unfortunately, many of you are not wise enough to understand that or too arrogant to admit it.
Nevertheless, I truly hope that the Company will recover sooner than later and you can all be restored to your original positions post haste. Comair pilots get no satisfaction or pleasure from your furloughs and wish to see them ended. How that happens is more dependent upon you that it is upon us. So far, you have done little to help yourselves and your leaders have done much to hurt you. Do not blame us for that.
It is true that our careers have not yet been damaged by your actions, but that is merely an accident of fate brought about by circumstance beyond your control or ours, which has prevented the implementation of your injurious policies towards us. Notwithstanding those events, we are very close to experiencing the ill effects of your effort to limit us. For as long as that effort continues, we must do the best that we can to protect our own interests, before we address yours.
Sorry to disappoint you but mine is by no means a sob story. I enjoy what I do and what I have done and only regret that I don't have more time to spend being a Comair pilot. I have been in other places and much larger equipment, and have not forgotten my former pilot group, but I like being a part of this one. With very few exceptions, Comair people are a class act! I hope that our newer pilots will learn to live up to our traditions just as I hope you will learn to become a real Delta pilot like the old school, which was also a class act. I'm not so sure that the "new breed" lives up to the former Delta standard.
As my Chairman said, the door is still open.
The truth is most of us, and that includes myself, sympathize with the plight of furloughed pilots regardless of their airline affiliation and yes, that includes Delta pilots. We would like to see you get jobs and we would like to help. You know very well that we believe that both you and we are really employed by a single corporate entity and should share the benefits. Not equally (you were there first), but share nonetheless. Therefore, it is natural that we should want to help you when you're in trouble. Your MEC has exploited that knowledge for an ulterior motive. Frankly it disgusts me.
Personally, before you all did this, I would have been willing to set aside our differences and recommend the cessation of all off the street hiring at Comair until such time as every furloughed Delta pilot, who wanted the job, had been hired. I would even have gone so far as to recommend that you be hired automatically without the need for any interview and given the right to exercise your Delta longevity, provided none of our own were displaced or prevented from upgrade, while asking nothing of you in return. Maybe the Company would not have agreed, but I myself was willing to try and willing to lobby my MEC to do the same. Now, in view of your MEC's ploy and your vindictive threats towards our innocent junior pilots, I have abandoned that concept and quietly circled the wagons with everyone that I can to defend against your attack. I will resist those threats until they cease and encourage my fellow pilots to do likewise.
I no longer wish to bury the hatchet. Why? Because I find the actions of your MEC in this matter far more despicable than you find the actions of mine. Do I hold that against the Delta line pilot? No, I do not, for most of you don't have a clue as to how your MEC really operates.
Seriously … you're doing all that you're doing for the benefit of "the profession"? You really expect me to believe that? I'll bet you believe that's what ALPA is doing too, right? Maybe that's the purpose of their J4J protocol, designed to rob regional pilots of their seniority in order to better "protect the profession"? I think you know better, but then again maybe you really don't. Whose profession are you trying to protect FDJ, is it ours collectively as airline pilots, or is it yours individually? Never mind, I already know the answer. For a moment I forgot that in the eyes of ALPA and MEC's like yours, regional pilots don't have a profession, they are merely aspirants and therefore disposable.
Yet you find it strange that we support ours? Why would you expect a difference? In view of your behavior you have only encouraged us to rise to the defense of our own. You want us to recall our leadership and are clamoring for it. Why? Because you did not get your way and failed to pull the wool over their eyes? Why don't you recall your leadership for creating this debacle? I think that would be most appropriate. Perhaps you could then elect some statesmen, to replace the dirty politicians.
Are we really? Funny I didn't know that. We are not acting against the hiring of your pilots FDJ, we are merely not doing anything to convince our management to change its policies. Why should we? You guys don't want jobs at Comair or at least that's what you told me. You just want to use the Comair group (once more) to serve your MEC's political ends. We don't care to be used by you or anyone else. We do not like your political agenda and will not subscribe to it. It does nothing other that make Comair and ASA pilots permanent vassals of the Delta MEC and subject to its whims. That is not for us now and most probably will not be in the future. When you come to understand that, maybe the healing can begin.
I guess I knew that your threats were intentional and explicit. I just tried to temper the rhetoric a bit by referring to it as "thinly veiled". Sorry, I won't make that mistake again. Since your MEC fired the first salvo many moons ago perhaps it is a quid pro quo. That is unfortunate, not praiseworthy. This in fighting is truly counterproductive.
FDJ, it is not that my MEC does not want Comair pilots to share a cockpit with Delta pilots. Those of us that understand this dispute are well aware that both Delta pilots and Comair pilots are victims of unreasonable behavior on the part of ALPA politicians and Delta MEC politicians. Most of us wish that it were not so, but it is. Our efforts to change that have been akin to crying in the wilderness, for a decade. Under the circumstances, we cannot afford to pretend that there is no problem. There is a problem and it is growing.
The Comair MEC is charged with protecting the long-term interests of every Comair pilot, not the short-term interests of those that wish to leave Comair, nor those already at Delta. Our MEC cannot abdicate that responsibility and just accept whatever ALPA and the Delta MEC may choose to do from time to time. In other words, it cannot abdicate because you would like it to do so whenever your interests make it convenient.
Either we seek and find together a mutually agreeable method of resolving our differences or those differences will continue to grow and this will get much worse than it already is. As soon as your MEC gives any kind of signal that it is willing to talk with us, and not demand or dictate what we should do, progress will begin. If it does not do so, the war will continue to expand until it becomes total. That is not good for you and it is not good for us.
I gather you believe you can win a total war and apparently you are willing to risk one. Our position is defensive, but well dug in. Perhaps you can win, but I believe we can hold our own ground and am willing to try. There is a better way, but we will not find it until BOTH of us are willing to look.
We really aren't replacing you at all FDJ. Changes in deployment of aircraft are due only to economics, which we do not control and you do not control. Actually, along with ASA and the others, our activities are contributing enough to the parent company to keep many more of you from winding up on the streets than those already there. If your MEC's policies were different than they are, it is highly probable that none of you would be furloughed today, and neither would any of us. Those that have newly come to us in the last year or two might not be here, but no Delta pilots would be unemployed. Unfortunately, many of you are not wise enough to understand that or too arrogant to admit it.
Nevertheless, I truly hope that the Company will recover sooner than later and you can all be restored to your original positions post haste. Comair pilots get no satisfaction or pleasure from your furloughs and wish to see them ended. How that happens is more dependent upon you that it is upon us. So far, you have done little to help yourselves and your leaders have done much to hurt you. Do not blame us for that.
It is true that our careers have not yet been damaged by your actions, but that is merely an accident of fate brought about by circumstance beyond your control or ours, which has prevented the implementation of your injurious policies towards us. Notwithstanding those events, we are very close to experiencing the ill effects of your effort to limit us. For as long as that effort continues, we must do the best that we can to protect our own interests, before we address yours.
Sorry to disappoint you but mine is by no means a sob story. I enjoy what I do and what I have done and only regret that I don't have more time to spend being a Comair pilot. I have been in other places and much larger equipment, and have not forgotten my former pilot group, but I like being a part of this one. With very few exceptions, Comair people are a class act! I hope that our newer pilots will learn to live up to our traditions just as I hope you will learn to become a real Delta pilot like the old school, which was also a class act. I'm not so sure that the "new breed" lives up to the former Delta standard.
As my Chairman said, the door is still open.
Last edited:
FlyDeltasJets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 664
Your mec is actively working against the hiring of our pilots. If there were not, some Delta guys would have already been hired, like they were at ASA. We have done no such thing to your pilots in the past, yet when we suggest doing so in the future, it is we who are painted as the aggressors.
We asked you to stop opposing the hiring of Delta pilots. Your mec would not agree. Period. We did ask our mgt to hire our pilots at cmr. We were told that your pilots objected. Hence the meeting. Also, hence the reason that we did not need a meeting with ASA pilots. Spin it however you like.
As to the rest of your post, I value this profession and protecting it more than I believe in ALPA. After all, if belonging to a union means being subjected to the harmful and selfish whims of the rjdc, I would prefer to leave and found another union where the all of our careers would be protected. This profession means more to me than any union, and I am more than proud if that is showing my "true colors." Your group and actions, if successful, will bring us all down to the level of busdrivers, competing for flying by being the lowest bidder, and you question my motivations?
We will prevail. We will survive the jealous and selfish actions of a few, and we will remember them in future issues of "Flying the Line" as a sad bunch, unhappy with the direction their careers took, and therefore willing to sabatage the careers of their "brothers." If, in order to do so, we need to establish a new union, then so be it. You will not take our job protections, and you will not take our airplanes, no matter how hard you try.
We asked you to stop opposing the hiring of Delta pilots. Your mec would not agree. Period. We did ask our mgt to hire our pilots at cmr. We were told that your pilots objected. Hence the meeting. Also, hence the reason that we did not need a meeting with ASA pilots. Spin it however you like.
As to the rest of your post, I value this profession and protecting it more than I believe in ALPA. After all, if belonging to a union means being subjected to the harmful and selfish whims of the rjdc, I would prefer to leave and found another union where the all of our careers would be protected. This profession means more to me than any union, and I am more than proud if that is showing my "true colors." Your group and actions, if successful, will bring us all down to the level of busdrivers, competing for flying by being the lowest bidder, and you question my motivations?
We will prevail. We will survive the jealous and selfish actions of a few, and we will remember them in future issues of "Flying the Line" as a sad bunch, unhappy with the direction their careers took, and therefore willing to sabatage the careers of their "brothers." If, in order to do so, we need to establish a new union, then so be it. You will not take our job protections, and you will not take our airplanes, no matter how hard you try.
dsee8driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
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wil
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100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
...in the eyes of ALPA and MEC's like yours, regional pilots don't have a profession, they are merely aspirants and therefore disposable.
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Agreed.
This sums up the impression of a great many regional pilots that I know. Frankly, our attitude is that you can negotiate whatever you are able to get. However, don't expect sympathy when you find yourself sliding backward. I've yet to make much of a living in this business. You will no doubt tell me it is due to my lower value as a pilot. After all, you got yours, so you were worthy, apparently. I don't care if you get a 50% raise. I also don't care if you get a 50% cut.
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We will prevail. We will survive the jealous and selfish actions of a few, and we will remember them in future issues of "Flying the Line" as a sad bunch, unhappy with the direction their careers took, and therefore willing to sabatage the careers of their "brothers." If, in order to do so, we need to establish a new union, then so be it. You will not take our job protections, and you will not take our airplanes, no matter how hard you try.
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An adolescent-flavored rant does nothing to solidify your credibility.
...jealous...selfish...sad, unhappy bunch...saboteurs...
"You will not take our airplanes" .. Do you hear me?!
FDJ: You make many valid points, but in a way that garners imperceptibly low levels of empathy, which is the coin of the realm in all things politic.
...in the eyes of ALPA and MEC's like yours, regional pilots don't have a profession, they are merely aspirants and therefore disposable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed.
This sums up the impression of a great many regional pilots that I know. Frankly, our attitude is that you can negotiate whatever you are able to get. However, don't expect sympathy when you find yourself sliding backward. I've yet to make much of a living in this business. You will no doubt tell me it is due to my lower value as a pilot. After all, you got yours, so you were worthy, apparently. I don't care if you get a 50% raise. I also don't care if you get a 50% cut.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We will prevail. We will survive the jealous and selfish actions of a few, and we will remember them in future issues of "Flying the Line" as a sad bunch, unhappy with the direction their careers took, and therefore willing to sabatage the careers of their "brothers." If, in order to do so, we need to establish a new union, then so be it. You will not take our job protections, and you will not take our airplanes, no matter how hard you try.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
An adolescent-flavored rant does nothing to solidify your credibility.
...jealous...selfish...sad, unhappy bunch...saboteurs...
"You will not take our airplanes" .. Do you hear me?!
FDJ: You make many valid points, but in a way that garners imperceptibly low levels of empathy, which is the coin of the realm in all things politic.
FlyDeltasJets
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- 664
Holy Cow 100LL!
Did you read the first half of your post before using the second half to accuse me of being "adolescent"?
Surplus' quote, and your response to it, were nothing but self-pitying nonsense, with no basis in fact. It, and statements like it, are designed only to garner sympathy from your peers and to blame us for whatever shortcomings you perceive in your contract. I have learned from my time on this board that anyone can insult mainline pilots with impunity, but any insult of regional pilots will be met with howls of protest. It's ok, I'm used to the double standard. I'm also a white male!
I hate to burst your bubble, but I have NEVER called any regional pilot "unworthy." I have never, in all my posts, questioned any pilot's qualifications, "value," character, etc. I know, and have always stated, that pilots are pilots regardless of what airline they fly for. Unlike many, Surplus included, I have never stereotyped an entire pilot group by the actions of a few. I have ALWAYS supported every pilot group in their contract negotiations. Unlike you, it seems, I DO care whether you get a 50% raise or a 50% cut.
The regional contracts are FAR better with ALPA on the property than they were before ALPA. Those who like to blame ALPA for their woes forget that they are flying bigger airplanes to more destinations making way more money and growing faster than ever before. Regional pilots, to a man, have fared much better with ALPA than without. ALPA has given support to this struggle every step of the way, and to ignore their contributions in favor of petty and unfair accusations garners "imperceptibly low levels of empathy." Regional contracts are low not because of some devious scheme in ALPA national to keep them that way. Truly, what purpose would that serve for anyone? They are low because mgt knows that most pilots looking for their first regional job would cut off their arm to fly something with a turbine. I know, I was one of them. They are low because people have actually paid mgt to work for them (I was NEVER one of them). And further, they are low because many of the pilots have allowed them to be so. That is why I have always commeded cmr on their courageous strike. That's why I'm glad we signed their letter of mutual support during their negotiations. It's just a shame they refused to do the same for us (a rarely reported fact).
No one is out to get you, despite Surplus' rantings. He and his group, however, are out to get us. They have sued our union for $15,000,000,000. They have sued to eliminate my scope clause so cmr can take our airplanes. Don't take my word for it. Don't take his. Go to the website and read the suit (it's in the "downloads" section). If you think that this attack on our profession will not be met with an emotional response, you will be disappointed.
Apparently, it is ok for those from the regional side of the fence to make "adolescent-flavored rants" and value judgements about mainline pilots, but when one of us vows to protect his own flying, he is being less than "politic."
Thanks for the advice. Fortunately, fighting the rjdc is not a popularity contest. It will be defeated in court, regardless of what I write here. And if it is not, you won't have to worry about ALPA harming your career any more, because it will be bankrupt, and the major airline pilots will have started a new union in order to protect our contracts from a "thinly-veiled" attack on them under the guise of a DFR claim.
Did you read the first half of your post before using the second half to accuse me of being "adolescent"?
Surplus' quote, and your response to it, were nothing but self-pitying nonsense, with no basis in fact. It, and statements like it, are designed only to garner sympathy from your peers and to blame us for whatever shortcomings you perceive in your contract. I have learned from my time on this board that anyone can insult mainline pilots with impunity, but any insult of regional pilots will be met with howls of protest. It's ok, I'm used to the double standard. I'm also a white male!
I hate to burst your bubble, but I have NEVER called any regional pilot "unworthy." I have never, in all my posts, questioned any pilot's qualifications, "value," character, etc. I know, and have always stated, that pilots are pilots regardless of what airline they fly for. Unlike many, Surplus included, I have never stereotyped an entire pilot group by the actions of a few. I have ALWAYS supported every pilot group in their contract negotiations. Unlike you, it seems, I DO care whether you get a 50% raise or a 50% cut.
The regional contracts are FAR better with ALPA on the property than they were before ALPA. Those who like to blame ALPA for their woes forget that they are flying bigger airplanes to more destinations making way more money and growing faster than ever before. Regional pilots, to a man, have fared much better with ALPA than without. ALPA has given support to this struggle every step of the way, and to ignore their contributions in favor of petty and unfair accusations garners "imperceptibly low levels of empathy." Regional contracts are low not because of some devious scheme in ALPA national to keep them that way. Truly, what purpose would that serve for anyone? They are low because mgt knows that most pilots looking for their first regional job would cut off their arm to fly something with a turbine. I know, I was one of them. They are low because people have actually paid mgt to work for them (I was NEVER one of them). And further, they are low because many of the pilots have allowed them to be so. That is why I have always commeded cmr on their courageous strike. That's why I'm glad we signed their letter of mutual support during their negotiations. It's just a shame they refused to do the same for us (a rarely reported fact).
No one is out to get you, despite Surplus' rantings. He and his group, however, are out to get us. They have sued our union for $15,000,000,000. They have sued to eliminate my scope clause so cmr can take our airplanes. Don't take my word for it. Don't take his. Go to the website and read the suit (it's in the "downloads" section). If you think that this attack on our profession will not be met with an emotional response, you will be disappointed.
Apparently, it is ok for those from the regional side of the fence to make "adolescent-flavored rants" and value judgements about mainline pilots, but when one of us vows to protect his own flying, he is being less than "politic."
Thanks for the advice. Fortunately, fighting the rjdc is not a popularity contest. It will be defeated in court, regardless of what I write here. And if it is not, you won't have to worry about ALPA harming your career any more, because it will be bankrupt, and the major airline pilots will have started a new union in order to protect our contracts from a "thinly-veiled" attack on them under the guise of a DFR claim.
FlyDeltasJets
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skydiverdriver
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I agree with Wil, and think that's an excellent plan. I also think it will never happen, as the Delta MEC will refuse to speak to us about it.
FDJ,
I used to think you were a very reasoned and responsible person, but now all you seem to do is rant. You keep saying the same things over and over, and most of them make no sense. You take a little bit of truth, and blow it up into something that is not true.
I still think you are a reasonable person, but if you keep talking like you are, nobody is going to listen to you. Perhaps if you just take one item at a time, and stop making your entire case on every post, you might get more people willing to speak to you. Good luck to you, sir.
FDJ,
I used to think you were a very reasoned and responsible person, but now all you seem to do is rant. You keep saying the same things over and over, and most of them make no sense. You take a little bit of truth, and blow it up into something that is not true.
I still think you are a reasonable person, but if you keep talking like you are, nobody is going to listen to you. Perhaps if you just take one item at a time, and stop making your entire case on every post, you might get more people willing to speak to you. Good luck to you, sir.
FlyDeltasJets
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- 664
Thanks for the unsoliceted advice. I will admit my patience with the rjdc bunch is wearing more thin with each passing day.
I do find it ironic that my 7 paragraph response seemed to concern you, while you happily agree with every one of Surplus' multi-page rants.
When I want your advice on my posting style, I will send you a private message asking for it. Until then, why don't we concentrate on the issues.
I do find it ironic that my 7 paragraph response seemed to concern you, while you happily agree with every one of Surplus' multi-page rants.
When I want your advice on my posting style, I will send you a private message asking for it. Until then, why don't we concentrate on the issues.
Why should I speak?
Jets,
About this silence indicates approval thing...I'm new to Comair and consider myself a moderate on this issue. I'm personally good friends with a number of furloughed Delta pilots and I would love to see them here at Comair with their Delta number intact. I'm happy to be flying RJ's and if I want to fly bigger aircraft, I'll interview just like everybody else when the time comes. I think the RJDC is playing with fire though at times I'm glad they're around.
Many of the older Captains I fly with harbor some old feelings of resentment towards Delta mainline with how they were treated when we were purchased. So much so that I think some believe fighting is the only way we're ever going to get anything to secure the best future at Comair...even at the expense of ruining future oppurtunites to move to Delta. I listen to their arguments and one thing is always common...the person making it is too old to move to Delta ie. they have nothing to lose by alienating the Delta pilots. I and many of the younger Comair pilots look at them with a healthy bit of skepticism. Fair enough.
Now with that said, I am sympathetic to the furloughed Delta pilots and I want them to come aboard but the actions of the Delta MEC give a lot of evidence to what the old guys at Comair are saying. It would have been far more effective to say nothing on the issue but the outrageous threats to blackball future hiring of Comair pilots and take away our 70 seaters are doing a lot to convince me that my best interest is to, as someone said earlier, circle the wagons and defend what we have. My MEC was unreasonable but it was your MEC who quickly walked out, made these threats, and shut the door on furthur negotiating. That tells me that maybe our guys are right, you don't want fair, you want what you can take. I think my MEC wanted some things that were not reasonable but he left the door open for talks...a door that is STILL OPEN. It was your MEC who shut it and that's an extremely important point that is not stressed enough on this board. If you guys are serious about Delta pilots coming on at Comair, you are really hurting your cause with the moderates such as myself who could make a difference. I want to have civil discussions but all I get is a lot of threats and intimidation from Delta pilots. So in this environment, why should I help someone who is threatening me? As long as you're making them, I have no choice but to side with my MEC as he has more (not all) of my best interest at heart. Lower the threats and maybe you'll see more of an outcry from us and our MEC's postion can be changed.
O.
FlyDeltasJets said:
Jets,
About this silence indicates approval thing...I'm new to Comair and consider myself a moderate on this issue. I'm personally good friends with a number of furloughed Delta pilots and I would love to see them here at Comair with their Delta number intact. I'm happy to be flying RJ's and if I want to fly bigger aircraft, I'll interview just like everybody else when the time comes. I think the RJDC is playing with fire though at times I'm glad they're around.
Many of the older Captains I fly with harbor some old feelings of resentment towards Delta mainline with how they were treated when we were purchased. So much so that I think some believe fighting is the only way we're ever going to get anything to secure the best future at Comair...even at the expense of ruining future oppurtunites to move to Delta. I listen to their arguments and one thing is always common...the person making it is too old to move to Delta ie. they have nothing to lose by alienating the Delta pilots. I and many of the younger Comair pilots look at them with a healthy bit of skepticism. Fair enough.
Now with that said, I am sympathetic to the furloughed Delta pilots and I want them to come aboard but the actions of the Delta MEC give a lot of evidence to what the old guys at Comair are saying. It would have been far more effective to say nothing on the issue but the outrageous threats to blackball future hiring of Comair pilots and take away our 70 seaters are doing a lot to convince me that my best interest is to, as someone said earlier, circle the wagons and defend what we have. My MEC was unreasonable but it was your MEC who quickly walked out, made these threats, and shut the door on furthur negotiating. That tells me that maybe our guys are right, you don't want fair, you want what you can take. I think my MEC wanted some things that were not reasonable but he left the door open for talks...a door that is STILL OPEN. It was your MEC who shut it and that's an extremely important point that is not stressed enough on this board. If you guys are serious about Delta pilots coming on at Comair, you are really hurting your cause with the moderates such as myself who could make a difference. I want to have civil discussions but all I get is a lot of threats and intimidation from Delta pilots. So in this environment, why should I help someone who is threatening me? As long as you're making them, I have no choice but to side with my MEC as he has more (not all) of my best interest at heart. Lower the threats and maybe you'll see more of an outcry from us and our MEC's postion can be changed.
O.
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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- 1,533
FDJ-
Believe it or not, I have nothing against you personally - look at it this way:
I once read a story about a guy who got cut off in traffic by another car. He followed him to a stop sign and got out. The other driver got out. They were going to fight. Then they recognized each other. So much for fighting.
My point? On an individual basis, I'm sure I would be very sympathetic to most of the individuals involved here, both surplus and yourself. However, the groupthink of the mainline pilots as awhole and ALPA national leave me disillusioned and indifferent to the fate of the 'profession'. I'll care about the profession when it starts caring about me. It doesn't. Let's not pretend it does.
I am simply doing the dirty work of impolitically bringing out the collective opinion of many pilots I know. I do not resent your good fortune in this business. However, I feel that many mainline pilots have a 'royalty' mentality, and can't understand why others do not share their views. You may not have this opinion, but your statement at the end of your post seemed very bitter, angry, and well, adolescent.
Best wishes to you individually. Not to the group mentality, though.
Believe it or not, I have nothing against you personally - look at it this way:
I once read a story about a guy who got cut off in traffic by another car. He followed him to a stop sign and got out. The other driver got out. They were going to fight. Then they recognized each other. So much for fighting.
My point? On an individual basis, I'm sure I would be very sympathetic to most of the individuals involved here, both surplus and yourself. However, the groupthink of the mainline pilots as awhole and ALPA national leave me disillusioned and indifferent to the fate of the 'profession'. I'll care about the profession when it starts caring about me. It doesn't. Let's not pretend it does.
I am simply doing the dirty work of impolitically bringing out the collective opinion of many pilots I know. I do not resent your good fortune in this business. However, I feel that many mainline pilots have a 'royalty' mentality, and can't understand why others do not share their views. You may not have this opinion, but your statement at the end of your post seemed very bitter, angry, and well, adolescent.
Best wishes to you individually. Not to the group mentality, though.
FlyDeltasJets
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- Posts
- 664
Otto,
Your mec has actively worked to prevent the hiring of our pilots at your airline. We have only threatened to respond in kind. Yet it is we who are painted as the bad guy. You said that "the door is open to future negotiations." Why should we give any of our hard-won gains up simply to get you to stop objecting to the hiring of a handful of our guys? I don't think that it is we who are being unreasonable.
We will have to agree to disagree. I fully support the actions of my mec. If you support yours, then you should not be surprised at the path they have chosen. If you do not support them, I think (not threatening) that you should let them know.
I wish you luck whichever path your pilot group chooses.
Your mec has actively worked to prevent the hiring of our pilots at your airline. We have only threatened to respond in kind. Yet it is we who are painted as the bad guy. You said that "the door is open to future negotiations." Why should we give any of our hard-won gains up simply to get you to stop objecting to the hiring of a handful of our guys? I don't think that it is we who are being unreasonable.
We will have to agree to disagree. I fully support the actions of my mec. If you support yours, then you should not be surprised at the path they have chosen. If you do not support them, I think (not threatening) that you should let them know.
I wish you luck whichever path your pilot group chooses.
FlyDeltasJets
Well-known member
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- 664
100LL,
While I don't disagree that many in our group have a "royalty" mentality, I would argue that far more from your group enjoy playing the victim. We are not out to get you. There is not some conspiracy to keep your wages down. What purpose would that serve for us? You are already getting all the growth because your costs are so low. Why would we encourage more of that?
Methinks there is a fair amount of paranoia at work.
You wrote:
"I'll care about the profession when it starts caring about me. It doesn't. Let's not pretend it does."
It is not my place to lecture, but I would suggest that if more people cared more for the profession, the profession would start caring about more people.
P.S.
If my earlier post sounded angry, it was supposed to. These people are suing our union for $15,000,000,000 and trying to eliminate the job protections of another pilot group. I am angry. I am also surprised and saddened that more people aren't. I don't think that it is any wonder that this profession is in the trouble it is.
PPS
I also think that we'd get along on a personal level. I've been told (believe it or not) that I'm easy to get along with. I have no reason to think that you're not the same way. As such, (except for the occasional scab comment) I have never resorted to personal insults on this board, and I have never stereotyped an entire pilot group.
While I don't disagree that many in our group have a "royalty" mentality, I would argue that far more from your group enjoy playing the victim. We are not out to get you. There is not some conspiracy to keep your wages down. What purpose would that serve for us? You are already getting all the growth because your costs are so low. Why would we encourage more of that?
Methinks there is a fair amount of paranoia at work.
You wrote:
"I'll care about the profession when it starts caring about me. It doesn't. Let's not pretend it does."
It is not my place to lecture, but I would suggest that if more people cared more for the profession, the profession would start caring about more people.
P.S.
If my earlier post sounded angry, it was supposed to. These people are suing our union for $15,000,000,000 and trying to eliminate the job protections of another pilot group. I am angry. I am also surprised and saddened that more people aren't. I don't think that it is any wonder that this profession is in the trouble it is.
PPS
I also think that we'd get along on a personal level. I've been told (believe it or not) that I'm easy to get along with. I have no reason to think that you're not the same way. As such, (except for the occasional scab comment) I have never resorted to personal insults on this board, and I have never stereotyped an entire pilot group.
captainv
Well-known member
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- Oct 16, 2002
- Posts
- 572
FDJ,
on a point you brought up....
>Your mec has actively worked to prevent the hiring of our pilots at your airline.
... technically, i don't think that's true. they're welcome, but at the present time they'd have to give up their senority at Delta, just like every other airline pilot that comes to Comair.
just pointing this out, i'd still like for you to be able to come here without giving it up, and if the tables were turned, i'd go be the fry guy at wendy's for a few years before giving up that number.
just trying to clear the air here...
captainv
on a point you brought up....
>Your mec has actively worked to prevent the hiring of our pilots at your airline.
... technically, i don't think that's true. they're welcome, but at the present time they'd have to give up their senority at Delta, just like every other airline pilot that comes to Comair.
just pointing this out, i'd still like for you to be able to come here without giving it up, and if the tables were turned, i'd go be the fry guy at wendy's for a few years before giving up that number.
just trying to clear the air here...
captainv
FlyDeltasJets
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- 664
Captain,
Once they give up their numbers, they are not longer Delta pilots. Therefore, I think my point still stands.
However, I do see your distinction.
I also agree with you that someone would have to be nuts to give up that number. I know I'm not gonna give it up, I worked way too hard to get it!
Once they give up their numbers, they are not longer Delta pilots. Therefore, I think my point still stands.
However, I do see your distinction.
I also agree with you that someone would have to be nuts to give up that number. I know I'm not gonna give it up, I worked way too hard to get it!
trainerjet
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- Mar 21, 2002
- Posts
- 507
skydiverdriver said:
Sounds more like Surplus 1 to me. However, it is somewhat entertaining to listen over and over to the "woe is me" victim wail that is so prevalent on these threads. Yep, it's definitely all the mainline pilots do and think about, especially with all that is currently wrong in the industry today...how to keep the regional pilot down.
Clownpilot
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- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 166
LOL
STILL AT IT EH BOYS???
FDJ-
I CAN'T BELIEVE YOURE DOING THIS TO YOURSELF.
PUT THE KEYBOARD DOWN AND SLOWLY BACK AWAY.
OH, I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE THINKING. YOU THINK YOU CAN PRESENT VALID ARGUMENTS, USE REASONED THINKING AND FACTS TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION. ONLY NOW ARE YOU REALIZING THAT DOESN'T WORK. YOU'RE POUNDING YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL AND YOU'RE DOING IT TO YOURSELF. YOU HAVE TO STOP MAN. GIVE YOURSELF SOME PEACE.
FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME I ENGAGED THIS DEBATE. IT DIDN'T TAKE ME LONG TO REALIZE THESE PEOPLE CANNOT BE REASONED WITH OR DEALT WITH LIKE INDIVIDUALS.
WHY?? BECAUSE THERE IS NO BASIC MERIT TO THEIR POSITION SO THEY ARE CONSTANTLY CREATING ONE. A BRIEF LOOK AT THE PLAYERS TELLS YOU WHY.
SURPLUS- NEAR THE END OF HIS CAREER AND BITTER HE NEVER AMOUNTED TO ANYTHING BUT REALIZES HE CAN'T ACT OUT AGGRESSIVELY SO HE HAS FOUND THE ONLY VENUE HE HAS TO RETALIATE. HE CHANGES SPOTS SO OFTEN YOU CAN NEVER REALLY PIN HIM DOWN. POSTS A LEGIBLE ARGUMENT AND SOMEWHAT SKILLFULLY TWISTS THE FACTS TO FIT WHAT HE WANTS THEM TO SAY. IN SHORT, HE WASTED HIS LIFE AND HE'S ANGRY AT THE MAINLINE GUYS AND NOW HE HAS FOUND A WAY TO STICK YOU IN THE RIBS. DON'T LET HIM. JUST DON'T ENGAGE.
SKYDRIVERDIVER - SURPLUS LAPDOG
MAIN JOB IS TO YELL 'YEAH' AND 'IN YOUR FACE' AND 'THATS RIGHT SUCKA' AFTER EVERYTHING SURPLUS SAYS.
THE ABSOLUTE STUPIDEST PERSON ON THIS ENTIRE BOARD. HE ONCE POSTED A FEW OF HIS OWN IDEAS AND THE POST WAS SO RIDDLED WITH SPELLING AND GRAMMATICAL ERRORS, NOT TO MENTION A COMPLETE INABILITY TO ARTICULATE WHY HE IS SO UPSET AT YOU, THAT HE WAS RELEGATED BACK TO THUG CHEERLEADER BEFORE THE RJC PEOPLE SUSPECTED A MANIACAL RETARD HAD INVADED THEIR VENUE.
FDJ, PLEASE LEARN THE SIMPLE LESSON THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURING YOU WITH FOR SOME TIME NOW. PLEASE DON'T ENGAGE THEM. EVEN AFTER THEY LOSE THIS LAWSUIT IT WON'T END FOR THEM. IT WILL NEVER END FOR THEM. THE ONLY WAY THEY WIN IS TO BAIT YOU AND STICK YOU. IN A WAY IT IS SERVING THE PURPOSE THEY SEEK WHICK IS TO GET BACK AT THE BASTARDS WHO MADE IT AND LEFT THEM BEHIND. YOU'VE GOT OT STOP HELPING THEM DO THAT FOR YOUR OWN SAKE.
JUST SAY NO.
STILL AT IT EH BOYS???
FDJ-
I CAN'T BELIEVE YOURE DOING THIS TO YOURSELF.
PUT THE KEYBOARD DOWN AND SLOWLY BACK AWAY.
OH, I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE THINKING. YOU THINK YOU CAN PRESENT VALID ARGUMENTS, USE REASONED THINKING AND FACTS TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION. ONLY NOW ARE YOU REALIZING THAT DOESN'T WORK. YOU'RE POUNDING YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL AND YOU'RE DOING IT TO YOURSELF. YOU HAVE TO STOP MAN. GIVE YOURSELF SOME PEACE.
FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME I ENGAGED THIS DEBATE. IT DIDN'T TAKE ME LONG TO REALIZE THESE PEOPLE CANNOT BE REASONED WITH OR DEALT WITH LIKE INDIVIDUALS.
WHY?? BECAUSE THERE IS NO BASIC MERIT TO THEIR POSITION SO THEY ARE CONSTANTLY CREATING ONE. A BRIEF LOOK AT THE PLAYERS TELLS YOU WHY.
SURPLUS- NEAR THE END OF HIS CAREER AND BITTER HE NEVER AMOUNTED TO ANYTHING BUT REALIZES HE CAN'T ACT OUT AGGRESSIVELY SO HE HAS FOUND THE ONLY VENUE HE HAS TO RETALIATE. HE CHANGES SPOTS SO OFTEN YOU CAN NEVER REALLY PIN HIM DOWN. POSTS A LEGIBLE ARGUMENT AND SOMEWHAT SKILLFULLY TWISTS THE FACTS TO FIT WHAT HE WANTS THEM TO SAY. IN SHORT, HE WASTED HIS LIFE AND HE'S ANGRY AT THE MAINLINE GUYS AND NOW HE HAS FOUND A WAY TO STICK YOU IN THE RIBS. DON'T LET HIM. JUST DON'T ENGAGE.
SKYDRIVERDIVER - SURPLUS LAPDOG
MAIN JOB IS TO YELL 'YEAH' AND 'IN YOUR FACE' AND 'THATS RIGHT SUCKA' AFTER EVERYTHING SURPLUS SAYS.
THE ABSOLUTE STUPIDEST PERSON ON THIS ENTIRE BOARD. HE ONCE POSTED A FEW OF HIS OWN IDEAS AND THE POST WAS SO RIDDLED WITH SPELLING AND GRAMMATICAL ERRORS, NOT TO MENTION A COMPLETE INABILITY TO ARTICULATE WHY HE IS SO UPSET AT YOU, THAT HE WAS RELEGATED BACK TO THUG CHEERLEADER BEFORE THE RJC PEOPLE SUSPECTED A MANIACAL RETARD HAD INVADED THEIR VENUE.
FDJ, PLEASE LEARN THE SIMPLE LESSON THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURING YOU WITH FOR SOME TIME NOW. PLEASE DON'T ENGAGE THEM. EVEN AFTER THEY LOSE THIS LAWSUIT IT WON'T END FOR THEM. IT WILL NEVER END FOR THEM. THE ONLY WAY THEY WIN IS TO BAIT YOU AND STICK YOU. IN A WAY IT IS SERVING THE PURPOSE THEY SEEK WHICK IS TO GET BACK AT THE BASTARDS WHO MADE IT AND LEFT THEM BEHIND. YOU'VE GOT OT STOP HELPING THEM DO THAT FOR YOUR OWN SAKE.
JUST SAY NO.
FlyDeltasJets
Well-known member
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- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 664
Clown,
I've tried to stay away...Oh Lord, how I've tried! But then I find myself reading their propaganda, and realizing that many on this board are new to the industry and forming their own opinions, and I can't seem to let the rjdc's lies go unanswered.
My wife tells me the same thing. I have a hard time letting someone who is wrong have the last word. It's a personality flaw, but I'm working on it. Admittiing it is the first step, so they say.
I've tried to stay away...Oh Lord, how I've tried! But then I find myself reading their propaganda, and realizing that many on this board are new to the industry and forming their own opinions, and I can't seem to let the rjdc's lies go unanswered.
My wife tells me the same thing. I have a hard time letting someone who is wrong have the last word. It's a personality flaw, but I'm working on it. Admittiing it is the first step, so they say.
FlyDeltasJets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 664
trainerjet said:Sounds more like Surplus 1 to me. However, it is somewhat entertaining to listen over and over to the "woe is me" victim wail that is so prevalent on these threads. Yep, it's definitely all the mainline pilots do and think about, especially with all that is currently wrong in the industry today...how to keep the regional pilot down.
Trainer,
Did you get your latest copy of How to keep the Regional Pilots Down: An ALPA guide for mainline pilots? I got my copy, but I haven't had too much time to read it. I was too busy reading my furlough notice and press releases of all of DCI's new service.
If we are trying to keep them down, then we SUCK at it!
Last edited:
FlyDeltasJets said:
I agree with the previous posters, FDJ. You are just banging your head against the wall here. I'm sure you have noticed my much less participation here--for that very reason. Ole' Surplus has found his big fish in the little pond locale where he thinks he can alter the opinion of young, impressionable aviators into his way of martyring. Funny how more and more the tide seems to be turning against him, but I digress. Fight on the ALPA boards. Many on here have no dog in the fight anyway, and at least on the ALPA boards people have to put their name to their posts.
C
still no announcement from the judge, and I can't imagine how that can be good for RJDC folk
ClownPilot,
Quoting you.....
SURPLUS- NEAR THE END OF HIS CAREER AND BITTER HE NEVER AMOUNTED TO ANYTHING BUT REALIZES HE CAN'T ACT OUT AGGRESSIVELY SO HE HAS FOUND THE ONLY VENUE HE HAS TO RETALIATE. HE CHANGES SPOTS SO OFTEN YOU CAN NEVER REALLY PIN HIM DOWN. POSTS A LEGIBLE ARGUMENT AND SOMEWHAT SKILLFULLY TWISTS THE FACTS TO FIT WHAT HE WANTS THEM TO SAY. IN SHORT, HE WASTED HIS LIFE AND HE'S ANGRY AT THE MAINLINE GUYS AND NOW HE HAS FOUND A WAY TO STICK YOU IN THE RIBS. DON'T LET HIM. JUST DON'T ENGAGE.
I no longer have a dog in this fight (thank you, Lord) however, I do take strong exception to your characterization of someone whom you obviously do not know and have not known.
Quite some years ago, I personally knew Surplus1. I assume that you did not. While you have the right to disagree with his posts, your personal characterizations, conclusions about his career, his character, his motivations, and his life's accomplishments are not for you or anyone else on this board to judge. I found him a man to be respected and admired and not one whose life's work can be casually dispersed to the wind by someone who does not know the man. I know what he has done, I know how he has contributed to his profession and those around him. You draw conclusions about someone whom you do not know.
What right do you have to judge another whom you do not know? Shall I start making gross generalizations and defining the character of you or FDJ or anyone else on this board based on their writings?
I cannot assure you that Surplus1 should not more be characterized as bitter anymore than FDJ should be. They are two men engaged in a struggle presented to them in life. And I think it will matter less what the outcome is of this whole debacle, but more on how each is judged by his actions of honesty, integrity and respect (or lack thereof).
And how will you, CLownpilot, be judged....as you readily judge others? For your sake, I would hope not....
Quoting you.....
SURPLUS- NEAR THE END OF HIS CAREER AND BITTER HE NEVER AMOUNTED TO ANYTHING BUT REALIZES HE CAN'T ACT OUT AGGRESSIVELY SO HE HAS FOUND THE ONLY VENUE HE HAS TO RETALIATE. HE CHANGES SPOTS SO OFTEN YOU CAN NEVER REALLY PIN HIM DOWN. POSTS A LEGIBLE ARGUMENT AND SOMEWHAT SKILLFULLY TWISTS THE FACTS TO FIT WHAT HE WANTS THEM TO SAY. IN SHORT, HE WASTED HIS LIFE AND HE'S ANGRY AT THE MAINLINE GUYS AND NOW HE HAS FOUND A WAY TO STICK YOU IN THE RIBS. DON'T LET HIM. JUST DON'T ENGAGE.
I no longer have a dog in this fight (thank you, Lord) however, I do take strong exception to your characterization of someone whom you obviously do not know and have not known.
Quite some years ago, I personally knew Surplus1. I assume that you did not. While you have the right to disagree with his posts, your personal characterizations, conclusions about his career, his character, his motivations, and his life's accomplishments are not for you or anyone else on this board to judge. I found him a man to be respected and admired and not one whose life's work can be casually dispersed to the wind by someone who does not know the man. I know what he has done, I know how he has contributed to his profession and those around him. You draw conclusions about someone whom you do not know.
What right do you have to judge another whom you do not know? Shall I start making gross generalizations and defining the character of you or FDJ or anyone else on this board based on their writings?
I cannot assure you that Surplus1 should not more be characterized as bitter anymore than FDJ should be. They are two men engaged in a struggle presented to them in life. And I think it will matter less what the outcome is of this whole debacle, but more on how each is judged by his actions of honesty, integrity and respect (or lack thereof).
And how will you, CLownpilot, be judged....as you readily judge others? For your sake, I would hope not....
Typhoon1244
Member in Good Standing
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2002
- Posts
- 3,078
Forgive me if I bring up a subject that's already been covered...I've about gone blind from trying to read this whole thread.
I've already said I don't have a problem with furloughed Delta guys flying at ASA/Comair. Heck, I wish we could find a flying job for everybody who got furloughed (as long as I don't get displaced, of course--I'm kinda selfish that way).
I do have two questions about furloughed Delta pilots who get to keep their Delta numbers while at ASA:
(1) Will they be allowed to vote on our contract when the time comes?
(2) Should they?
I grant you, we're not talking about a lot of votes here...but I think the potential conflict of interest raises some interesting questions.
I've already said I don't have a problem with furloughed Delta guys flying at ASA/Comair. Heck, I wish we could find a flying job for everybody who got furloughed (as long as I don't get displaced, of course--I'm kinda selfish that way).
I do have two questions about furloughed Delta pilots who get to keep their Delta numbers while at ASA:
(1) Will they be allowed to vote on our contract when the time comes?
(2) Should they?
I grant you, we're not talking about a lot of votes here...but I think the potential conflict of interest raises some interesting questions.
Part 1 of 2
FDJ,
Three things: 1) Never mind that the Clown is criticizing you for participating. You have something to say that is worthy of being read. Although you and I disagree on the issues, you have refrained from personal attacks and slurs and conducted your self like a gentleman. I respect you for that, far more than you know.
2) Our perspective is different and our views conflict. Nevertheless, the fact that you take the time to voice those views in a forum like this is, in my opinion, worthy of praise, not criticism. As you point out, the audience here is extremely diverse ranging from inexperienced pilots very new to the industry and unionism, to mature veteran aviators. The fact that we challenge each other in debate provides a valuable opportunity for them to review conflicting viewpoints from both sides of a highly complex and controversial airline issue. The world according to Surplus1, is by no means perfect. Neither is the world according to FlyDeltasJets. If nothing else, our debate may motivate those interested to study the issues for themselves and then form their own educated opinions. The audience should be exposed to different views.
3) You contribute much to the discussion as do many others and your point of view is beneficial to all of us, including me. I hope you will continue to express your ideas by continuing to post. Thank you for your efforts.
***************
What follows is a response to a message you directed to 100LL. It contained observations that generate this reply directly to you.
I don't mind your disagreeing with anything or everything that I say. I have a problem with your remarks only when you make statements or implications that misconstrue, intentionally or otherwise, what I have previously written. I do not blame you (pl.) for any shortcomings in our contract, perceived or otherwise. I have never even implied that. You are misrepresenting my beliefs. I'll state it directly: In my opinion, the Delta pilot group is in no way responsible for any shortcomings in the CMR PWA, perceived or real.
Begging your pardon, I have to disagree. I am guilty of stereotyping a group, not based "on the actions of a few", but based on the actions of their political leaders (which in most cases they clearly support). You sir, have done exactly the same thing. The last dozen or so of your posts have been dedicated to stereotyping the Comair group, due to an MEC decision that you dislike. Those same posts also threaten and entire group repeatedly, because it will not conform to your idea of how it should react. While I may have placed mainline pilots into a category due to their politics, I don't believe I ever threatened any of you. You threaten retaliation repeatedly and consistently. I urge you to reconsider that strategy. I will try to avoid stereotyping.
That is a true statement. It is also a very misleading statement. Since there were no regional contracts before ALPA was on the property, it follows you are accurate. However, that does not mean that ALPA has been the panacea of good for regional pilots that you imply.
There are some good ALPA contracts at the regionals. There are, unfortunately, many more lousy contracts at the regionals. Should I then say that the regional contracts are far worse with ALPA on the property? I would be technically correct, just as you are, but I would also be as misleading as you are.
You appear to imply that the facts in your statement are the result of ALPA's efforts on their behalf. That is also a misleading statement. Yes, regional pilots are flying bigger airplanes, etc. That however, has absolutely nothing to do with ALPA and has actually occurred despite the ALPA.
Regional pilots can thank management for the fact that they have any jets. ALPA has consistently opposed that ever since the day that Comair bought regional jet #1. ALPA has consistently sought to limit their introduction and their number at every regional airline. ALPA continues to do so in the present.
With equal irony, regional pilots can thank management for the fact that they are flying "bigger jets". ALPA has consistently opposed the larger regional jets from day one and continues to do so. ALPA's President has stated publicly that regional pilots should not be allowed to fly 70-seat jets and that 50-seats is the "natural" dividing line. [One could suspect he was the Pope invoking the doctrine of infallibility]. ALPA has tried and failed, to stop the proliferation of regional jets with 50-seats. ALPA has tried, and failed, to prevent the introduction at regional carriers of regional jets with more than 50-seats. ALPA has subsequently tried to negotiate them away from regional pilots, who are members of the ALPA, and transfer them to mainline pilots. ALPA has supported the efforts of non-ALPA unions to transfer 70-seat jets from members of ALPA whose interests it is charged with representing.
Acting on behalf of mainline pilots, ALPA has entered into agreements that are designed specifically to force the abrogation of regional pilot seniority and contracts in order to obtain preferential hiring of mainline pilots. ALPA has coerced regional pilots into accepting such onerous terms, and is actively doing so as we write.
ALPA has itself created an alter ego airline at USAir Group for the purpose of ensuring that regional pilots would be precluded from operating "medium regional jets" and "large regional jets" (terms coined by ALPA for that specific purpose), and to guarantee that those jobs would be preferentially filled by mainline pilots and denied to regional pilots who are members of ALPA. That alter ego airline violates the PWA of at least one regional carrier whose pilots are represented by ALPA.
ALPA, by its actions in opposition to regional pilots' operating bigger airplanes, has facilitated the creation of two non-union alter ego airlines; one of them on an ALPA property and the other on AFLCIO union property.
On the former property, the result has been the need for ALPA members to forego all feasible opportunity for contract improvement, in order to protect their jobs and seniority against the ALPA-facilitated alter ego. ALPA has expended large sums of money fighting the very alter ego that its policy helped to create. The net result will be a grossly inferior CBA at the affected ALPA carrier, a regional, and the coerced implementation of ALPA's Jets-for-Jobs protocol.
On the IBT property those IBT pilots are struggling to defend their union jobs, while ALPA remains conspicuously silent. Why? Because the jobs at the alter ego will go exclusively to mainline ALPA members, at the direct expense of the IBT regional pilots. One union (ALPA) literally stealing jobs from another union (IBT) and for what? So that mainline pilots may get those jet jobs, instead of the regional pilots that otherwise would.
ALPA has adamantly opposed the introduction of 90-seat regional jets, even where they were not prohibited by Scope clauses, alleging that only mainline pilots should fly them. While ostensibly negotiating on behalf of the regional pilots that would ultimately fly them and whose company has purchased them, ALPA is simultaneously negotiating on behalf of a mainline pilot group to prevent their introduction and operation.
On behalf of the Delta pilot group, ALPA has successfully negotiated to cap the introduction of 70-seat regional jets purchased by Comair and ASA (prior to their acquisition by Delta) while simultaneously ensuring that those "permitted" must be spread among as many as 5 different airlines, rather than the 2 regional airlines that originally purchased and optioned them. ALPA's action facilitates management's efforts at whipsaw, and directly reduces the career expectations and earning capacity of two separate, ALPA represented, pilot groups with over 3000 ALPA members.
At the same time, ALPA has introduced at Delta, limitations on 50-seat regional jet flying, spread over 4 ALPA carriers, that directly threaten the future career opportunities of other ALPA members at their own airlines. While doing so, ALPA has formally denied at least two of the affected regional pilot groups, the right to bargain with the controlling employer in their own behalf.
So, that part of your statement is not only misleading it is an outright contradiction of the truth.
In the light of the foregoing, do tell me how it is that you see regional pilots as having "fared much better" as a consequence of their membership in the ALPA. Your perspective focuses, without evidence, on what ALPA has done for regional pilots. My perspective focuses, with supporting evidence, on what ALPA has done to regional pilots. If I am wrong, I invite you to refute the evidence provided.
Continued >
FlyDeltasJets said:
FDJ,
Three things: 1) Never mind that the Clown is criticizing you for participating. You have something to say that is worthy of being read. Although you and I disagree on the issues, you have refrained from personal attacks and slurs and conducted your self like a gentleman. I respect you for that, far more than you know.
2) Our perspective is different and our views conflict. Nevertheless, the fact that you take the time to voice those views in a forum like this is, in my opinion, worthy of praise, not criticism. As you point out, the audience here is extremely diverse ranging from inexperienced pilots very new to the industry and unionism, to mature veteran aviators. The fact that we challenge each other in debate provides a valuable opportunity for them to review conflicting viewpoints from both sides of a highly complex and controversial airline issue. The world according to Surplus1, is by no means perfect. Neither is the world according to FlyDeltasJets. If nothing else, our debate may motivate those interested to study the issues for themselves and then form their own educated opinions. The audience should be exposed to different views.
3) You contribute much to the discussion as do many others and your point of view is beneficial to all of us, including me. I hope you will continue to express your ideas by continuing to post. Thank you for your efforts.
***************
What follows is a response to a message you directed to 100LL. It contained observations that generate this reply directly to you.
I don't mind your disagreeing with anything or everything that I say. I have a problem with your remarks only when you make statements or implications that misconstrue, intentionally or otherwise, what I have previously written. I do not blame you (pl.) for any shortcomings in our contract, perceived or otherwise. I have never even implied that. You are misrepresenting my beliefs. I'll state it directly: In my opinion, the Delta pilot group is in no way responsible for any shortcomings in the CMR PWA, perceived or real.
Begging your pardon, I have to disagree. I am guilty of stereotyping a group, not based "on the actions of a few", but based on the actions of their political leaders (which in most cases they clearly support). You sir, have done exactly the same thing. The last dozen or so of your posts have been dedicated to stereotyping the Comair group, due to an MEC decision that you dislike. Those same posts also threaten and entire group repeatedly, because it will not conform to your idea of how it should react. While I may have placed mainline pilots into a category due to their politics, I don't believe I ever threatened any of you. You threaten retaliation repeatedly and consistently. I urge you to reconsider that strategy. I will try to avoid stereotyping.
That is a true statement. It is also a very misleading statement. Since there were no regional contracts before ALPA was on the property, it follows you are accurate. However, that does not mean that ALPA has been the panacea of good for regional pilots that you imply.
There are some good ALPA contracts at the regionals. There are, unfortunately, many more lousy contracts at the regionals. Should I then say that the regional contracts are far worse with ALPA on the property? I would be technically correct, just as you are, but I would also be as misleading as you are.
You appear to imply that the facts in your statement are the result of ALPA's efforts on their behalf. That is also a misleading statement. Yes, regional pilots are flying bigger airplanes, etc. That however, has absolutely nothing to do with ALPA and has actually occurred despite the ALPA.
Regional pilots can thank management for the fact that they have any jets. ALPA has consistently opposed that ever since the day that Comair bought regional jet #1. ALPA has consistently sought to limit their introduction and their number at every regional airline. ALPA continues to do so in the present.
With equal irony, regional pilots can thank management for the fact that they are flying "bigger jets". ALPA has consistently opposed the larger regional jets from day one and continues to do so. ALPA's President has stated publicly that regional pilots should not be allowed to fly 70-seat jets and that 50-seats is the "natural" dividing line. [One could suspect he was the Pope invoking the doctrine of infallibility]. ALPA has tried and failed, to stop the proliferation of regional jets with 50-seats. ALPA has tried, and failed, to prevent the introduction at regional carriers of regional jets with more than 50-seats. ALPA has subsequently tried to negotiate them away from regional pilots, who are members of the ALPA, and transfer them to mainline pilots. ALPA has supported the efforts of non-ALPA unions to transfer 70-seat jets from members of ALPA whose interests it is charged with representing.
Acting on behalf of mainline pilots, ALPA has entered into agreements that are designed specifically to force the abrogation of regional pilot seniority and contracts in order to obtain preferential hiring of mainline pilots. ALPA has coerced regional pilots into accepting such onerous terms, and is actively doing so as we write.
ALPA has itself created an alter ego airline at USAir Group for the purpose of ensuring that regional pilots would be precluded from operating "medium regional jets" and "large regional jets" (terms coined by ALPA for that specific purpose), and to guarantee that those jobs would be preferentially filled by mainline pilots and denied to regional pilots who are members of ALPA. That alter ego airline violates the PWA of at least one regional carrier whose pilots are represented by ALPA.
ALPA, by its actions in opposition to regional pilots' operating bigger airplanes, has facilitated the creation of two non-union alter ego airlines; one of them on an ALPA property and the other on AFLCIO union property.
On the former property, the result has been the need for ALPA members to forego all feasible opportunity for contract improvement, in order to protect their jobs and seniority against the ALPA-facilitated alter ego. ALPA has expended large sums of money fighting the very alter ego that its policy helped to create. The net result will be a grossly inferior CBA at the affected ALPA carrier, a regional, and the coerced implementation of ALPA's Jets-for-Jobs protocol.
On the IBT property those IBT pilots are struggling to defend their union jobs, while ALPA remains conspicuously silent. Why? Because the jobs at the alter ego will go exclusively to mainline ALPA members, at the direct expense of the IBT regional pilots. One union (ALPA) literally stealing jobs from another union (IBT) and for what? So that mainline pilots may get those jet jobs, instead of the regional pilots that otherwise would.
ALPA has adamantly opposed the introduction of 90-seat regional jets, even where they were not prohibited by Scope clauses, alleging that only mainline pilots should fly them. While ostensibly negotiating on behalf of the regional pilots that would ultimately fly them and whose company has purchased them, ALPA is simultaneously negotiating on behalf of a mainline pilot group to prevent their introduction and operation.
On behalf of the Delta pilot group, ALPA has successfully negotiated to cap the introduction of 70-seat regional jets purchased by Comair and ASA (prior to their acquisition by Delta) while simultaneously ensuring that those "permitted" must be spread among as many as 5 different airlines, rather than the 2 regional airlines that originally purchased and optioned them. ALPA's action facilitates management's efforts at whipsaw, and directly reduces the career expectations and earning capacity of two separate, ALPA represented, pilot groups with over 3000 ALPA members.
At the same time, ALPA has introduced at Delta, limitations on 50-seat regional jet flying, spread over 4 ALPA carriers, that directly threaten the future career opportunities of other ALPA members at their own airlines. While doing so, ALPA has formally denied at least two of the affected regional pilot groups, the right to bargain with the controlling employer in their own behalf.
So, that part of your statement is not only misleading it is an outright contradiction of the truth.
In the light of the foregoing, do tell me how it is that you see regional pilots as having "fared much better" as a consequence of their membership in the ALPA. Your perspective focuses, without evidence, on what ALPA has done for regional pilots. My perspective focuses, with supporting evidence, on what ALPA has done to regional pilots. If I am wrong, I invite you to refute the evidence provided.
Continued >
Part 2 of 2
Support to whom? To the regional pilots that it represents or the mainline pilots that it represents? If you can refute any of what I said above, please do so. I would really like to see your arguments. If you can provide evidence of ALPA's support for the struggle of its regional members please do so. My definition of "support" is not satisfied by the mere provision of basic services for which all members pay dues.
"Petty and unfair accusations"? Tell me which one you think is petty and which one you think is unfair. I would truly like to know.
Maybe my statements do garner "imperceptibly low levels of empathy" (as you were accused of doing) among mainline pilots, but I risk believing that the picture is quite different among regional pilots. The only real problem I see is that many regional pilots appear to be afraid to speak out in their own behalf. I wonder why that is? Could it be because they are afraid of threats and recriminations similar to the ones that you have been making and fostering against Comair pilots?
By now you've probably figured out that I am one regional pilot who is NOT afraid to say what he thinks or tell it like it is. Luckily for me, there are many more regional pilots like me who also are not afraid. They are called Comair pilots. I would also recognize the many pilots at ASA that are not afraid to speak out and tell it as it is. One day we will all speak out and I for one, hope that day comes far sooner than later.
I don't think that you are out to "get us", FDJ. I think you've already "got us" and it is our fault for not standing up to prevent it sooner. We are not out to get you, we are merely out to reverse what you have done and are trying to do to us, and to prevent it in the future.
While your math is typical of your general misunderstanding of the real world we both live in, we have indeed sued "our" union. Perhaps the current litigation will succumb to your predictions and fail in court. In that event, we won't have to wait long for the ALPA to provide another opportunity, at which point there will be another suit and then another, until such time as ALPA's failure to represent our interests is estopped and its DFR to regional pilot members enforced. We are not going to give up the struggle and vanish into the night so don't hold your breath on that account.
We have not sued to eliminate your scope clause so that Comair can take your airplanes. Bluntly, that is a fabrication of yours that you're trying to sell. We have sued to prevent your scope clause from taking our airplanes and with them our career expectations and our future earning potential. Our own Scope excludes you from nothing. Your Scope attempts to exclude us from our livelihoods.
There's no attack on the profession, FDJ. The "profession" is ours as much as it is yours. You belong to a group of airline pilots; so do we. To attack ourselves would infer that we are stupid. Call us whatever you choose, but be assured we are not stupid. In reality, our action is not an attack at all, it is a defense. We are just trying to repel boarders. If you number yourself among the boarders, then you are subject to being repelled; not withstanding the extent of the emotional response. It is not your emotions that we are concerned about, it is your actions and those of our union.
These are very difficult issues and I readily confess that I am no less emotional in defense of my views than you are in defense of yours. Conflicts of this nature, more often than not, cause humans to emote.
For the record, Surplus1 does not accuse you of an adolescent-flavored rant. I take your remarks and opinions very seriously for I am well aware that they reflect clearly the general thought process of the group to which you belong. They are not ranting at all. They are a serious threat to our well being.
The Camel's nose is under our tent and the fox is in the hen house. Your associate csmith depicted your thought process quite accurately when he referred to us as remora. It is not at all flattering to be regarded as "suckerfish". Your collective opinions, reflect clearly your collective intent.
I don't expect that we can change that intent but we can do our very best to frustrate it. We're trying.
I would urge you to remain in the Association and join us in correcting the errors of its current policies. ALPA was a fine institution. It both can and should be restored to its intended purpose and you should help to do that rather than constantly threatening to leave, if you are unable to impose your will on others. Since you express the desire to "protect the profession", that might be a great way for you to start trying.
If ALPA is to become "the pilots union", then ALPA must begin by ensuring that it represents fairly the diverse interests of its diverse membership. It must be changed from an oligarchy to a real democracy. The cancer of political patronage by and to the wealthy must be cut out and destroyed. We could start the process by selecting statesmen to govern us, as opposed to politicians whose number one effort is not the preservation of our profession, but the preservation of their power.
Again, I am grateful for the opportunity to debate these issues with you and others.
Support to whom? To the regional pilots that it represents or the mainline pilots that it represents? If you can refute any of what I said above, please do so. I would really like to see your arguments. If you can provide evidence of ALPA's support for the struggle of its regional members please do so. My definition of "support" is not satisfied by the mere provision of basic services for which all members pay dues.
"Petty and unfair accusations"? Tell me which one you think is petty and which one you think is unfair. I would truly like to know.
Maybe my statements do garner "imperceptibly low levels of empathy" (as you were accused of doing) among mainline pilots, but I risk believing that the picture is quite different among regional pilots. The only real problem I see is that many regional pilots appear to be afraid to speak out in their own behalf. I wonder why that is? Could it be because they are afraid of threats and recriminations similar to the ones that you have been making and fostering against Comair pilots?
By now you've probably figured out that I am one regional pilot who is NOT afraid to say what he thinks or tell it like it is. Luckily for me, there are many more regional pilots like me who also are not afraid. They are called Comair pilots. I would also recognize the many pilots at ASA that are not afraid to speak out and tell it as it is. One day we will all speak out and I for one, hope that day comes far sooner than later.
I don't think that you are out to "get us", FDJ. I think you've already "got us" and it is our fault for not standing up to prevent it sooner. We are not out to get you, we are merely out to reverse what you have done and are trying to do to us, and to prevent it in the future.
While your math is typical of your general misunderstanding of the real world we both live in, we have indeed sued "our" union. Perhaps the current litigation will succumb to your predictions and fail in court. In that event, we won't have to wait long for the ALPA to provide another opportunity, at which point there will be another suit and then another, until such time as ALPA's failure to represent our interests is estopped and its DFR to regional pilot members enforced. We are not going to give up the struggle and vanish into the night so don't hold your breath on that account.
We have not sued to eliminate your scope clause so that Comair can take your airplanes. Bluntly, that is a fabrication of yours that you're trying to sell. We have sued to prevent your scope clause from taking our airplanes and with them our career expectations and our future earning potential. Our own Scope excludes you from nothing. Your Scope attempts to exclude us from our livelihoods.
There's no attack on the profession, FDJ. The "profession" is ours as much as it is yours. You belong to a group of airline pilots; so do we. To attack ourselves would infer that we are stupid. Call us whatever you choose, but be assured we are not stupid. In reality, our action is not an attack at all, it is a defense. We are just trying to repel boarders. If you number yourself among the boarders, then you are subject to being repelled; not withstanding the extent of the emotional response. It is not your emotions that we are concerned about, it is your actions and those of our union.
These are very difficult issues and I readily confess that I am no less emotional in defense of my views than you are in defense of yours. Conflicts of this nature, more often than not, cause humans to emote.
For the record, Surplus1 does not accuse you of an adolescent-flavored rant. I take your remarks and opinions very seriously for I am well aware that they reflect clearly the general thought process of the group to which you belong. They are not ranting at all. They are a serious threat to our well being.
The Camel's nose is under our tent and the fox is in the hen house. Your associate csmith depicted your thought process quite accurately when he referred to us as remora. It is not at all flattering to be regarded as "suckerfish". Your collective opinions, reflect clearly your collective intent.
I don't expect that we can change that intent but we can do our very best to frustrate it. We're trying.
I would urge you to remain in the Association and join us in correcting the errors of its current policies. ALPA was a fine institution. It both can and should be restored to its intended purpose and you should help to do that rather than constantly threatening to leave, if you are unable to impose your will on others. Since you express the desire to "protect the profession", that might be a great way for you to start trying.
If ALPA is to become "the pilots union", then ALPA must begin by ensuring that it represents fairly the diverse interests of its diverse membership. It must be changed from an oligarchy to a real democracy. The cancer of political patronage by and to the wealthy must be cut out and destroyed. We could start the process by selecting statesmen to govern us, as opposed to politicians whose number one effort is not the preservation of our profession, but the preservation of their power.
Again, I am grateful for the opportunity to debate these issues with you and others.
FlyDeltasJets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 664
Surplus,
Thank you for the kind words.
I am leaving for a few days, so this will be short. My only response to you is that if ALPA had been successful with their efforts to keep jets at mainline, we would all be on the same side of the fence, and no one would be complaining about regional contracts. It is ironic, and very telling (if one takes the time to examine it) that you yourself thanked management for the fact that you have jets. Do you think mgt did that out of some altruistic need to help you? Or do you think it was far less expensive to give them to you, and therefore lowered the compensation of thousands of pilots and created a whipsaw.
You're darn right ALPA fought jets at carriers who do outsourced work. I only wish they had fought harder. We would all have been better off.
Thank you for the kind words.
I am leaving for a few days, so this will be short. My only response to you is that if ALPA had been successful with their efforts to keep jets at mainline, we would all be on the same side of the fence, and no one would be complaining about regional contracts. It is ironic, and very telling (if one takes the time to examine it) that you yourself thanked management for the fact that you have jets. Do you think mgt did that out of some altruistic need to help you? Or do you think it was far less expensive to give them to you, and therefore lowered the compensation of thousands of pilots and created a whipsaw.
You're darn right ALPA fought jets at carriers who do outsourced work. I only wish they had fought harder. We would all have been better off.
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