Respected company “Rolls Learjet”

[Cactus-741 KCMH]

As many know, AirNet Systems has some of the best pilots out there. I have jump seated on them numerous times, and I have great respect for what they do. The training department, is categorically the best out there, no doubt for their type of operation, but as many of you may know by now, recently a crew decided to have a little fun with one of the Learjet’s and damaged the airplane. I just understand that it was that particular crew’s last assignment on that route. I’d like to know more about that situation (details people details),,, I am typed in the Lear, and I too flew cargo,, but I never quite had the you know what’s to roll her over. If any of you out there have ever ferried a company airplane,, weather you actually did it or not,, admit it or not,,,, you know deep down inside you have wanted to have a bit of fun too. The extent of fun I have had in the A319 (91) is trying to make a steep turn onto final at Sky Harbor (Wow) Not much of the daredevil type,,, but as many know the airplane won’t give you too much room for fun anyway before the dog bites your hand and tells you sit on them… I’d love to hear some of your stories of fun you have had in a company airplane. Even war stories that made you have to check your seat when you got on the ground are welcome. And by the way, I hope the crew that had the accident is okay I’m sure they’re good pilots,,, and surly hope the FAA takes it easy on them,,, if they were involved. Anyway I’d still fly next to any AirNet pilot any day,, that incident doesn’t by any stretch lower their rep …….

 

[Windsor]

If any of you out there have ever ferried a company airplane,, weather you actually did it or not,, admit it or not,,,, you know deep down inside you have wanted to have a bit of fun too. I’d love to hear some of your stories of fun you have had in a company airplane. Even war stories that made you have to check your seat when you got on the ground are welcome. quote]

Sounds like something a Fed with too much time on his hands would ask.

 

[mynameisjim]

This one time I didn't call "Positive Rate". The Captain reminded me, then I put the gear up like I usually do.

 

[N60OSU]

As many know, AirNet Systems has some of the best pilots out there. I have jump seated on them numerous times, and I have great respect for what they do. The training department, is categorically the best out there, no doubt for their type of operation, but as many of you may know by now, recently a crew decided to have a little fun with one of the Learjet’s and damaged the airplane. I just understand that it was that particular crew’s last assignment on that route. I’d like to know more about that situation (details people details)...And by the way, I hope the crew that had the accident is okay I’m sure they’re good pilots,,, and surly hope the FAA takes it easy on them,,, if they were involved. Anyway I’d still fly next to any AirNet pilot any day,, that incident doesn’t by any stretch lower their rep …….

It's being handled internally and quite decisively.

I appreciate your positive comments about Airnet. As a Starchecker it's nice to hear such affirmation. However by the nature of this incident I don't think there is anything to be gained or learned by discussing the details in a public forum.

Perhaps the formal reporting processes (NASA, NTSB) will in time provide any details you seek.

 

[RedGuy]

I don't hope the fed's go easy on them and I don't feel sorry for the crew at all. I know you may get the urge to have alittle fun, but that's not what these planes where made for, it's not your plane, it ********************s up the equipment, they obviously didn't know what they where doing, it's unsafe, irresponsible and unprofessional. I don't know why people have this idea that rolling an airplane is easy or safe to do in A/C not designed for aerobatics. Your on the clock you shouldn't be screwing around with the equipment like that. If you really want to do aerobatics do it the right way go rent an aerobatic A/C with an instructor trained in aerobatics. There's also alot of people out there that like to talk big and say they've rolled this and they've rolled that, but in reality I doubt hardly any of them have been in more than a 60 deg bank.

 

[OUPilot]

yeah, i agree with 600su. i hope that all of us at airnet will just let any report speak for itself. no need to post stuff like this on a public forum. thanks for the positive words about airnet though!

 

[AlbieF15]

Discipline is a hallmark of a professional. The nastiest debrief I ever gave was in response to looking over my shoulder on a 3 ship redeployment sortie and seeing another IP on my wing doing an aileron roll on an airway.

It never left the debrief, but I think my points were taken to heart.

If I can't trust you--you are worthless to me in combat. If I can't trust you, you are worthless to me as a friend. Discipline=excellence.

Sounds like a pilot with good hands forgot good hands are only part of the equation...

I own a Navion. I've heard more than a few people wink and say "they roll nice..." Well...it ain't certified for aerobatics. Having done 2 owner assisted annuals, I am pretty sure the plane is darn solid and wouldn't hurt it a bit. However--it ain't gonna happen with me in my plane. I've done acro in military trainers and the F15, and if I want to do acro in GA I'll get a plane built for it. Guys who feel compelled to show off eventually kill people, break airplanes, and/or lose jobs. Being undisciplined doesn't make you cool--it makes you an accident waiting to happen.

 

[honeycomb]

Those instruments aren't designed for rolls or any other type of beyond gimble operation.

Now, who wants to go shoot an ILS down to mins with a p.o.s. ADI/HSI/etc.

Most people don't let the gyro's spool down before tugging them either. Same results.

AlbieF15 is right Discipline = Excellence.

Oh yeah, like N60OSU said ... this should be a private a$$ whoooooooopin.

 

[Nolife]

If any of you out there have ever ferried a company airplane,, weather you actually did it or not,, admit it or not,,,, you know deep down inside you have wanted to have a bit of fun too. I’d love to hear some of your stories of fun you have had in a company airplane. Even war stories that made you have to check your seat when you got on the ground are welcome. quote]

Sounds like something a Fed with too much time on his hands would ask.

Exactly what I was thinking... so here goes. I was flying N69XXX on 12/32/06 when I rolled inverted.... :0

I'd also keep quiet about steep turns on final in an A319. Feds and company might not be happy to hear about that.

BTW... doesn't Airbus logic limit you to 45 degrees with clean wing and 30 with flaps?

 

[Rogue5]

Are you freaking kidding me?!

Didn't anyone learn anything from this:

http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2005/Pinnacle/default.htm

 

[airjake]

This incident is not a reflection of the professionalism or standards of the people I fly with nightly or of our training department. Thank you for the kind words in the original post but I doubt you will get any insider info here.

 

[ableone]

Flying below ref on approach is dangerous in a lear (depending on the wing installed of course), rolling one... I am pretty straight arrowed but as long as the guy was not trying a max rate roll with the tip tanks full it shouldn't be a problem.

Then again I know guys who have looped the lear and though I would not want to be onboard it has been done successfully.

Apparently even idiots can successfully roll a lear. I had a line check down to Mexico with the owner of the freight disaster I worked for and he flew back. He kept it on the deck after TO and did a nice roll below 500agl. (Before the web board erupts with the chorus of "Why didn't you stop him." comments let me point out, to those who have not flown one, that if someone decides to do a high rate roll on a lear, unanounced, you won't realize it until you are inverted, that you are in an airshow.) Though this guy had nearly lost a lear earlier because he decided that jets could be slipped, and later flew one through a tree line, I had no major qualms about his roll.

If I had to ride on one of two lears and one guy wanted to roll it and the other wanted to fly formation I would ride on the roller.

 

[FO 4 Life]

I bet Hoover could roll that thing and not spill a drop.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

Was there something new that happened or is still talk from the UCA incident a few years ago?

 

[CherryBomb]

Bobby Younkin did quite an aerobatic routine in a Lear...

 

[Windsor]

Now, who wants to go shoot an ILS down to mins with a p.o.s. ADI/HSI/etc.

Happens every day. Welcome to freight dawgin.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I don't know why people have this idea that rolling an airplane is easy or safe to do in A/C not designed for aerobatics.

I don't know either. Maybe from watching that video of Bob Hoover on You-Tube, rolling an airplane "not designed for aerobatics" while pouring a glass of iced tea?

Questions of legality and professional discipline aside, rolling most airplanes isn't that big of a deal, if it's done right. At least it's not as far as the airplane is concerned. Properly executed, it needn't subject the airframe to more than 1.5-2.0 G's. What effect it may have on the instruments is another matter, although it seems to me that an HSI that could be damaged by excessive roll or pitch inputs has no place on anything other than a general aviation airplane anyway.

One of the biggest problems I see with rolling an airplane like a Lear is that not all of us have the skills of a Bob Hoover or Bobby Younkin. If you don't know what you're doing, it easy to dish out of a roll and exceed airspeed or "G" limitations. The danger in that of course is that it's impossible to know what you don't know until you've tried it.

Another problem is that in a 2-pilot airplane (or a single-pilot airplane in a three-ship formation), you're leaving witnesses to your misdeed. Stuff like that eventually gets around, and can have career-altering consequences.

I've rolled a few airplanes in my time, including several that clearly weren't intended to be rolled, and I'm still here to tell about it. But if I had a guy working for me that did the same thing, I'd fire his a$$ in a heartbeat, if for no other reason than to discourage other guys from trying it.

 

[400A]

I bet Hoover could roll that thing and not spill a drop.

I had a guy roll me in a Starship with half full cup of coffee by his left knee and it never moved, not even a drop. Also as mentioned before, if you did not know it was coming, by the time you realize what is going on, it is to late to stop it.

 

[cruxx@9]

… I’d love to hear some of your stories of fun you have had in a company airplane. Even war stories that made you have to check your seat when you got on the ground are welcome. ….

Dude...are you high?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

...I had a line check down to Mexico with the owner of the freight disaster I worked for and he flew back. He kept it on the deck after TO and did a nice roll below 500agl.

That's the stupidest #$%&*! thing I ever heard of. All it takes is one goosey guy with access to the flight controls to start trying to "undo" his roll as he goes over the top, and the next thing you know, you're toast. No...croutons...many, many little pieces of toast.

Congratulations...you obviously survived working for this Bozo. That alone should qualify you for some sort of "Civilian Battle Ribbon" or something.

If I had to ride on one of two lears and one guy wanted to roll it and the other wanted to fly formation I would ride on the roller.

I'd tell both of 'em to go pound sand, and take the bus home. All jobs, especially those at the end of aviation at which this stuff seems to be tolerated, are temporary. Crashes (and violations) are forever. When dealing with guys like you've described, I'd much rather read about their misdeeds than be a party to them.