Republic orders 40 C-Series Aircraft

[BoilerUP]

(anyone else notice AA farming out their regional work to other carriers because Eagle is too expensive?)

Hate to interrupt a good rant, but that's not accurate.

AA has a contract with Chautauqua that they inherited when they bought TWA. AA is effectively shrinking the once-prominent STL hub to nothingness, and needed to shift those CHQ airplanes somewhere they could actually be used. THAT is why CHQ is "stealing" Eagle CHQ flying.

AA isn't "farming out their regional work" because "Eagle is too expensive" - they're doing it because they're contractually bound to put those CHQ airplanes to work...for at least a few more years. Once that contract is up, I wouldn't expect to see solid blue chickens for much longer.

Then again, AMR could always terminate the CHQ contract and face the penalties, namely absorbing those airplanes from RAH and paying back RAH for every penny in lease payments/debt service they've made on those 140s since they've been in AX service.

 

[cale42]

boiler..

I can't contest what your saying, that may be true.. but a few questions then.

1. Why are the Eagle pilots grieving it, if they know it is a contractual obligation?

2. Is it not still paying for cheaper labor? They were happy to inherit that contract and put it to use.

3. Does it not continue to damage career expectations at Eagle, one of the few career regionals out there?

 

[BoilerUP]

1. Why are the Eagle pilots grieving it, if they know it is a contractual obligation?

Because they have their own contractual language with AMR that is completely independent of CHQ/RAH's contract with AMR.

2. Is it not still paying for cheaper labor? They were happy to inherit that contract and put it to use.

Is the labor at CHQ cheaper than Eagle? Yeah, I'm sure it is...but I dunno how "happy" they were to inherit the CHQ and Trans States TWE contracts from TWA. Again, the penalties for early termination for the CHQ capacity lift agreement are stiff (AMR absorbs the airplanes and must pay RAH back for every penny they've ever paid in debt service or lease payments while they were used in AX operation...which for the 140s was probably their whole time).

3. Does it not continue to damage career expectations at Eagle, one of the few career regionals out there?

Is Eagle shrinking because of CHQ's shift to ORD? I don't think so, and I believe Eagle is getting more CRJ-700s...and wouldn't that be damaging the career expectations at American?

 

[cale42]

Alright you win Boiler. I like to rant but I insist on it being factual. I made an unwise assumption about why CHQ got that flying and not Eagle, presented with the facts I stand corrected and will edit my post.

No doubt Eagle new CR7's damage career expectations at American. That isn't a hard example to show. I was trying to show that the regionals are undercutting each other as aggressively as ever and there may soon be no such thing as a career regional.

 

[Captain Morgan]

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, deep breath, no no no no no no no no no pause NO.

It is this exact attitude that is ruining aviation. Loving to fly should be no 9 on a top ten list for this profession. Having a good professional career with professional pay and professional treatment for SAFELY transporting lives in a pressurized tube 8 miles above the earth should encompass 1 to 8. If people would stop willing to fly and start willing to be treated like a professional the airlines wouldn't be the mess they are. Management figured out about 4 seconds after de-regulation that pilots loved to fly and have been beating them with that stick ever since.

Don't even start with me on research. I did it. All of it. Knew exactly what to expect. Scrimped to pay for flight school with minimal debt, knowing that I had 2 years of instructing and several years as a regional FO ahead of me. Did all that. Had 5 straight years of less than 25K on my W-2. Finally made it to captain. I actually made it right? Nope, airline went bankrupt, pay cuts were forced on me, airline got bought by other airline, SLI a mess, and my airline is being shut down because people(apparently) don't like props. What are my options?? Only one.. start back over at my third regional for 18K a year. Or leave aviation.

When I did my research as you like to term it in 01-02 I knew Sept 11 would have an impact on the industry. However at the time the majors were still on good contracts the regionals were strictly limited to 50 seats or less. Unless your research was a sh!t ton better than my it didn't indicate that the majors would shed 10 thousand plus pilots jobs, and outsource every single bit of their 100 seat and less flying. It didn't indicate oil would be 160 bucks a barrel and ruin a fledgling recovery. It didn't discuss the term virtual airline. It didn't show that multiple regionals would also shed thousands of jobs. It didn't indicate the worst economy in eight decades.

If your research did indicate all that, then I have some work for you, because I sure didn't know those things 9 years ago.

Before I can even contemplate staying in this industry I would like your research answers on the following questions. Will the majors EVER hire again(I think this is a more realistic question than people want to acknowledge)? Will any regional make it(statement redacted per Boilers post below.) Or if I spend the next 35 years in the industry will start over as a regional FO making 18K a year 14 more times?

Just some things to think about before you question peoples research and say they should just love to fly.

Oh and by the way I would consider myself to have been one of the lucky ones.. many many good people F'ed way harder than myself.

cale

The love of flying was here long before people like you jumped onto the bandwagon to reap the rewards of what was established by the very people you hate. Now you think about that the next time you piss on aviation and the people who love it.

 

[cale42]

The love of flying was here long before people like you jumped onto the bandwagon to reap the rewards of what was established by the very people you hate. Now you think about that the next time you piss on aviation and the people who love it.

The 10's, 20's, and 30's were dominated by people who wanted to prove themselves as daredevils and popularized flying. These folks quickly realized they could make a ton of money by flying people around. And they did. They developed the airline business and were extremely well compensated for the responsibility of transporting passengers in those "new fangled" airplanes. Airline pilots of the 50's, 60's and 70's reaped a level of respect and compensation rivaled only by doctors. You may like to romanticize the early aviation pioneers who loved to fly but most of them parlayed that into successful careers.

I'm not pissing on aviation as a whole or a love of flying. It is alive and well in the US at hundreds of small airports and in things like the sport pilot license.

Do not for one second though try and replace the enormous responsibility of being a professional pilot with the love of aviation. I LOVE being airborne, however I PROFESSIONALLY ACCEPT the responsibility of transporting a scared to death passenger safely to their destination. There is a huge difference.

 

[ePilot22]

It is called financing. It's the same way most of us bought a house or a car. Almost all of RAH's aircraft are owned, but financed where the loans are secured by the aircraft. RAH has very little unsecured debt.

Do you actually think airlines write checks for billions of dollars?

Did UND teach you all that while you were financing your future, cause you're soooo smart. Do you make payments on your house and car or does the bank just accept your good looks?




eP.

 

[The Drizzle]

Did UND teach you all that while you were financing your future, cause you're soooo smart. Do you make payments on your house and car or does the bank just accept your good looks?




eP.

Why argue the point when you can just insult? Great job junior.

 

[Captain Morgan]

The 10's, 20's, and 30's were dominated by people who wanted to prove themselves as daredevils and popularized flying. These folks quickly realized they could make a ton of money by flying people around. And they did. They developed the airline business and were extremely well compensated for the responsibility of transporting passengers in those "new fangled" airplanes. Airline pilots of the 50's, 60's and 70's reaped a level of respect and compensation rivaled only by doctors. You may like to romanticize the early aviation pioneers who loved to fly but most of them parlayed that into successful careers.

I'm not pissing on aviation as a whole or a love of flying. It is alive and well in the US at hundreds of small airports and in things like the sport pilot license.

Do not for one second though try and replace the enormous responsibility of being a professional pilot with the love of aviation. I LOVE being airborne, however I PROFESSIONALLY ACCEPT the responsibility of transporting a scared to death passenger safely to their destination. There is a huge difference.

I love aviation AND I want a bigger paycheck, but guess what I'm not going to whine and cry about it like a lot of people on this board. This is the life I chose and I love my job. This doesn't mean I'm not going to fight for a better work contract/atmosphere. It isn't going to be done by name calling and in-fighting between groups. I also don't like people pointing fingers at people like me who actually try to make the best of what has been thrown to them instead of moping head down and grimacing through the terminal and on these boards. That's the point I'm trying to get across.

 

[ePilot22]

Why argue the point when you can just insult? Great job junior.

What was the point?




eP.

 

[rogerwilcoout]

Hmmmm, well I think some of us got into it back when regional only made up about 20-30 percent of the flying. You flew for a regional 5 years, upgraded and moved to the majors.

However now, Regionals are flying over 50% of the domestic flying! Now they are flying 100 seat Jets! So that nice job at the majors has come few and far between.

I love flying! I love my job (I wouldn't like to deal with some of the crap that comes along with it however)... But it pains many to watch people taxi'ing around in 100 seat jets that pay crap. But thats how the industry has turned and like I said..... It is what it is!!

lol my regional is better than your regional syndrome eh? Lol Who would have thought a regional pilot would be bangin on another regional pilot? Lol This is amusing. YOU are no better than any of the other regional pilots. The reason YOU have a job flying your little jet is because the mainline pilot groups didn't have the balls to hold onto scope. Oh, and because of their selfish demands. YOU are flying a regional jet because management does not want to pay a good wage to a mainline guy. YOU are just as much the problem in this industry as any other regional pilot. YOU sir, and the other message board posters that attack other regionals, don't realize what you are talking about.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If those who hate it so much would actually follow thru and get out of this business, then the supply/demand equation would shift and the pay would come up...Problem solved...That was easy!

 

[CitationLover]

The 10's, 20's, and 30's were dominated by people who wanted to prove themselves as daredevils and popularized flying. These folks quickly realized they could make a ton of money by flying people around. And they did. They developed the airline business and were extremely well compensated for the responsibility of transporting passengers in those "new fangled" airplanes. Airline pilots of the 50's, 60's and 70's reaped a level of respect and compensation rivaled only by doctors. You may like to romanticize the early aviation pioneers who loved to fly but most of them parlayed that into successful careers.

The GOVERNMENT built up the majors to what they are today. They initially funded them through their early stages as mail carriers. They approved the who got what routes through an old buddy network that continued into the modern 70's CAB with the mechanism of simply increasing ticket prices to cover the ever increasing variable costs. This is the airline pilots fundamental problem: THERE HAS NEVER BEEN FREE MARKET COMPETITION IN THIS BUSINESS PERIOD.

All of our wages are based back to government subsidies. Through anti-trust and bankruptcy protection the GOVERNMENT STILL SUBSIDIZES the airline business. This last point absolutely KILLS our negotiating position whatsoever. Management knows they can always allow the taxpayers/creditors to fall on the sword and declare Ch. 11 and wipe their contractual obligations clean (including pilots contracts). Our ONLY leverage HAS NEVER BEEN USED and NEVER WILL BE USED as our "national" union simply will not authorize a nationwide strike (in it's own words: the nuclear option). All of the perks of a "national" union are nice (lower group insurance rates, medical advice, safety analysis, etc), but in terms of negotiating power we are nowhere close to a "national" union.

 

[cale42]

The GOVERNMENT built up the majors to what they are today. They initially funded them through their early stages as mail carriers. They approved the who got what routes through an old buddy network that continued into the modern 70's CAB with the mechanism of simply increasing ticket prices to cover the ever increasing variable costs. This is the airline pilots fundamental problem: THERE HAS NEVER BEEN FREE MARKET COMPETITION IN THIS BUSINESS PERIOD.

All of our wages are based back to government subsidies. Through anti-trust and bankruptcy protection the GOVERNMENT STILL SUBSIDIZES the airline business. This last point absolutely KILLS our negotiating position whatsoever. Management knows they can always allow the taxpayers/creditors to fall on the sword and declare Ch. 11 and wipe their contractual obligations clean (including pilots contracts). Our ONLY leverage HAS NEVER BEEN USED and NEVER WILL BE USED as our "national" union simply will not authorize a nationwide strike (in it's own words: the nuclear option). All of the perks of a "national" union are nice (lower group insurance rates, medical advice, safety analysis, etc), but in terms of negotiating power we are nowhere close to a "national" union.

And there never will be true free market competition in this business. As long as the guvmint regulates who can fly the planes who can wrench on the planes and what the safety standards are it isn't a free market. I would argue that the airlines are in fact the most regulated industry out there. The guvmint lays down everything about how the business must work except pricing. In that lies the sticking point. Just regulate the pricing and be done with it.

 

[flyboyzii]

lol my regional is better than your regional syndrome eh? Lol Who would have thought a regional pilot would be bangin on another regional pilot? Lol This is amusing. YOU are no better than any of the other regional pilots. The reason YOU have a job flying your little jet is because the mainline pilot groups didn't have the balls to hold onto scope. Oh, and because of their selfish demands. YOU are flying a regional jet because management does not want to pay a good wage to a mainline guy. YOU are just as much the problem in this industry as any other regional pilot. YOU sir, and the other message board posters that attack other regionals, don't realize what you are talking about.

Perfect explanation......end of story..Great Post

 

[WSurf]

lol my regional is better than your regional syndrome eh? Lol Who would have thought a regional pilot would be bangin on another regional pilot? Lol This is amusing. YOU are no better than any of the other regional pilots. The reason YOU have a job flying your little jet is because the mainline pilot groups didn't have the balls to hold onto scope. Oh, and because of their selfish demands. YOU are flying a regional jet because management does not want to pay a good wage to a mainline guy. YOU are just as much the problem in this industry as any other regional pilot. YOU sir, and the other message board posters that attack other regionals, don't realize what you are talking about.

ehhhhhhh???? Man I wish I flew a EMB170 instead of My dash 8! Hmmmm, would that be a paycut for me?

 

[Whydoitry]

ehhhhhhh???? Man I wish I flew a EMB170 instead of My dash 8! Hmmmm, would that be a paycut for me?

Probably.

 

[rogerwilcoout]

ehhhhhhh???? Man I wish I flew a EMB170 instead of My dash 8! Hmmmm, would that be a paycut for me?

This is EXACTLY my point. You think you are being paid well. Management wants you to think that. Truth is the reason you are flying them is because YOU are willing to fly that dash at a much lower cost than an mainline guy would. AND to top it off you, somehow, think that because you are getting paid a certain amount that anyone not making as much as you is somehow lowering the bar. Maybe your regional airline is better than mine, maybe not. But, really, who are you fooling? Management smiles in the mirror shaving because they have you telling the tale of how much better you have it versus another regional, all the while, you are making peanuts in comparison to what every pilot should make. Really, though, if you don't understand this by now, you never will.

 

[CitationLover]

This is EXACTLY my point. You think you are being paid well. Management wants you to think that. Truth is the reason you are flying them is because YOU are willing to fly that dash at a much lower cost than an mainline guy would. AND to top it off you, somehow, think that because you are getting paid a certain amount that anyone not making as much as you is somehow lowering the bar. Maybe your regional airline is better than mine, maybe not. But, really, who are you fooling? Management smiles in the mirror shaving because they have you telling the tale of how much better you have it versus another regional, all the while, you are making peanuts in comparison to what every pilot should make. Really, though, if you don't understand this by now, you never will.

The difference is you're speaking in hypotheticals versus what the RAH group just DID IN REAL LIFE (ie 50% DROP in rates taking flying from a mainline group).

 

[kf4amu]

This is EXACTLY my point. You think you are being paid well.

Where the hell did he say that? Nowhere. He'd say the exact opposite, which makes his point even more valid...that you have idiots flying large aircraft for less money than other pilots flying aircraft 1/3 the size!

If you're making crap money flying a 37 seater, and someone makes crappier money flying a 100 seater, I think it's ok to point that out.