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regional vs. fractional?
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Although my experience is limited to corporate and a little major airline time, I personally would prefer regional flying over fractional for several reasons.
First and formost is the pay issue at the Fracs. Recently I spoke with a NetJets Citation X captain (who was also a check airman) that had 18 months senority and he was only making 35k/year. I was embarrassed for him! I understand they're negotiating a contract to increase pay, but how will that affect the bottom line if all the pilot salaries are brought up to an industry average. Corporate X captains make 90-100k. Will they (company) lose more money and begin to cut back? I'll admit I don't have the same numbers for a jet captain at the regional that I was familiar with (COEX) but I'd bet it was more than 35k. I do know that a five year CA was at 70k.
Also, the type of airports you fly into with a regional are most likely going to be controlled, as opposed to maybe a high percentage of uncontrolled airports with the fracs. Uncontrolled airports usually mean non-precision approaches and short runways. Therefore, more room for error.
Lastly, the regionals have flight attendants on every flight that can deal with the pax. From my experience dealing with pax is an additional duty that many pilots would prefer not to have.
That said, it appears that pilots are going to be a dime-a-dozen again, so any flying job is a good flying job!
First and formost is the pay issue at the Fracs. Recently I spoke with a NetJets Citation X captain (who was also a check airman) that had 18 months senority and he was only making 35k/year. I was embarrassed for him! I understand they're negotiating a contract to increase pay, but how will that affect the bottom line if all the pilot salaries are brought up to an industry average. Corporate X captains make 90-100k. Will they (company) lose more money and begin to cut back? I'll admit I don't have the same numbers for a jet captain at the regional that I was familiar with (COEX) but I'd bet it was more than 35k. I do know that a five year CA was at 70k.
Also, the type of airports you fly into with a regional are most likely going to be controlled, as opposed to maybe a high percentage of uncontrolled airports with the fracs. Uncontrolled airports usually mean non-precision approaches and short runways. Therefore, more room for error.
Lastly, the regionals have flight attendants on every flight that can deal with the pax. From my experience dealing with pax is an additional duty that many pilots would prefer not to have.
That said, it appears that pilots are going to be a dime-a-dozen again, so any flying job is a good flying job!
NJA Capt
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- 462
kl7741 said:
With respect to your opinion, keep a few things in perspective.
1. When our contract (pay) was ratified four years ago, we did not have C750s or DA2000s.
2. The pilot you referred would be on the 2nd year captains
pay scale which I know is above 40K. Not including per diem over time and tips etc.
3. Not many Regional pilots and NO Major pilots are Captain within 6 months.
4. Comair’s new contract I believe starts at 21K. THAT is embarrassing.
5. In comparison to your COEX 5 year Capt at 70K, I am at that level at NJA and am fairly close to that. (Even at our old pay scale.) Not including perdiem and tips etc.
I would say the majority of the time we operate out of controlled fields too. I didn’t go to any uncontrolled airports in my last 7 day tour. (ICT, ASE, SDL, DAL, MDW, SFO, HPN, SLC.....)
Our Gulfstreams, Falcons, and Boeings do have Flight Attendants.
Although the rest of the fleets do not, what is there to deal with? Usually two or three pax, we greet them and brief them on the flight arrangements and off we go. It’s not like we don an apron and push a service cart down the isle.
From the plethora of former commuter, furloughed major, and military SAM pilots on our roster, the frac life is unanimously better. The pay is behind for now, but the quality of life is untouchable. [Unless you could do this and be home every night
]I continue to meet more and more pilots using the commuters as a stepping stone to NetJets. I talked to three more this week.
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
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I see up at the top of this thread that it was started on August 11th. I'm curious why this question might have been asked, in terms of industry activity over the past several months.
I'm thinking about Allegheny, CC Air, and Eagle. I'm thinking about J4J, low pay, and the stalled hiring at the majors, supposedly the top of this food chain.
Then, I'm thinking about the unabated hiring at NetJets, the happy employees, an upcoming new contract that will almost without a doubt raise wages, the aircraft on order, and the commitment to service the all important business customer.
So, I sort of see this question as a no-brainer. Would I rather be a new hire FO in an Excell, making captain's pay, or would I rather drive over to the ALG office (about five miles) and get in line behing several dozen guys who may or may not ever see that job again?
Not to be insulting to the guy that started this post, but is there a reason to mull over the choice between a fractional and a regional?
I'm thinking about Allegheny, CC Air, and Eagle. I'm thinking about J4J, low pay, and the stalled hiring at the majors, supposedly the top of this food chain.
Then, I'm thinking about the unabated hiring at NetJets, the happy employees, an upcoming new contract that will almost without a doubt raise wages, the aircraft on order, and the commitment to service the all important business customer.
So, I sort of see this question as a no-brainer. Would I rather be a new hire FO in an Excell, making captain's pay, or would I rather drive over to the ALG office (about five miles) and get in line behing several dozen guys who may or may not ever see that job again?
Not to be insulting to the guy that started this post, but is there a reason to mull over the choice between a fractional and a regional?
Regionals vs. Fractionals is Pilots vs. Something not Defined Yet(not 91 and not 135). At Regionals you are a 121 pilot. Such as Majors but to a smaller scale. The life quality is better and once you are upgraded money is better and schedule is better. AND THE MOST IMPORTANT YOU ARE A PILOT.
At fractionals(with all due respect toward NJA Capt - I see that he is the person in charge with NJA's Official Propaganda Bureau) the schedule is impossible, the money is......what money??? I don't remember to see any money working there. They treat you like a servant in the sky where that semi rich b@#$^ds can wash the floors with you. If you are serviable enough maybe you get a tip. Netjet's policy is to do not accept tips but in the same time NetJets's policy is to do not refuse the customer(go figure). I am a driver but not that kind of driver. I like to be respected for my profession, I don't like to get tipped, I don't like to kiss a@#$s.
I don't know how in the world NJA is doing good right now but something is smelly overthere? Maybe because they do 135 business under 91 rules??? I worked for EJA one year and I remember only a hand full of furtnukers to be happy there(that was before 09/11....now maybe is different. A job is a job). The general policy was if you want to keep your job you have to say that EJA is the best in the world, EJA is your mother and father, and if you had some critics better checked twice who you were talking to. Pay scale it looks the same. They are in discussions for more than 1 year by now. And I bet it will stay the same because NJA buys more planes, hires more pilots, more pilots on the street with no jobs SO NO MORE MONEY FOR PAY INCREASES.
How comes " the best fractionals in the world" are paid the less.
FO does a good jobs and you don't see them on this board so much. That means they mind their own business.
FlexJet pays a little better but the majority look unhappy with their management.
So my 2 cents opinion is that if I have to go back in time I will take regionals over fractionals.
At fractionals(with all due respect toward NJA Capt - I see that he is the person in charge with NJA's Official Propaganda Bureau) the schedule is impossible, the money is......what money??? I don't remember to see any money working there. They treat you like a servant in the sky where that semi rich b@#$^ds can wash the floors with you. If you are serviable enough maybe you get a tip. Netjet's policy is to do not accept tips but in the same time NetJets's policy is to do not refuse the customer(go figure). I am a driver but not that kind of driver. I like to be respected for my profession, I don't like to get tipped, I don't like to kiss a@#$s.
I don't know how in the world NJA is doing good right now but something is smelly overthere? Maybe because they do 135 business under 91 rules??? I worked for EJA one year and I remember only a hand full of furtnukers to be happy there(that was before 09/11....now maybe is different. A job is a job). The general policy was if you want to keep your job you have to say that EJA is the best in the world, EJA is your mother and father, and if you had some critics better checked twice who you were talking to. Pay scale it looks the same. They are in discussions for more than 1 year by now. And I bet it will stay the same because NJA buys more planes, hires more pilots, more pilots on the street with no jobs SO NO MORE MONEY FOR PAY INCREASES.
How comes " the best fractionals in the world" are paid the less.
FO does a good jobs and you don't see them on this board so much. That means they mind their own business.
FlexJet pays a little better but the majority look unhappy with their management.
So my 2 cents opinion is that if I have to go back in time I will take regionals over fractionals.
Sounds like you might be a little bitter about something. Did you make it past your probabtion?? I wonder???
Yea, your right, it sucks here at NJA, (NOT!!). Tell all your buds to quit sending resumes by the thousands!! Now that the truth is out, maybe our training department can finally catch up. LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gump
Yea, your right, it sucks here at NJA, (NOT!!). Tell all your buds to quit sending resumes by the thousands!! Now that the truth is out, maybe our training department can finally catch up. LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gump
Dear Gump 88 I did pass the probation and when I was able to get out without paying for the training I resigned. It was before 9/11 when NJA was looking for pilots(without much success) everywhere. I don't remember how I got in. Best guest is that I was very depressed when I signed for NJA. During that time many retirees from airlines (they were not looking for the money) or people in distress like myself were coming to EJA. Otherwise how can you explain somebody to go for 27K when all fractionals were paying min 32K with better benefits. It was part in our job description to hunt pilots through all the FBOs. Now after 9/11 when the industry is the way is, when no jobs available, it makes sense for people to accept any job. Majority will take even less money than EJA pays. That explain the ton of resumees. So if I were you I wouldn't be so happy about this large number of resumees because EJA will never have a pay increase. Nothing for 1 year and a half anyway since the contract was up. But the most important factor to determine me in finding other venues was the brainwash policies. That I couldn't take it. So knowing the mental stress you had to go through, please allow me to say that you guys are the best. Keep it that way. EJA ALL THE WAY.
Majik
Well-known member
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Schaevola,
I don't think you could poor urine out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel. I find it impossible to believe that you used to work for NetJets. I have to read each of your poorly written sentences several times to try and understand what you are saying. I think you probably failed a pee test. Matter of fact, I think you are stoned right now. Read your post again. Here are some of the tidbits you posted:
It was part of your job description with EJA to hunt down pilots in FBOs??? You must have been on that double secret recruitment team!
The way you got hired by NJA was because you were so depressed/distressed??? Yeah, depression is one of the 1st things an interviewer looks for in a prospective new hire.
EJA (NJA) will NEVER have a pay increase??? Look me up in one year and I'll bet you will beg me to kick you in the butt for leaving...
NJA has brainwash policies that caused you mental stress??? Something caused you mental stress but I don't think it had anything to do with NJA or its policies...
What type of dream job did you land after you "resigned" from NetJets? I hope it's not a commercial carrier. If so, do me a favor and name the company so that I can avoid traveling with them.
Schaevola, I read your post but "professional" was not quite the impression I walked away with.
I don't think you could poor urine out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel. I find it impossible to believe that you used to work for NetJets. I have to read each of your poorly written sentences several times to try and understand what you are saying. I think you probably failed a pee test. Matter of fact, I think you are stoned right now. Read your post again. Here are some of the tidbits you posted:
It was part of your job description with EJA to hunt down pilots in FBOs??? You must have been on that double secret recruitment team!
The way you got hired by NJA was because you were so depressed/distressed??? Yeah, depression is one of the 1st things an interviewer looks for in a prospective new hire.
EJA (NJA) will NEVER have a pay increase??? Look me up in one year and I'll bet you will beg me to kick you in the butt for leaving...
NJA has brainwash policies that caused you mental stress??? Something caused you mental stress but I don't think it had anything to do with NJA or its policies...
What type of dream job did you land after you "resigned" from NetJets? I hope it's not a commercial carrier. If so, do me a favor and name the company so that I can avoid traveling with them.
Schaevola, I read your post but "professional" was not quite the impression I walked away with.
Diesel
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- 4,394
schaevola- You didn't happen to work for another frac do you? Not a dig at other fracs but i met an ex-eja(nja) guy on the road who was just as bitter as you.
I asked him why he left and he really went off about the company screwing him.
so i looked into it. Like a pancake a story has two sides.
the "problem" washe got fired because he was cheating on his expense reports and granny caught him. He would get the hotel taken off his bill but still turn in the expense report with the hotel on it.
Sure NJA has it's problems. But we are working to rectify those problems yet every day is a fun day. I really enjoy what I do here as i'm sure people in other fracs enjoy what they do.
So you left without having to pay your contract. That means you were terminated. Plain an simple.
Good luck with your bitter atttitude.
I asked him why he left and he really went off about the company screwing him.
so i looked into it. Like a pancake a story has two sides.
the "problem" washe got fired because he was cheating on his expense reports and granny caught him. He would get the hotel taken off his bill but still turn in the expense report with the hotel on it.
Sure NJA has it's problems. But we are working to rectify those problems yet every day is a fun day. I really enjoy what I do here as i'm sure people in other fracs enjoy what they do.
So you left without having to pay your contract. That means you were terminated. Plain an simple.
Good luck with your bitter atttitude.
To no one in particular,
I have been at NJA (EJA) 6 years , and simply put ,it is a job.
o I like it ? Yes.
:Am I staying ? Yes.
o I feel like a loser? No.
The company treats me well. The contract is under negotiation.
The airplanes are new,and there is no daily hub and spoke work.
Suits me.
Too describe the perfect job.
:Give me and airplane all exspenses paid . Fly it anywhere I want with friends and family on board.
That would be fun,and fun is not spelled JOB.
I have been at NJA (EJA) 6 years , and simply put ,it is a job.
o I like it ? Yes.:Am I staying ? Yes.
o I feel like a loser? No.The company treats me well. The contract is under negotiation.
The airplanes are new,and there is no daily hub and spoke work.
Suits me.
Too describe the perfect job.
:Give me and airplane all exspenses paid . Fly it anywhere I want with friends and family on board.
That would be fun,and fun is not spelled JOB.
Schavola,
Man, you just crack me up.....In both site where NJA is discussed, you refer to Part 121 aviators as "pilots".......The obvious implication is that those of us at NJA are not "real" pilots.......
WOW! I guess that ATP in my pocket with the three type ratings must just be a joke......
The money and schedule at the regionals is better than here at NJA? So, I assume that you were a regional pilot before this and know all about it, huh? No? Well, I was and the quality of life here is significantly better than whatI experienced at the regional that I was at......
Me thinks you had a bit of an attitude problem at NJA.....That must be what you're talking about when you project back on the company as "propaganda"........I guess you can't take a square peg and put it into a round hole......
Actually, I feel kinda sorry for you. You didn't fit in and got booted as a result.......They let people out of the training contract that they don't want on the property. Frankly, I would suggest that you take a good long look in the mirror and own up to your own insecurities and work on yourself before venturing out again. You've got some issues to work through to make it out here or anywhere else......
Best wishes......
Man, you just crack me up.....In both site where NJA is discussed, you refer to Part 121 aviators as "pilots".......The obvious implication is that those of us at NJA are not "real" pilots.......
WOW! I guess that ATP in my pocket with the three type ratings must just be a joke......
The money and schedule at the regionals is better than here at NJA? So, I assume that you were a regional pilot before this and know all about it, huh? No? Well, I was and the quality of life here is significantly better than whatI experienced at the regional that I was at......
Me thinks you had a bit of an attitude problem at NJA.....That must be what you're talking about when you project back on the company as "propaganda"........I guess you can't take a square peg and put it into a round hole......
Actually, I feel kinda sorry for you. You didn't fit in and got booted as a result.......They let people out of the training contract that they don't want on the property. Frankly, I would suggest that you take a good long look in the mirror and own up to your own insecurities and work on yourself before venturing out again. You've got some issues to work through to make it out here or anywhere else......
Best wishes......
CCDiscoB
Well-known member
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- Mar 15, 2002
- Posts
- 779
Time of your life??
Hey Gump88,
I have a question about the FRAC business. A lot has been said about the intense schedules flying FRACs. You said you were on a 6 day trip and “had the time of your life.” I’m assuming you’re exaggerating slightly, or you are not on the work 14 / off 10 hour schedule. I’m curious as to what you consider the time of your life. Because if it’s anything like I would imagine, then I’m walking into NetJets’ office and sitting there until I get an interview.
Hey Gump88,
I have a question about the FRAC business. A lot has been said about the intense schedules flying FRACs. You said you were on a 6 day trip and “had the time of your life.” I’m assuming you’re exaggerating slightly, or you are not on the work 14 / off 10 hour schedule. I’m curious as to what you consider the time of your life. Because if it’s anything like I would imagine, then I’m walking into NetJets’ office and sitting there until I get an interview.
CC,
This past tour did not involve working 14/10 schedules. In fact, the average for the week was 10 hour days, 13.5 hours rest, 3 legs per day, and 17.4 hours flying total.
I had the best Mexican Food I have ever tasted in Sante Fe, NM. Listened to the Coyottes howl at the moon on the back deck of my 300 dollar per night hotel, and shot a beautiful visual approach into Eagle, CO. Please forgive my enthusiasm, but I am just a country boy from NC who is very happy to be at NETJETS. This is my 4th job in this buisness and to say it is the best would be a gross understatement!
Someone pass the kool-aid!
gump
This past tour did not involve working 14/10 schedules. In fact, the average for the week was 10 hour days, 13.5 hours rest, 3 legs per day, and 17.4 hours flying total.
I had the best Mexican Food I have ever tasted in Sante Fe, NM. Listened to the Coyottes howl at the moon on the back deck of my 300 dollar per night hotel, and shot a beautiful visual approach into Eagle, CO. Please forgive my enthusiasm, but I am just a country boy from NC who is very happy to be at NETJETS. This is my 4th job in this buisness and to say it is the best would be a gross understatement!
Someone pass the kool-aid!
gump
Cardinal
Of The Kremlin
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As stability was the focus of this thread earlier, rather than the relative masculinity of the industry's pilots, there is an excellent article from AvWeek on the subject. I'd gladly fly for NetJets, but there is no sure thing in any business. The days of the 6 month upgrade cannot last forever, it is an abberation, albeit one of considerable duration. http://www.aviationweek.com/shownews/02nbaa/special2.htm
Retirement at NJA is now based on the company throwing in $.50 on the dollar for your 401k up to 15% of your salary.......Now I didn't run the numbers, but some of the ex-Comair guys did and I was told that this beats the "retirement package" plus 401k that they have there now. Whether or not that is accurate, I don't know. And what may be added towards our retirement with this next contract is anyone's guess, but I'm sure that anything will put us above what we would have received at Comair from what I understand.
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