Real Men of Genius....The ASA MEC

[BOX OFFICE]

And then OO pilots pulled that jumpseat letter threat... So... you call me out for chiding OO pilots yet its ok for those guys to use the jumpseat as political weapon...

Um, you may not "approve" of the tactic, but (correct me if I'm wrong) did it not get results? Very quickly?

I think you're just jealous that ALPA National lacks the nerve to pull something like that off. Don't be a hater, Rez. It's ok.

Keep beating your head against the wall, Rez. Sooner or later, one of two things will happen: you'll pass out, or it will stop hurting.

I think I speak for everyone but your wingman PCL when I say we hope it's the former.

 

[Flybywire44]

I'm surprised no one said this sooner...

http://l1011.homestead.com/discountpilot.html

 

[PCL_128]

Um, you may not "approve" of the tactic, but (correct me if I'm wrong) did it not get results? Very quickly?

Actually, NO, that's not what got results. The UAL MEC was hunkered down and preparing for a complete all-out jumpseat war. It was an ALPA volunteer at a non-UAL Express regional that suggested this fix to head off the war before it got out of hand. Your tactics didn't fix anything. The simple suggestion of an ALPA volunteer is what fixed it. If the jumpseat jihadists that started that ridiculous letter would have worked things through the system in the first place, then it never would have gotten to that point.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Actually, NO, that's not what got results. The UAL MEC was hunkered down and preparing for a complete all-out jumpseat war. It was an ALPA volunteer at a non-UAL Express regional that suggested this fix to head off the war before it got out of hand. Your tactics didn't fix anything. The simple suggestion of an ALPA volunteer is what fixed it. If the jumpseat jihadists that started that ridiculous letter would have worked things through the system in the first place, then it never would have gotten to that point.

I could have counted to three for that one.

PCL, you are just foaming at the mouth, bud. Hate on, hate on.

You couldn't be more wrong. If the UAX carriers hadn't pulled that little coup, the UAL MEC never would have even raised the issue. The status quo favored them. Duh! The threat of a jumpseat war brought everyone to the table, which they wouldn't have done otherwise. Sometimes the nuclear option works. Sorry you ALPA cheerleaders hate that you got beat at your own game.

And to further prove how far off the reservation you are, it wasn't "my tactics", another conclusion you erroneously jumped to. I do not work for a UAX carrier. I don't even work for a regional. I have no dog in the fight except to be embarrassed as an ALPA member that a mainline group was picking on an express group like the schoolyard bully, then cried foul when the little nerd fought back and gave him a black eye. And now all the bully and his friends can do is cry that the nerd didn't fight fair. How embarrassing for all of you.

Now you can take defeat like men or continue to whine about how it was unsportsmanlike. that's your choice. But as had been pointed out many times now, you and your buddy Rez are only turning more people away from ALPA with your threats, innuendo, false logic, name calling, generalizing, and scare tactics.

Keep it up. Who needs Jerry Atkin to put burkas on people when we have you and Rez driving them there willingly? ALPA doesn't stand a chance of making it if you two are the best they have to offer.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If you ask Rez that question he will tell you that UA owns those regional jumpseats and has every bit of authority to use it as they sit fit. Spare yourself.

Wrong again... I don't speak for you nor do you I...

I was involved in the jumpseat threats with when the OO pilots and other regionals used the jumpseat for political purposes... I suggested that if OO wanted total control of their jumpseat then they could use their own software.

I have been always an advocate of PIC authority. In fact at one of my regionals we had quite the definitive language in our CBA that gave captains total authority...

Actually, that's a very good point. I didn't think anyone should have been removed either.

I thought it was wrong of Rez to initially single out OO for the jumpseat letter, when it was all the UAX carriers except for TSA. How convenient to leave that part out. And then to blame the ENTIRE pilot group for it, when, right or wrong, the actions taken were due to the decisions of the jumpseat commitee alone.

But the OO pilots wanted the rewards of the jumpseat ultimatum. If you want the rewards you MUST accept the responsibility...

So don't try and distance yourself from the unprofessional tactics of the jumpseat coordinator....

And if he has a problem with the actions of the jumpseat commitee of OO, then he has a problem with the jumpseat commitees of every UAX carrier (including the union represented ones) except TSA.

As I do.. but we are only talking about OO. You want to bring up the other carriers so you don't look as bad... If we were talking about the jumpseat issue then we would as we did...

Rez seems to display this hatred for the ENTIRE pilot group, including those who have had little to do with the things that he finds so disagreeable. I think he faults us merely for working where we do--that alone is a grevious enough offense.

Again.. you seem to think that you don't belong to a group... you seem to act like independent contractors.. that you don't belong to a profession...

What would you have us do? Rez? Quit and work somewhere that's more "union friendly" in the name of this mythical state called "solidarity?" Sure, I'd be out on the street for a while, but it would all be in the name of "brotherhood" so that makes it ok (just as long as you keep your own job). I mean, I'm not one of those guys that says "screw you, I'm going to get mine," but somewhere along the line, one does need to look after their own interests--my creditors are slightly more convincing.

-Goose

No need to quit. Just join the organization.. or any union, so that you can contribute to the profession

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I could have counted to three for that one.

PCL, you are just foaming at the mouth, bud. Hate on, hate on.

You couldn't be more wrong. If the UAX carriers hadn't pulled that little coup, the UAL MEC never would have even raised the issue. The status quo favored them. Duh! The threat of a jumpseat war brought everyone to the table, which they wouldn't have done otherwise. Sometimes the nuclear option works. Sorry you ALPA cheerleaders hate that you got beat at your own game.

Sounds like Box Office bin Laden!!

And to further prove how far off the reservation you are, it wasn't "my tactics", another conclusion you erroneously jumped to. I do not work for a UAX carrier. I don't even work for a regional. I have no dog in the fight except to be embarrassed as an ALPA member that a mainline group was picking on an express group like the schoolyard bully, then cried foul when the little nerd fought back and gave him a black eye. And now all the bully and his friends can do is cry that the nerd didn't fight fair. How embarrassing for all of you.

Sounds like more terrorist brainwashing...

Did you have an opportunity to talk to a mainline pilot about the issue or did you get all your info from one side?

Now you can take defeat like men or continue to whine about how it was unsportsmanlike. that's your choice. But as had been pointed out many times now, you and your buddy Rez are only turning more people away from ALPA with your threats, innuendo, false logic, name calling, generalizing, and scare tactics.

I recall the Box Office got shut down on another thread... or have you replied?

All I am suggesting is pilots share the load in defending and promoting the profession thru self government and democracy... is that so hard?

Keep it up. Who needs Jerry Atkin to put burkas on people when we have you and Rez driving them there willingly? ALPA doesn't stand a chance of making it if you two are the best they have to offer.

If pilots are driven off from democracy and participation in their careers because of a moniker message board then I don't think they would have anyway...

FI is just an excuse not to anyway...

Its like the pilot that wears a sloppy uniform with the bravado statement "I'll wear the uniform better when they pay me better"... Well first off that negotiation tactic never works and when the union gets a pay raise the sloppy pilot finds another excuse to be sloppy...

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Sounds like Box Office bin Laden!!



Sounds like more terrorist brainwashing...

Did you have an opportunity to talk to a mainline pilot about the issue or did you get all your info from one side?



I recall the Box Office got shut down on another thread... or have you replied?

All I am suggesting is pilots share the load in defending and promoting the profession thru self government and democracy... is that so hard?




If pilots are driven off from democracy and participation in their careers because of a moniker message board then I don't think they would have anyway...

FI is just an excuse not to anyway...

Its like the pilot that wears a sloppy uniform with the bravado statement "I'll wear the uniform better when they pay me better"... Well first off that negotiation tactic never works and when the union gets a pay raise the sloppy pilot finds another excuse to be sloppy...

More personal attacks, labeling, and innuendo. Is that really the best you can do? Oh, that's right, this is what you call "debating". Not even worth a reply.

Loved the crack about whether I talked to any mainline pilots. Guess I'll "try" next time I go to work, ok? See, you know nothing about me, yet you attempt to marginalize me.

You're nothing but a big bully Rez. Keep it up. I don't blame the SkyWest pilots one bit for not wanting to associate with us.

 

[sweptback]

You're nothing but a big bully Rez. Keep it up. I don't blame the SkyWest pilots one bit for not wanting to associate with us.

I could really care less about most comments on here, but this one made me laugh. If the SkyWest pilots based their views on the union drive on a few blowhards on Flightinfo, they deserve whatever they get! Hopefully they did a bit more research than that.

 

[Goose Egg]

I was involved in the jumpseat threats with when the OO pilots and other regionals used the jumpseat for political purposes...

See, here's the thing, Rez: We don't consider having our own pilots have jumpseat priority on our own airplanes a "political purpose." It's about helping our own guys/gals get to work, and nothing more. I mean, I guess you could argue that that is a political purpose, but you seem to think that it is about something deeper. It's not.

But the OO pilots wanted the rewards of the jumpseat ultimatum. If you want the rewards you MUST accept the responsibility...

So don't try and distance yourself from the unprofessional tactics of the jumpseat coordinator....

Ok, you win. I'm glad that the JS coordinators did what they did. It was the only thing that would have worked, at least any time this decade. I mean, I'm not a commuter, so I wasn't super-worried about it, but still, it definitely seemed that UAL was being heavy-handed and unfair.

So, do you demand that I take credit for that good decision and display of intestinal fortitude when I personally had nothing to do with it? Because that's sure what it seems like.

Props to the OO pilot group, myself included!! We sure kicked butt!

... but we are only talking about OO. You want to bring up the other carriers so you don't look as bad... If we were talking about the jumpseat issue then we would as we did...

What do you mean "look bad?" Didn't we just cover this?

Again.. you seem to think that you don't belong to a group... you seem to act like independent contractors.. that you don't belong to a profession...

It may seem that way to you. But just because I'm not spouting the ALPA uber alles dogma, it doesn't mean that I don't care about my fellow pilots, my craft, or my profession, as hard as it may be for you to accept that such a condition exists.

No need to quit. Just join the organization.. or any union, so that you can contribute to the profession

Bring me a union that I can support, and you have my vote. Preferably it should be devoid of hotheads so that it doesn't ruin our relationship with management... again, as hard as that may be for you to understand...

ALPA ain't it.

But I would like the ability to bargain as a group. So far I think SAPA has done an adequate job. Actually the SAPA reps have been doing a great job--I've been impressed. I just wish they were a little more "empowered."

-Goose

 

[BOX OFFICE]

I could really care less about most comments on here, but this one made me laugh. If the SkyWest pilots based their views on the union drive on a few blowhards on Flightinfo, they deserve whatever they get! Hopefully they did a bit more research than that.

You would be amazed.

I've talked t a lot of them, and it seems that in fact, most sat on the sidelines and watched "debates" like this rage. Or at least heard of then through others. This sort of thing soured quite a few SkyWest pilots on the virtues of ALPA. As said above, they really went about it the wrong way.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

More personal attacks, labeling, and innuendo. Is that really the best you can do? Oh, that's right, this is what you call "debating". Not even worth a reply.

You don't get it.... your justification to use the jumpseat ultimatum is a kin to how radicals think. Which is it doesn't matter what means is used just as long as the desired results are obtained...

Get it?

Loved the crack about whether I talked to any mainline pilots. Guess I'll "try" next time I go to work, ok? See, you know nothing about me, yet you attempt to marginalize me.

Once again you don't get it.... How can you be informed on an issue if you haven't gotten information from both sides?

So did you talk to any regional pilots from UAX? Or did you get your data from FI? If so? who? your b/f?

You're nothing but a big bully Rez. Keep it up. I don't blame the SkyWest pilots one bit for not wanting to associate with us.

Look if you can't keep up, then don't... if you notice I reply to your entire post.... quoting each section...

You and many others find the easy points that you can reply to and disregard the difficult debate.. which is too bad, because if you can defend your position and think for yourself you wouldn't have to call me a bully and I might actually learn something from anothers position...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

See, here's the thing, Rez: We don't consider having our own pilots have jumpseat priority on our own airplanes a "political purpose." It's about helping our own guys/gals get to work, and nothing more. I mean, I guess you could argue that that is a political purpose, but you seem to think that it is about something deeper. It's not.

Threatening to ban mainline pilots if UAL management didn't change the apollo code?

Ok, you win. I'm glad that the JS coordinators did what they did. It was the only thing that would have worked, at least any time this decade. I mean, I'm not a commuter, so I wasn't super-worried about it, but still, it definitely seemed that UAL was being heavy-handed and unfair.

So its ok if the UAL pilots use these types of tactics in future for something they want?

So, do you demand that I take credit for that good decision and display of intestinal fortitude when I personally had nothing to do with it? Because that's sure what it seems like.

You just did in your previous quote see above...

You can't gain the benefit or reward without accepting responsibility. This is basic and fundamental...

Props to the OO pilot group, myself included!! We sure kicked butt!

Here you are accepting the reward...

See what I mean... now you've set precedence for the next issue... hopefully the UAL pilots will take the high road and won't resort to such unprofessional tactics..

What do you mean "look bad?" Didn't we just cover this?

OO pilots used unprofessional tactics in this jumpseat issue.... plain and simple... to point at the other carriers that participated doesn't change the fact that OO pilots used unprofessional tactics. Just because there were more culprits doesn't make it just.

It may seem that way to you. But just because I'm not spouting the ALPA uber alles dogma, it doesn't mean that I don't care about my fellow pilots, my craft, or my profession, as hard as it may be for you to accept that such a condition exists.

OK.. but HOW do you care? What do you do to serve and defend the profession? The jumpseat letter is bad blood.... and that is the latest taste you put into fellow pilots (UAL) mouths...

Do you really think OO pilots will jumpseat on UAL and it will be open arms and camaraderie?

Bring me a union that I can support, and you have my vote. Preferably it should be devoid of hotheads so that it doesn't ruin our relationship with management... again, as hard as that may be for you to understand...

You'd elect your own representatives. If you don't want hotheads..don't elect them...

ALPA ain't it.

Obviously. So will you apply to non ALPA carriers? Or are you a OO lifer?

But I would like the ability to bargain as a group. So far I think SAPA has done an adequate job. Actually the SAPA reps have been doing a great job--I've been impressed. I just wish they were a little more "empowered."

-Goose

No comment.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You would be amazed.

I've talked t a lot of them, and it seems that in fact, most sat on the sidelines and watched "debates" like this rage.

They got their data from FI?

Or at least heard of then through others.

from second or even third hand sources?

This sort of thing soured quite a few SkyWest pilots on the virtues of ALPA. As said above, they really went about it the wrong way.

So as Americans they don't know democracy when they see it?

 

[Caspian27]

Again Rez, I submit to you very respectfully that with every word that you post, you make ALPA sound more like a bully and less like a united front of brothers which is what you'd like it to be. When you constantly insult and talk down to a successful pilot group instead of being positive, you reniforce the reputation of ALPA as a heavy-handed, Jimmy Hoffa-type bully.

I'm reasonably sure that we can't even carry on a respectful debate on this forum with your preconceived notions of bitterness and hate towards non-ALPA pilot groups. I just don't see how ALPA has a future at the regional level with attitudes like yours....

Super-tempted to block.....but not yet.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Again Rez, I submit to you very respectfully that with every word that you post, you make ALPA sound more like a bully and less like a united front of brothers which is what you'd like it to be.

my last post to you talked about the jumpseat letter ultimatum from the OO pilots and you call me a bully and question the united front of brothers?

That letter was bullying and divisive...

Why is it you can't objectively look at your own actions?

When you constantly insult and talk down to a successful pilot group instead of being positive, you reniforce the reputation of ALPA as a heavy-handed, Jimmy Hoffa-type bully.

You guys are no more successful than any other group. Don't confuse safely flying jets and business operations. Air Line Pilots Do Not Run Air Lines...


Again with the bullying... where have you been bullied? On FI? A moniker message board? No one is forcing you to read these threads and debate the issues...

I am an individual. I don't represent ALPA in anyway. I am simply offering my opinions.

The OO pilots have bullied with the jumpseat letter. That is clear action that you triumph. I find it insulting, unprofessional, embarrassing and arrogant. But you don't want to talk about that... You just want respect despite OO behavior and choices.

OO pilots cram down UAL pilots throats the jumpseat letter but you expect no pushback.

OO pilots reject ALPA organization but want the rewards and still expect respect...


How do you justify this?

I'm reasonably sure that we can't even carry on a respectful debate on this forum with your preconceived notions of bitterness and hate towards non-ALPA pilot groups. I just don't see how ALPA has a future at the regional level with attitudes like yours....

Super-tempted to block.....but not yet.

Then simply justify that it is acceptable that OO pilots benefit from ALPA's hard work all while not contributing.... I have yet to see an OO pilot do so...

 

[XPOO]

Wrong again... I don't speak for you nor do you I...

I was involved in the jumpseat threats with when the OO pilots and other regionals used the jumpseat for political purposes... I suggested that if OO wanted total control of their jumpseat then they could use their own software.

Really, Rez, you never said this:

In addition, what obligation or binding agreement does UAL or U-ALPA have to allow OO pilots priority on OO aircraft.

Of course it makes common sense that OO pilots have j/s priority on their own airplane, but since Skywest has tied its dingy to the UAL monolith, it does come with certain conditions. ie Skywest serves UAL. OO flies where UAL says, when, what to put into its cargo bins, etc...

 

[Freeze]

Just looking at the writing style--Boxoffice=Ifly4Food

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Really, Rez, you never said this:

and what is the point you are trying to make?

My point is that by being a vendor to UAL and not having your own reservation system (apollo) that its quite possible and it is what happened... the jumpseat debacle... that is what happens when a regional feeds a major... problems and issues can come up...

I never said OOpilots should not have priority on their own metal.... I was simply stating that being a feeder can result in problems. The point is the OO pilots did not want to understand this and work the issue with UAL management. Instead they wanted to use threats/ultimatums with the UAL pilots.

so whats your point?

 

[XPOO]

My point is, according to you, some mainline union should be determining the boarding priority of another airline's jumpseat.

In addition, what obligation or binding agreement does UAL or U-ALPA have to allow OO pilots priority on OO aircraft

 

[CFIT]

and what is the point you are trying to make?

My point is that by being a vendor to UAL and not having your own reservation system (apollo) that its quite possible and it is what happened... the jumpseat debacle... that is what happens when a regional feeds a major... problems and issues can come up...

I never said OOpilots should not have priority on their own metal.... I was simply stating that being a feeder can result in problems. The point is the OO pilots did not want to understand this and work the issue with UAL management. Instead they wanted to use threats/ultimatums with the UAL pilots.

so whats your point?

First of all is was never UAL management, it was the UAL MEC that wanted priority over everybody on UAX flights. I was a rep when this was first requested and it was unconditionally denied.

Guess what? Somehow the code was changed and it just mysteriouslly happened to be that situation where UAL pilots got priority.

Our JSC asked over 2 years ago to change it back, at first the UAL MEC denied it was really happening. THEN they admitted it and said it was just test software. Then they said it would be too costly to remove. They dragged their feet because it was a benefit to them.

Well push came to shove, and most of the UAX carriers collaborated, without the mighty ALPA, and got the issue fixed in the matter of about 2 weeks.


But Rez, if we didn't go through ALPA, does that mean we're un-American, or not democratic, or just terrorists?

Remember as a voluteer cheerleader your answer must in the form of a question.....