Real Men of Genius....The ASA MEC

[CFI2766]

JM wrote:

Fins...I am talking about a single list at Skywest Inc.....We have a better shot without ALPA....ALPA doesn't want a representational vote for the combined list...They are afraid they will lose....and they are probably right.....

ALPA doesn't want to lose the ASA pilots.....

I believe an in house group could work with Jerry to achieve it....

Sincere question (not flame): How/What would the new representative organization that you are proposing to create do better than the current representation from ALPA? What would the return be to the pilot group from their required investment of time, dues, and assessments to get this new organization to V1?


Personally, I think that a single list with SkyW and ASA is clearly in the long term best interests of both of the pilot groups. Also, frankly, I don't care what amalgamation of letters is printed on the letterhead, as long as my concerns as a regional pilot are at the very least considered, and not outright subordinated to the desires of the senior pilots at a 'Legacy' airline, or worse, the profit motives of the managerial suite in Utah.


All that being said, I believe that it would be extremely difficult to convince myself and the existing pilot groups that another option than ALPA will be better for our long term best-interests. ALPA is far from perfect (partly is own fault, and mostly the fault of the RLA), but it is the best option available.


I would characterize myself as having a pragmatic, but open mind to what you might have to say on this.

 

[JoeMerchant]

JM wrote:




Sincere question (not flame): How/What would the new representative organization that you are proposing to create do better than the current representation from ALPA? What would the return be to the pilot group from their required investment of time, dues, and assessments to get this new organization to V1?


Personally, I think that a single list with SkyW and ASA is clearly in the long term best interests of both of the pilot groups. Also, frankly, I don't care what amalgamation of letters is printed on the letterhead, as long as my concerns as a regional pilot are at the very least considered, and not outright subordinated to the desires of the senior pilots at a 'Legacy' airline, or worse, the profit motives of the managerial suite in Utah.


All that being said, I believe that it would be extremely difficult to convince myself and the existing pilot groups that another option than ALPA will be better for our long term best-interests. ALPA is far from perfect (partly is own fault, and mostly the fault of the RLA), but it is the best option available.


I would characterize myself as having a pragmatic, but open mind to what you might have to say on this.

Glen,

Good questions.....Here is my opinion on the matter....Speedtape and Rez will probably disagree....

Negotiating a single list is possible...it was done with Mesa/Freedom, CHQ/Republic, and Wings West/Simmons/Flagship/Executive.....The certificates can be and should be left separate....

The problem right now is that I believe ALPA doesn't really want to pursue this option here because they are afraid they will lose more members....and here is why they are worried about this...

If a single list is negotiated, it would require a new representational election for the new combined ASA/Skywest pilot group....In other words, we would all have to decide who we want to represent us.....That is required by the RLA....The Skywest pilots have already decided by a large margin that ALPA isn't right for them....I suspect a fairly large ASA group would join the Skywest pilots and vote for someone other than ALPA.....

ALPA cannot afford to lose more pilots right now....They are about to lose the Atlas/Polar group and they may lose a few other groups do to the current downturn.....Astar/Gemani/Medex/etc....

In addition to this "macro" issue involving ALPA national, we also have some at the local level that probably wouldn't be willing to "buy" the single list....It won't come for free.....It's the old short term pain for long term gain argument....Many pilots only understand the value of current section 3 rates....and not the value of section 1 which directly impacts section 3 later on down the road.....

JMO....others will disagree.....in 3....2.....1......

 

[~~~^~~~]

(1) Fins...I am talking about a single list at Skywest Inc.....We have a better shot without ALPA....

I believe an in house group could work with Jerry to achieve it....

(2) Your tune has changed.....you now advocate adding the Compass pilots to your list.....but not the CMR or Mesaba pilots.....Compass was an ALPA created alter-ego and you know it....There are many fine ALPA members at CMR and Mesaba...but apparantly they are good enough?

There isn't going to be "onelist" with each brand...That ship sailed long ago while the egomaniacs fiddled....I want onelist at Skywest and I want to grow my company....I don't want any restrictions from my union on my company......

(3) Just curious, what ideas of mine has ALPA leadership has claimed as their own? I wish you were right...but I don't see it....

(1) Jerry has the power to merge the Companies, which would likely result in decertification any time he wants to. The fact he has not should tell you something. SkyWest and the SkyWest pilots benefit too much from ASA's subsidiary position to want a change to the status quo.

One problem would be seniority integration. The SkyWest pilots do not want to give up the windfall they obtained at your expense. As United implodes and Delta expands on the West Coast, the SkyWest pilots may again be in the cat bird seat as Delta seeks to realign its regional feed regionally.

(2) Save your insults. My position on one list has not changed. To make real progress you have to start with what is reasonably attainable. Compass is an unique opportunity that just does not exist at the other regional carriers because of:

• Bilateral flow agreement*
• Low relative longevity*
• Concurrent seniority*
• Single Representational Structure*
• Training Agreements
• Growing to directly replace mainline DC9 flying
• Politically attractive equipment
• * avoids pretentions of better than staple SLI
• * avoid mainline fear of better than staple SLI

It is precisely because it is an ALPA alter ego that it needs to be fixed with one list. It makes sense to repair what you most recently broke - before it gets worse.

I'd like to see the other DCI carriers on board too, but those carriers present many more complicated issues than the majority of ALPA's members care to confront. The SLI issue is much easier at Compass and that is the issue which was the deal breaker because it was not dealt with up front in 1999... and before you start on the technical arguement, I cite the example of the Delta/NWA SLI where even they are trying to resolve the issue by every means possible BEFORE falling back to a PID. That is the power of political reality.

As is, there is more support for using MEC funds to throw a wedding reception for Michelle Burns and her life partner than trying to tie the knot with Compass. I'm peeing up a rope and hoping for the principle of absorbtion to overcome gravity.

(3) Dropping the A plan retirement demand and scope that binds the parent company are a few of the ideas that you promoted.

~~~^~~~

 

[CFI2766]

(1) Jerry has the power to merge the Companies, which would likely result in decertification any time he wants to. The fact he has not should tell you something. SkyWest and the SkyWest pilots benefit too much from ASA's subsidiary position to want a change to the status quo.

Yes, the fact that Jerry has shown no desire to consolidate the two companies to realize obvious 'synergies' is quite disconcerting from the point of view of an ASA employee. Additionally, couple this with the payroll expense savings that SKYW would likely realize with the possibility of removing ALPA and putting the suprefluous SKYW 'student council' at the helm of the pilot group to create a reasonable expectation that Jerry has something else in mind for ASA than our long term health as a going concern.

Our subsidiary position seems to be more of a subordinate, second in line, hind-t!t sucking, red-headed stepchild. The eventual coming of a recovery of the airline business and the attendant redistribution of resources (new aircraft and hiring) will clearly identify what ASA's value to SkyWest, and Delta, will be. Growth for ASA, over the inevitable loud objections of the entrenched, though relatively junior SKYW pilots, would be a very good sign for ASA. Ignoring ASA, despite recent, sustained, dramatic improvements in the quality of our operation, would evaporate the goodwill amongst the pilot group that is the backbone of the current turnaround at ASA.

...problem would be seniority integration. The SkyWest pilots do not want to give up the windfall they obtained at your expense. As United implodes and Delta expands on the West Coast, the SkyWest pilots may again be in the cat bird seat as Delta seeks to realign its regional feed regionally.

It wouldn't be a problem for the ASA guys/gals: We are relatively more senior than the SKYW folks.
-flippant sarcasm-

Seriously, A combination of the two lists would benefit the ASA pilot group initially, and in time benefit the SKYW group with more stability and truly collectively bargained improvements to their working agreements. It would be extremely difficult, though, to create a situation where the average SKYW pilot, with upgrade expectations that are different than just about anyone else in the industry, could feel like a combination would be a net positive.




(2) Save your insults. My position on one list has not changed. To make real progress you have to start with what is reasonably attainable. Compass is an unique opportunity that just does not exist at the other regional carriers because of:

• Bilateral flow agreement*
• Low relative longevity*
• Concurrent seniority*
• Single Representational Structure*
• Training Agreements
• Growing to directly replace mainline DC9 flying
• Politically attractive equipment
• * avoids pretentions of better than staple SLI
• * avoid mainline fear of better than staple SLI

It is precisely because it is an ALPA alter ego that it needs to be fixed with one list. It makes sense to repair what you most recently broke - before it gets worse.

I'd like to see the other DCI carriers on board too, but those carriers present many more complicated issues than the majority of ALPA's members care to confront. The SLI issue is much easier at Compass and that is the issue which was the deal breaker because it was not dealt with up front in 1999... and before you start on the technical arguement, I cite the example of the Delta/NWA SLI where even they are trying to resolve the issue by every means possible BEFORE falling back to a PID. That is the power of political reality.

As is, there is more support for using MEC funds to throw a wedding reception for Michelle Burns and her life partner than trying to tie the knot with Compass. I'm peeing up a rope and hoping for the principle of absorbtion to overcome gravity.

(3) Dropping the A plan retirement demand and scope that binds the parent company are a few of the ideas that you promoted.

~~~^~~~

Fins, I always learn something from your posts.

 

[PCL_128]

The 401k issue was incredibly stupid...It pushed many people over the edge.....

On this, we agree. This is just another in a long line of Prater blunders. But, Rez and I warned everyone two years ago that Prater wasn't qualified for the job, and everyone still demanded Duane's head on a stick. I submit that had Duane been reelected: 1) Age 60 would still be the law of the land, 2) The AAA pilots would still be ALPA members, and 3) There wouldn't be any back-door dues increase. Everyone wanted "anybody but Duane," and you got him. He's incompetent and inexperienced, and he's raising your dues and bankrupting your union, but you got him.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins, I always learn something from your posts.

Thanks, there isn't a day that goes by that I don't learn something from someone else too.

 

[rightseatjocky]

Omg !!!
I Have To Say....
Mesa Sucks!!!!!
:uzi:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You said the kids don't care....they just want mom and dad to have a job so they can eat....ALPA can't deliver that promise......ALPA pilots are currently replacing other ALPA pilots....What other union allows union members to replace other union "brothers".....

Why do you expect ALPA to be a total efficient machine of free market barriers and protectionism in a hyperconsumption race to the bottom economy that has gone global?

 

[CFIT]

On this, we agree. This is just another in a long line of Prater blunders. But, Rez and I warned everyone two years ago that Prater wasn't qualified for the job, and everyone still demanded Duane's head on a stick. I submit that had Duane been reelected: 1) Age 60 would still be the law of the land, 2) The AAA pilots would still be ALPA members, and 3) There wouldn't be any back-door dues increase. Everyone wanted "anybody but Duane," and you got him. He's incompetent and inexperienced, and he's raising your dues and bankrupting your union, but you got him.

Is he also going to get a a pension of a $120,000 a year like the last club president?

Looks like they're going to have to go after more than just your 401K's

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Is he also going to get a a pension of a $120,000 a year like the last club president?

Looks like they're going to have to go after more than just your 401K's

Hey its one of the Burka Boyz....


I didn't get your reply on OO pilots using CREW PASS? Should they use this ALPA won measure? Or shun it like they did ALPA....

Would it be hypocritical?

Will you use it?

 

[Caspian27]

Fins, I always learn something from your posts.

CFI,

You refer to the "relatively junior" SkyWest pilots in your post. I'm just curious what the "relative seniority" is...I regularly fly with 8+ years seniority captains. You should look at the OO Captain lists in SLC, PSP, DEN....I flew with a guy halfway down the DEN list the other day and he's been here over 5 years.

I'm just trying to understand the comparison.

Thanks!

 

[CFI2766]

CFI,

You refer to the "relatively junior" SkyWest pilots in your post. I'm just curious what the "relative seniority" is...I regularly fly with 8+ years seniority captains. You should look at the OO Captain lists in SLC, PSP, DEN....I flew with a guy halfway down the DEN list the other day and he's been here over 5 years.

I'm just trying to understand the comparison.

Thanks!

Good question. I really didn't clarify all that well, primarily because I'm speculating here. That being said, your post is what I was talking about. I'm on a very junior airplane at ASA for FOs, but extremely senior for captains. 8 years of seniority seems to barely hold 4 day trips over the weekend and min days off months for the captains on the ATR. I've heard stories that 10 years of seniority might, or might not, hold a line on the 70. I just get the sense from talking with a couple of buds over at SKYW that ASA is relatively 'senior' to SKYW, FWIW.

-Now, before this goes the wrong way, I'm not in any way advocating that ASA folks 'circle the wagons' in an effort to assimilate the SKYW folks and have all their bases, aircraft, hot flight attendants are belong to us......well, maybe the flight attendants. imp:

For the two lists to ever work as one, it would HAVE to be a win-win. It would never work as a 'hostile' takeover by the ASA guys....

 

[Caspian27]

CFI,

Thanks for the reply.

I will tell you that my impression as a relatively junior OO pilot is that outside of ORD, OO is a very senior airline for Captains. The most junior Captain in my base (DEN) has been here almost 4 years. On the FO side, I don't hold a line in DEN and I've been here 15 months. I was based in ORD for 8 months and every month I was there, my base seniority got worse. Compare these to SLC which is VERY senior. The only base which I'd be sure of holding a line right now is ORD, and I'd be a few numbers from not holding one.

I'm thinking that to even hold DEN as a Captain it will take me another 4-5 years.

 

[Caspian27]

Oh yeah, by the way, I liked the "all your bases are belong to us" reference. 10 points for clever cultural reference.

Forgot to say that in the previous post....

I'd like to see one list that's fairly integrated. It would protect both sides...

I'm still not sure on the relative seniority of both companies though....

 

[CFIT]

Hey its one of the Burka Boyz....


I didn't get your reply on OO pilots using CREW PASS? Should they use this ALPA won measure? Or shun it like they did ALPA....

Would it be hypocritical?

Will you use it?

Hey it's one of the volunteer cheerleaders!

CrewPass wow, how long did that take to put in place and how much did ALPO do? Probably only what the TSA said they could.

And how long did it take? 911 aniversary next month, will be 7 years.

Now thats a fast track job! GO ALPO!

If it was a real union it would have told all the pilots, if this doesn't get fixed now we'll all not come to work the first day of the next month.

The problem would have been fixed that afternoon.

But no, ALPO is really just a business and didn't want to risk a fine.

Maybe if ALPO had a real set of stones maybe OO would join, but most of us just see it as lethargic, clumsy, poorly run, out dated, failure.

So ya Rez, if it gets through security faster great, I'll try it.

I answered your question.

Now answer mine.

Does Prater and Worth get a pension on top of their nearly half million incomes at member expense?

Ya think they could have smart enough to put a couple of bucks away........