Real Men of Genius....The ASA MEC

[~~~^~~~]

I'm on pace to make about 110K flying this french pinwheel...

No....just business 101......You can't expect to negotiate more pay if your company and industry are losing money.....I want my company and industry to make large amounts of money.....that helps me and you....sorry you can't see that.....

You are making a 110K thanks to an ALPA negotiated contract... oh' the irony.

They did do better on the current contract than you, or I, expected under the circumstances. In the interest of "balanced" you must give some credit for the contract.

Jerry Atkin would make more money without ALPA and you'd make less.

There is balance. ALPA is a better counterweight than we are individually.

Maybe an in house union would be effective, but their track record isn't as good as ALPA's.

ALPA got your reps a seat at the table and scope that binds the parent company. You share some of the credit for the progress that has been made. Why are you always trying to overthrow a group of your fellow pilots who have benefitted you and who have enacted some of your agenda?

What's the goal? Where are you trying take things? Which bus gets you closer to your destination?

I understand your frustrations with ALPA, but not your methods. Have to look at the whole picture and the results of your actions, if successful.

How would in house reps fix things? How would the group of volunteers that are the point where the rubber meets the road change things for the better?

 

[JoeMerchant]

You are making a 110K thanks to an ALPA negotiated contract... oh' the irony.

They did do better on the current contract than you, or I, expected under the circumstances. In the interest of "balanced" you must give some credit for the contract.

Jerry Atkin would make more money without ALPA and you'd make less.

There is balance. ALPA is a better counterweight than we are individually.

1. The context of this debate was whether or not gross pay can go up under a Republican President.....It did.....My pay has gone up the last 8 years of the Bush administration while my taxes have gone down.....

2. The current contract is about what I expected....could have been reached sooner if we had been more realistic......

3. Republican or Democrat.....negotiating will go better if we didn't compete with each other for flying.......

4. I think we would have a better chance of having inclusive scope.....single list....without ALPA.....That is far more important to me than supporting a failed union...

5. Why have you changed your tune?

 

[~~~^~~~]

4. I think we would have a better chance of having inclusive scope.....single list....without ALPA.....That is far more important to me than supporting a failed union...

5. Why have you changed your tune?

4. I respectfully disagree. ALPA has pushed the single list concept, but stops short when faced with angry rebuttals from mainline pilot groups.

Many mainline pilots are not logical on the subject. It IS political and is going to be political regardless of who does the representing. If ALPA doesn't have the power to force one list on GoJets, you can bet the ASA Pilots' Assoc. lacks the horsepower to force it on SkyWest, or Delta, particularly outside of ALPA's DFR.

5. I don't think my tune has changed. My support for the RJDC effort was to achieve reform within ALPA. Many of these reforms were achieved and I'm happy with the success.

Delta had some dark days. Some of the players remain, but for the most part the new crew has brought a very fresh perspective and are doing things right.

ALPA on the Delta property has enabled a merger unlike any collective bargaining group in the history of our profession. We are working for a fair merger with a group that was openly hostile at the opening. Now it appears they are on board. Delta management openly credits DAL ALPA's fresh approach with the success of the company and positive expectations which have reduced the cost of the merger while increasing the benefits.

ALPA has negotiated equity and raises in a tough environment, getting something for our cooperation.

Are things perfect? No. But many more things are done right than done wrong.

ALPA IS a grass roots organization. Joe there are times when you are right on the money and times when you are wrong. Think back about some of your reforms and you'll realize that the politicians have adopted (and claimed ownership) of your ideas when you were right.

So you have seen, the process works. If you want OneList you have to first convince your pilots. Representatives don't lead, they follow they represent the mood and direction of their pilots.

How is that going to change with an in house union?

You'll never get everything you want. The majority will get most of what it wants. Change minds, you can change outcomes.

~~~^~~~

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joe Merchant-

Please provide a detailed analysis of the first in house regional airline union that you intent to create...

Tell us how you can do better with every ASA pilots career expectations in your hands...

Keep in mind, the children of pilots don't care what union mom or dad belong to... they just want their pilot parent employed so they can eat.

 

[DX Rick]

Joe Merchant-

Please provide a detailed analysis of the first in house regional airline union that you intent to create...

Tell us how you can do better with every ASA pilots career expectations in your hands...

Keep in mind, the children of pilots don't care what union mom or dad belong to... they just want their pilot parent employed so they can eat.

And poor little Timmy and Jill whose parents flew for ATA, Aloha and the likes.....are now starving.

 

[Texx]

You were involved at one time.....why did you quit?

And I did my "Tour of Duty".

And the people that matter already know. Old news move on.

 

[Texx]

People don't like to post their names because of the ALPA thugs who then personally attack them....I don't care because they are really all bark and no bite....but many don't like it.....

ALPA doesn't like dissent...

Yes and I have been attacked but I still post on the ALPA Board when I don't agree. I really can care less about what someone thinks or says.

 

[Texx]

No... they don't like obstructionist....

Dissent is fine... but there is a way to handle it in a democratic organization...

Withholding meeting minutes and conducting lawsuits is also poor form....


The US gov't allows dissent but it also doesn't tolerate active efforts to obstruct and undermine it. Hence treason.


Mature, intelligent, well thought out and respectfully delivered opposition and dissent is fine.... In fact don't you agree that that is how it should be communicated...

Or do you think dissent should be fist on the table banging, yelling, deceitful, disrespectful and untrustworthy?

Ohhhhh ZING!

 

[Speedtape]

4. I respectfully disagree. ALPA has pushed the single list concept, but stops short when faced with angry rebuttals from mainline pilot groups.

Many mainline pilots are not logical on the subject. It IS political and is going to be political regardless of who does the representing. If ALPA doesn't have the power to force one list on GoJets, you can bet the ASA Pilots' Assoc. lacks the horsepower to force it on SkyWest, or Delta, particularly outside of ALPA's DFR.

5. I don't think my tune has changed. My support for the RJDC effort was to achieve reform within ALPA. Many of these reforms were achieved and I'm happy with the success.

Delta had some dark days. Some of the players remain, but for the most part the new crew has brought a very fresh perspective and are doing things right.

ALPA on the Delta property has enabled a merger unlike any collective bargaining group in the history of our profession. We are working for a fair merger with a group that was openly hostile at the opening. Now it appears they are on board. Delta management openly credits DAL ALPA's fresh approach with the success of the company and positive expectations which have reduced the cost of the merger while increasing the benefits.

ALPA has negotiated equity and raises in a tough environment, getting something for our cooperation.

Are things perfect? No. But many more things are done right than done wrong.

ALPA IS a grass roots organization. Joe there are times when you are right on the money and times when you are wrong. Think back about some of your reforms and you'll realize that the politicians have adopted (and claimed ownership) of your ideas when you were right.

So you have seen, the process works. If you want OneList you have to first convince your pilots. Representatives don't lead, they follow they represent the mood and direction of their pilots.

How is that going to change with an in house union?

You'll never get everything you want. The majority will get most of what it wants. Change minds, you can change outcomes.

~~~^~~~

Fins,
Very well stated, as always! You are grounded in your statements and have not forgotten your roots, yet. However, you also have a new vantage point in your new position and can contribute balance and insight, as always!

 

[HoserASA]

Yes and I have been attacked but I still post on the ALPA Board when I don't agree. I really can care less about what someone thinks or says.

You're a putzzzzzzzzzzz!

Hoser
Roll Tide!
Bring Favre Back to The Pack!

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Lame cop out. I think he was asking if you're a rep, which should be obvious considering you always parrot the ALPA party line, just like your buddy rez-o-lution. As I told him, they must teach you guys this stuff in rep school:

1. Never admit ALPA is wrong.
2. Attack anyone who questions ALPA, using personal attacks if necessary, hoping to undermine their credibility.
3. Blame the membership and their lack of involvement for the problems you as a rep can't solve.

It's old. I'm a plain old ALPA member, and you ALPA cheerleaders blathering on message boards is embarrassing to all of us. You aren't doing us any favors "defending ALPA" in pigsties like this. Maybe you all should just give it a rest and find something else to preach about. For MOST us us, our life extends beyond work!!!

Still crickets chirping. Wonder why Speedtape ignores anything he doesn't want to admit to? A true Internet Tough Guy.

 

[JoeMerchant]

4. I respectfully disagree. ALPA has pushed the single list concept, but stops short when faced with angry rebuttals from mainline pilot groups.

Many mainline pilots are not logical on the subject. It IS political and is going to be political regardless of who does the representing. If ALPA doesn't have the power to force one list on GoJets, you can bet the ASA Pilots' Assoc. lacks the horsepower to force it on SkyWest, or Delta, particularly outside of ALPA's DFR.

Fins...I am talking about a single list at Skywest Inc.....We have a better shot without ALPA....ALPA doesn't want a representational vote for the combined list...They are afraid they will lose....and they are probably right.....

ALPA doesn't want to lose the ASA pilots.....

I believe an in house group could work with Jerry to achieve it....

5. I don't think my tune has changed. My support for the RJDC effort was to achieve reform within ALPA. Many of these reforms were achieved and I'm happy with the success.

Delta had some dark days. Some of the players remain, but for the most part the new crew has brought a very fresh perspective and are doing things right.

ALPA on the Delta property has enabled a merger unlike any collective bargaining group in the history of our profession. We are working for a fair merger with a group that was openly hostile at the opening. Now it appears they are on board. Delta management openly credits DAL ALPA's fresh approach with the success of the company and positive expectations which have reduced the cost of the merger while increasing the benefits.

ALPA has negotiated equity and raises in a tough environment, getting something for our cooperation.

Are things perfect? No. But many more things are done right than done wrong.

ALPA IS a grass roots organization. Joe there are times when you are right on the money and times when you are wrong. Think back about some of your reforms and you'll realize that the politicians have adopted (and claimed ownership) of your ideas when you were right.

So you have seen, the process works. If you want OneList you have to first convince your pilots. Representatives don't lead, they follow they represent the mood and direction of their pilots.

How is that going to change with an in house union?

You'll never get everything you want. The majority will get most of what it wants. Change minds, you can change outcomes.

~~~^~~~

Your tune has changed.....you now advocate adding the Compass pilots to your list.....but not the CMR or Mesaba pilots.....Compass was an ALPA created alter-ego and you know it....There are many fine ALPA members at CMR and Mesaba...but apparantly they are good enough? Inclusive scope would include all Compass, Mesaba, and CMR pilots.....

Now what about my company? I doubt you have any "inclusive" plans for ASA/Skywest....You and I are now on opposite sides of an ALPA created fence....You need to do what is best for you and I need to do what is best for me...They aren't the same thing......

There isn't going to be "onelist" with each brand...That ship sailed long ago while the egomaniacs fiddled....I want onelist at Skywest and I want to grow my company....I don't want any restrictions from my union on my company......

Just curious, what ideas of mine has ALPA leadership has claimed as their own? I wish you were right...but I don't see it....

Need to have you up to the mountains to discuss this further.....Ken and I have a large stock of homemade wine that is perfect for these types of discussions.......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe Merchant-

Please provide a detailed analysis of the first in house regional airline union that you intent to create...

Tell us how you can do better with every ASA pilots career expectations in your hands...

Keep in mind, the children of pilots don't care what union mom or dad belong to... they just want their pilot parent employed so they can eat.

Rez...I'm not the one the advocating decertification at this time....I like the idea of being in the same union as the mainline pilots so that we have a DFR sledgehammer......Eagle pilots don't have the DFR hammer....

The decertification movement is being led by a former MEC member and it is picking up steam....The 401k issue was incredibly stupid...It pushed many people over the edge.....It even turned around some former ALPA cheerleaders.....Yet another leadership blunder from the people that just don't get it....

You said the kids don't care....they just want mom and dad to have a job so they can eat....ALPA can't deliver that promise......ALPA pilots are currently replacing other ALPA pilots....What other union allows union members to replace other union "brothers".....

I can't believe you actually made "job security" a reason to keep ALPA.....They have failed in that job.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yes and I have been attacked but I still post on the ALPA Board when I don't agree. I really can care less about what someone thinks or says.

Neither you nor I care what other people think....but many people aren't the same.....ALPA makes a point to personally attack people that don't tow the party line.....especially those who attack ALPA.....

I can't support an organization that personally attacks those who pay the bill....maybe you can......

 

[Speedtape]

Lame cop out. I think he was asking if you're a rep, which should be obvious considering you always parrot the ALPA party line, just like your buddy rez-o-lution. As I told him, they must teach you guys this stuff in rep school:

1. Never admit ALPA is wrong.
2. Attack anyone who questions ALPA, using personal attacks if necessary, hoping to undermine their credibility.
3. Blame the membership and their lack of involvement for the problems you as a rep can't solve.

It's old. I'm a plain old ALPA member, and you ALPA cheerleaders blathering on message boards is embarrassing to all of us. You aren't doing us any favors "defending ALPA" in pigsties like this. Maybe you all should just give it a rest and find something else to preach about. For MOST us us, our life extends beyond work!!!

To answer his and your question: NO!

Your life extends beyond work and here you are lecturing about what others should be doing? Pious, are you?

 

[CFI2766]

JM wrote:

Fins...I am talking about a single list at Skywest Inc.....We have a better shot without ALPA....ALPA doesn't want a representational vote for the combined list...They are afraid they will lose....and they are probably right.....

ALPA doesn't want to lose the ASA pilots.....

I believe an in house group could work with Jerry to achieve it....

Sincere question (not flame): How/What would the new representative organization that you are proposing to create do better than the current representation from ALPA? What would the return be to the pilot group from their required investment of time, dues, and assessments to get this new organization to V1?


Personally, I think that a single list with SkyW and ASA is clearly in the long term best interests of both of the pilot groups. Also, frankly, I don't care what amalgamation of letters is printed on the letterhead, as long as my concerns as a regional pilot are at the very least considered, and not outright subordinated to the desires of the senior pilots at a 'Legacy' airline, or worse, the profit motives of the managerial suite in Utah.


All that being said, I believe that it would be extremely difficult to convince myself and the existing pilot groups that another option than ALPA will be better for our long term best-interests. ALPA is far from perfect (partly is own fault, and mostly the fault of the RLA), but it is the best option available.


I would characterize myself as having a pragmatic, but open mind to what you might have to say on this.

 

[JoeMerchant]

JM wrote:




Sincere question (not flame): How/What would the new representative organization that you are proposing to create do better than the current representation from ALPA? What would the return be to the pilot group from their required investment of time, dues, and assessments to get this new organization to V1?


Personally, I think that a single list with SkyW and ASA is clearly in the long term best interests of both of the pilot groups. Also, frankly, I don't care what amalgamation of letters is printed on the letterhead, as long as my concerns as a regional pilot are at the very least considered, and not outright subordinated to the desires of the senior pilots at a 'Legacy' airline, or worse, the profit motives of the managerial suite in Utah.


All that being said, I believe that it would be extremely difficult to convince myself and the existing pilot groups that another option than ALPA will be better for our long term best-interests. ALPA is far from perfect (partly is own fault, and mostly the fault of the RLA), but it is the best option available.


I would characterize myself as having a pragmatic, but open mind to what you might have to say on this.

Glen,

Good questions.....Here is my opinion on the matter....Speedtape and Rez will probably disagree....

Negotiating a single list is possible...it was done with Mesa/Freedom, CHQ/Republic, and Wings West/Simmons/Flagship/Executive.....The certificates can be and should be left separate....

The problem right now is that I believe ALPA doesn't really want to pursue this option here because they are afraid they will lose more members....and here is why they are worried about this...

If a single list is negotiated, it would require a new representational election for the new combined ASA/Skywest pilot group....In other words, we would all have to decide who we want to represent us.....That is required by the RLA....The Skywest pilots have already decided by a large margin that ALPA isn't right for them....I suspect a fairly large ASA group would join the Skywest pilots and vote for someone other than ALPA.....

ALPA cannot afford to lose more pilots right now....They are about to lose the Atlas/Polar group and they may lose a few other groups do to the current downturn.....Astar/Gemani/Medex/etc....

In addition to this "macro" issue involving ALPA national, we also have some at the local level that probably wouldn't be willing to "buy" the single list....It won't come for free.....It's the old short term pain for long term gain argument....Many pilots only understand the value of current section 3 rates....and not the value of section 1 which directly impacts section 3 later on down the road.....

JMO....others will disagree.....in 3....2.....1......

 

[~~~^~~~]

(1) Fins...I am talking about a single list at Skywest Inc.....We have a better shot without ALPA....

I believe an in house group could work with Jerry to achieve it....

(2) Your tune has changed.....you now advocate adding the Compass pilots to your list.....but not the CMR or Mesaba pilots.....Compass was an ALPA created alter-ego and you know it....There are many fine ALPA members at CMR and Mesaba...but apparantly they are good enough?

There isn't going to be "onelist" with each brand...That ship sailed long ago while the egomaniacs fiddled....I want onelist at Skywest and I want to grow my company....I don't want any restrictions from my union on my company......

(3) Just curious, what ideas of mine has ALPA leadership has claimed as their own? I wish you were right...but I don't see it....

(1) Jerry has the power to merge the Companies, which would likely result in decertification any time he wants to. The fact he has not should tell you something. SkyWest and the SkyWest pilots benefit too much from ASA's subsidiary position to want a change to the status quo.

One problem would be seniority integration. The SkyWest pilots do not want to give up the windfall they obtained at your expense. As United implodes and Delta expands on the West Coast, the SkyWest pilots may again be in the cat bird seat as Delta seeks to realign its regional feed regionally.

(2) Save your insults. My position on one list has not changed. To make real progress you have to start with what is reasonably attainable. Compass is an unique opportunity that just does not exist at the other regional carriers because of:

• Bilateral flow agreement*
• Low relative longevity*
• Concurrent seniority*
• Single Representational Structure*
• Training Agreements
• Growing to directly replace mainline DC9 flying
• Politically attractive equipment
• * avoids pretentions of better than staple SLI
• * avoid mainline fear of better than staple SLI

It is precisely because it is an ALPA alter ego that it needs to be fixed with one list. It makes sense to repair what you most recently broke - before it gets worse.

I'd like to see the other DCI carriers on board too, but those carriers present many more complicated issues than the majority of ALPA's members care to confront. The SLI issue is much easier at Compass and that is the issue which was the deal breaker because it was not dealt with up front in 1999... and before you start on the technical arguement, I cite the example of the Delta/NWA SLI where even they are trying to resolve the issue by every means possible BEFORE falling back to a PID. That is the power of political reality.

As is, there is more support for using MEC funds to throw a wedding reception for Michelle Burns and her life partner than trying to tie the knot with Compass. I'm peeing up a rope and hoping for the principle of absorbtion to overcome gravity.

(3) Dropping the A plan retirement demand and scope that binds the parent company are a few of the ideas that you promoted.

~~~^~~~

 

[CFI2766]

(1) Jerry has the power to merge the Companies, which would likely result in decertification any time he wants to. The fact he has not should tell you something. SkyWest and the SkyWest pilots benefit too much from ASA's subsidiary position to want a change to the status quo.

Yes, the fact that Jerry has shown no desire to consolidate the two companies to realize obvious 'synergies' is quite disconcerting from the point of view of an ASA employee. Additionally, couple this with the payroll expense savings that SKYW would likely realize with the possibility of removing ALPA and putting the suprefluous SKYW 'student council' at the helm of the pilot group to create a reasonable expectation that Jerry has something else in mind for ASA than our long term health as a going concern.

Our subsidiary position seems to be more of a subordinate, second in line, hind-t!t sucking, red-headed stepchild. The eventual coming of a recovery of the airline business and the attendant redistribution of resources (new aircraft and hiring) will clearly identify what ASA's value to SkyWest, and Delta, will be. Growth for ASA, over the inevitable loud objections of the entrenched, though relatively junior SKYW pilots, would be a very good sign for ASA. Ignoring ASA, despite recent, sustained, dramatic improvements in the quality of our operation, would evaporate the goodwill amongst the pilot group that is the backbone of the current turnaround at ASA.

...problem would be seniority integration. The SkyWest pilots do not want to give up the windfall they obtained at your expense. As United implodes and Delta expands on the West Coast, the SkyWest pilots may again be in the cat bird seat as Delta seeks to realign its regional feed regionally.

It wouldn't be a problem for the ASA guys/gals: We are relatively more senior than the SKYW folks.
-flippant sarcasm-

Seriously, A combination of the two lists would benefit the ASA pilot group initially, and in time benefit the SKYW group with more stability and truly collectively bargained improvements to their working agreements. It would be extremely difficult, though, to create a situation where the average SKYW pilot, with upgrade expectations that are different than just about anyone else in the industry, could feel like a combination would be a net positive.




(2) Save your insults. My position on one list has not changed. To make real progress you have to start with what is reasonably attainable. Compass is an unique opportunity that just does not exist at the other regional carriers because of:

• Bilateral flow agreement*
• Low relative longevity*
• Concurrent seniority*
• Single Representational Structure*
• Training Agreements
• Growing to directly replace mainline DC9 flying
• Politically attractive equipment
• * avoids pretentions of better than staple SLI
• * avoid mainline fear of better than staple SLI

It is precisely because it is an ALPA alter ego that it needs to be fixed with one list. It makes sense to repair what you most recently broke - before it gets worse.

I'd like to see the other DCI carriers on board too, but those carriers present many more complicated issues than the majority of ALPA's members care to confront. The SLI issue is much easier at Compass and that is the issue which was the deal breaker because it was not dealt with up front in 1999... and before you start on the technical arguement, I cite the example of the Delta/NWA SLI where even they are trying to resolve the issue by every means possible BEFORE falling back to a PID. That is the power of political reality.

As is, there is more support for using MEC funds to throw a wedding reception for Michelle Burns and her life partner than trying to tie the knot with Compass. I'm peeing up a rope and hoping for the principle of absorbtion to overcome gravity.

(3) Dropping the A plan retirement demand and scope that binds the parent company are a few of the ideas that you promoted.

~~~^~~~

Fins, I always learn something from your posts.

 

[PCL_128]

The 401k issue was incredibly stupid...It pushed many people over the edge.....

On this, we agree. This is just another in a long line of Prater blunders. But, Rez and I warned everyone two years ago that Prater wasn't qualified for the job, and everyone still demanded Duane's head on a stick. I submit that had Duane been reelected: 1) Age 60 would still be the law of the land, 2) The AAA pilots would still be ALPA members, and 3) There wouldn't be any back-door dues increase. Everyone wanted "anybody but Duane," and you got him. He's incompetent and inexperienced, and he's raising your dues and bankrupting your union, but you got him.