RE; Whatever Happened to My "FBI Profile of B19" Post? Revisted AGAIN

[B19 Flyer]

No. YOU are wrong and deeply misinformed.

I'll explain it to you 19. And I don't work for a union fractional. At least, not yet. The NBAA staffing formula is for PART 91. Netjets (and all other fractionals) require more pilots per airplane BECAUSE OF THE REGULATIONS. Part 91K and Part 135 require "look-back" flight and duty rest. Part 91 (my former life) does not. Hence, the staffing model is lower for a traditional corporate operation. It has NOTHING to do with a collective bargaining agreement.

No. YOU are wrong and deeply misinformed.

The traditional NBAA staffing model is 4.2 pilots per airplane.

The current 91K rules are based on the Part 119, non-scheduled, on demand Part 135 certificate and was based on REST rules, not those conservative rules in your CBA that add an additional 1.8 pilots per airplane.

This staffing model that pre-dates Part 91K "fractional" certificates before we got together and regulated the cowboy arrogance of the Part 91 operators which had no rules.

If YOU were there when we put these rules together for your safety, you would understand the reasoning behind it. As you weren't, and it's clear since you haven't a clue as a cockpit lawyer, you should leave the hardstuff such as this to those of us that are dedicated to keeping you safe.

Just fly your airplane and let those of us that have the courage to manage do our jobs. Without us, you wouldn't have any rest rules at all and your whining would be twice as bad as it is today.

 

[B19 Flyer]

If B19 is truly who he says he is, he would have known this. This is yet more confirmation that he is just a mindless anti union clown that is bitter against professional pilots because he couldn't hack it himself.

Waka, I am who I say I am, and I do know this.

The NBAA staffing model was always based on the regs and is based on the long standing Part 135 on-demand operations model as the fractional model most closely resembles it. The information is on the website and if you are a member with a password you can view it. The formula is based on 4.2 and is corrected by various factors. I can tell you that NOTHING you will come up with using that formula will ever approach 6 pilots per airplane unless a union collective bargaining agreement is involved that forces overhiring of pilots.


You on the other hand can't believe that NJ union screwed up as bad as they did and I predicted this over a year ago. This is just the beginning, and it's horrible that pilots are being forced to make these career decisions. It is immoral with the NJ union has done, and while you and the others "applaud" the actions of the union, all I see is buckets of money being dumped needlessly because of a CBA that was way too expensive for the company.

 

[doh]

Here's where the BSometer spikes. Never once have you said that management compensation has caused a company to lose money and down size. Oh the pain caused to the pilots from excessive management compensation! Only the unions greed causes pain, never poor management! Pilots, like management, are maximizers. Have you ever decried the management maxim "you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate"? Answer me that one, or STFU.

 

[brokeflyer]

b19, dont get so upset and unravel on us.....it's for "entertainment only".


Just go back to your job and stay off the PC...lol

 

[BeeDubya]

The traditional NBAA staffing model is 4.2 pilots per airplane.

And those number would be based on "traditional" flights/flight hours per airframe per year, right? Since the fractionals all fly more than "traditional" NBAA operators, wouldn't it stand to reason that more pilots would be needed, with or without a Union?

 

[doh]

Where did that number come from? Was it based upon a calculation of pilot quality of life? Why aren't we questioning the very premise of who determined that number and what their goals were? They were probably looking to comply with the legal requirements. If those legal requirements don't take into account some form of work/life balance, should we give them any validity at all? The NBAA is a trade group (a union if you will) that represents managements of business aircraft operators. Adam Smith said, in the Invisible Hand, that such trade groups exist solely to collude. True capitalists will be very skeptical of anything they do. W should all think about this before we say: "Oh gosh, the NBAA. Well then, it must be true."

 

[waka]

Just fly your airplane and let those of us that have the courage to manage do our jobs. Without us, you wouldn't have any rest rules at all and your whining would be twice as bad as it is today.

Now THAT is funny!:laugh:

You are a failure as a pilot. You are spineless and a butt kisser. That is not courageous. You incessantly talking about this "courage to be in management" crap indicates that you're insecure with your cowardice. However, if it makes you feel better and raises your self-esteem, please continue.

 

[waka]

Waka, I am who I say I am, and I do know this.

The NBAA staffing model was always based on the regs and is based on the long standing Part 135 on-demand operations model as the fractional model most closely resembles it. The information is on the website and if you are a member with a password you can view it. The formula is based on 4.2 and is corrected by various factors. I can tell you that NOTHING you will come up with using that formula will ever approach 6 pilots per airplane unless a union collective bargaining agreement is involved that forces overhiring of pilots.

This in no way changes the fact that you're just a mindless anti union clown that is bitter against professional pilots because you couldn't hack it himself.

You on the other hand can't believe that NJ union screwed up as bad as they did and I predicted this over a year ago. This is just the beginning, and it's horrible that pilots are being forced to make these career decisions. It is immoral with the NJ union has done, and while you and the others "applaud" the actions of the union, all I see is buckets of money being dumped needlessly because of a CBA that was way too expensive for the company.

More classic B19 drivel!

 

[brokeflyer]

yes it's been extremely comical lately since its clear that he LOST.

keep it up cause I love it.

 

[imacdog]

I wonder what excuse B19 makes for the coporate flight departments that have ceased operations in the last year - after all, those departments are decidedly non-union, so what gives?

 

[realityman]

Well, this thread has gone down the "stupid trail" yet again, apparently because of the rantings of B19. He's on my ignore list, so I'm not sure what he's saying, but based on people's responses, plus the ones who quote him, it looks like the same old thing from B19: "Unions are bad. They cause ALL the trouble. They are self-serving. They don't care about anyone outside of the union. Management people are gods. Unions ruin companies. Blah blah blah." Did I miss anything?

But this time, it appears good all "B" is trying to blame NJ's current overstaffing problem on the union. It would be funny if it weren't so ignorant and biased.

Here's a real simple breakdown of how crew staffing works. But let me start by saying I'm sure NJ's has a certain formula they use to come up with a number. And I fully realize that our CBA factors into that formula. However, our CBA work rules very closely mirror the FAR's, so I'll base my own formula on the FAR's.

NJ's staffing ratio (what they try for) is 5.5 pilots/airframe. Let's take a very simplistic view of this. For starters, the FAR's REQUIRE that each of these planes be flown with 2 pilots. Absolutely no way around that one (unless you're operating a VLJ, which NJ's does not). Okay, so far we've got 2 pilots/plane.

But wait, the FAR's (NOT OUR CBA) state that under 91K or 135 we can only be on duty for 14 hours out of every 24 (it's actually a 24-hour look-back for the 10 hours of rest, but let's just leave it at 14 hours of duty to keep it simple). Well, the very nature of our business requires these planes be available 24 hours of every day. How do we do that if the 2 pilots we started with are only allowed 14 hours of duty per the FAR's (NOT our CBA)? You still with me B19? Good. That means we'll need another 2 pilots (you remember, the FAR's require 2 pilots to fly these things?) per plane to make this a 24/7 operation.

So we're up to what? 4 pilots/airframe. That seems to jive with the NBAA figures.

But wait! I'm sure B19 would love it if we did this, but those numbers only work if every pilot doesn't mind being available every single day of the year. No vacations. No sick days. No personal days. No weekends off or normal breaks. No holidays. Oh, and no pilots going to any sort of training. Everyone works every single day! There, now we see that we only need 4 pilots/airframe! Guess B19 is right after all.

Of course, we're pretty lucky that NJ's management doesn't live in B19's alternate universe. I think they realize that NOBODY works every single day of the year. Pilots DO have to come off the line for training. People DO get sick. And so on and so forth. So it looks like 4 pilots/airframe won't work.

I'm sure NJ's took all this into consideration, and the end result is a crew ratio of 5.5 pilots/airframe.

Has absolutely NOTHING to do with our CBA. So why are we looking at furloughs (maybe)? Because of the economy. Plain and simple. Owners are getting out. We hired in anticipation of a bunch of deliveries that aren't going to happen now. And so on and so forth. The union, and the CBA, have NOTHING to do with it. I don't care how loudly B19 screams that it's the union's fault. It's not. Stating a falsehood a thousand times still doesn't make it true.

I forgot to mention that on any given day, a certain number of our fleet is down for maintenance, so that brings the crewing needs down a little. But overall, 5.5 pilots/airframe is a pretty efficient ratio for the type of operation NJ's runs.

We ARE overstaffed. I don't think anyone can blame the union for that (unless your a raving idiot foaming at the mouth against unions all the time). And I actually don't blame management for it either. Who actually saw things getting this bad? It's just one of the vagaries of life. Sometimes there simply isn't any good place to assign blame.

 

[fischman]

Waka, I am who I say I am, and I do know this.

Well KB, since you never said who you are does that make you nobody?

 

[brokeflyer]

before we had the union it was still 5.5 per plane.

dont even bother to respond b19.

 

[brokeflyer]

with all the attention with netjets that he seeks it's probly that he got fired from there. Maybe right around the time our "industry leading" contract came through....lol

 

[gutshotdraw]

No. YOU are wrong and deeply misinformed.

The traditional NBAA staffing model is 4.2 pilots per airplane.

The current 91K rules are based on the Part 119, non-scheduled, on demand Part 135 certificate and was based on REST rules, not those conservative rules in your CBA that add an additional 1.8 pilots per airplane.

This staffing model that pre-dates Part 91K "fractional" certificates before we got together and regulated the cowboy arrogance of the Part 91 operators which had no rules.

If YOU were there when we put these rules together for your safety, you would understand the reasoning behind it. As you weren't, and it's clear since you haven't a clue as a cockpit lawyer, you should leave the hardstuff such as this to those of us that are dedicated to keeping you safe.

Just fly your airplane and let those of us that have the courage to manage do our jobs. Without us, you wouldn't have any rest rules at all and your whining would be twice as bad as it is today.

Boy, he just doesn't get it, does he boys and girls?

I WAS management 19. I was the Chief Pilot of a Part 91 Gulfstream "cowboy" operator until the department was closed in favor of fractional ownership. We were actually cheaper than fractional but other considerations were more important to the boss than money.

But we always used an augmented crew when the mission called for it. We always knew our takeoff time and were properly rested. Come to think of it, the Fortune 500 "cowboy" flight department I worked for before that always pre-positioned a relief crew for tech stops. And the "cowboy" Part 91 operators I fly contract for these days seem to always augment or pre-position relief crews for long range operations (which is WHY I sometimes get contract work). No, it wasn't until I started flying fractional that I saw the "cowboy" operations. 18-20 hour duty days, 12-14 hours of flying without an extra crewmember, 3 AM callouts when we were briefed for a 10 AM show, "you're the only one", etc.

You say "management" created the 91K flight and duty rules? Fantasy. I wasn't in the room but I know people who were at the FOARC meetings and I followed the proceedings more closely than most. Management fought the 91K rules tooth and nail. It was the voices of hundreds of pilots and Part 135 operators (like Marc Fruchter) that demanded FAA STOP PERMITTING MANAGEMENT ABUSE of Part 91 rules. Like most people with an axe to grind and few facts to back them up, you practice revisionist history.

I'm no union cheerleader. Ask anyone on this board. I am one of the 300 pilots at NJI that will be integrated involuntarily into NJASAP in about 17 months with decidedly mixed emotions. Our staffing model is about 5.5 per airplane AND WE DON'T HAVE A CBA. NJA staffs at a little over 6 per airframe but we only staff two fleets and they staff a dozen (which, last time I looked was a "management" decision, not NJASAP's). Does a union contract introduce some "inefficiency" into the system? Perhaps. But the union is clearly working hard with the company to fix the overstaffing issue in a mutually beneficial way.

And you STILL haven't answered the question of how pilots who WOULD OR SHOULD have been considering retirement anyway are somehow getting screwed by the early out program. That's because you refuse to have a FACT-BASED discussion of the issues and instead accuse anyone who even remotely disagrees with you of being a kool-aid drinking automoton.

I've read a few of your posts, mostly for the entertainment value but I am now going to utilize a button that I have avoided for 5 years on this board. It's called "IGNORE." Happy trails.