Ramped by 2 airport cops and 2 sheriffs. . .Accused me of a Felony!!!! No Kidding

[CrimsonEclipse]

Been away for awhile...whadidimiss?

(*reads other posts*)

Oh my....This is Thread Flight 93 squaking 7500.

CE

(*Finds parachute*)

 

[iflyabeech]

I don't think that I need to defend my self against these personal attacks, but I can assure you that this is real. It did happen exactly as I describe, and I started the thread mainly to help others. This is not meant to be political and someone really needs to crack down on thread hijackers such as FN_FAL. Just be nice man!

 

[Van Hooydonk]

You're an idiot. Skylawyer is a fake and you drank the coolaide.

I believe it is "Kool Aid" which is a registered trademark of Kraft foods, along with various other mumbo-jumbo of brands, that noone else is interested in.

 

[3-60FreightDog]

As far as I know you have to show your papers to the FAA or (representative thereof) to include state and federal officers. Why they blocked you in, called out the swat team, gave you an enema then told you to bend over and "just relax" is news to me. The only time I have EVER seen that done was when the D.E.A and US Customs took down a 172 after landing in Tamiami. Odds are they were making a part 91 run to pay off the school loan.

 

[LJDRVR]

You're an idiot. Skylawyer is a fake and you drank the coolaide.

Oh no, insults! I could care less. Look, I've got better BS radar than most on here, I've unmasked 3 separate posers in my time on FI, and I get no such vibe from this guy.

What I do get is an overwhelming sense of your need to be more informed than anybody on areas pertaining to firearms, caravans, and your self-imagined sense of superiority in all matters concerning your understanding of the law and civil liberties.

You can call the guy a fake all you want: Prove it, smart-ass!

 

[LJDRVR]

Baa
Baa
Baa

Better to die on your feet, than live on your knees!

A sheep? No, somebody who has a firm grip on the reality of the situation at hand.

Police officers deserve our respect. Any officer you come into contact with is not the judge or jury regarding any laws you may have broken. But they do have the power to deprive you of your liberty and as such, some discretion and craftiness is warranted. Here's a hypothetical situation for you Calvin: You get ramped by a local cop, he asks to see your pilot certificate. You refuse to let him handle it because of some crap you heard on the internet or think you may have remembered reading about in AOPA. If the cop your talking to is not a patient, super professional individual, your actions will seem highly suspicious, and what may have been a routine matter now has his attention in a whole new light. "At least I have my principles" you think, as he hauls you off to jail so that a better idea of who you are and what it you were really up to can be ascertained.

What wold you do? I'll answer for you: you'd stand there just like the rest of us alpha-male, type A, authority respectful aviator types, patiently and politely responding to the officer's requests.

Sure is easy to talk smack on the internet, though.

 

[iflyabeech]

What wold you do? I'll answer for you: you'd stand there just like the rest of us alpha-male, type A, authority respectful aviator types, patiently and politely responding to the officer's requests.

Thats what I did!

 

[FN FAL]

• Cooperate earnestly until arrested, then STFU and exercise your right to remain silent, no matter how much you believe "cooperating" with your captors may result in your release. Get a lawyer.

So you're saying that during a police detention like this ramp detention by county police, blurt out things that will get you arrested and will be used against you later in a court of law, when you have a lawful right to do otherwise. Then, after it's too late and you're arrested, be quiet?

That's not what the law says LJDRVR.

The law says that the county cop had a lawful right to ask for those documents and ID.

The law says that iflyabeach has lawful obligation to show those things to an officer.

The law says that person has the lawful right to remain silent when being detained or arrested by a police officer. If the officer gets mad because you won't answer questions during a detention or arrest, that's too bad, because I can not have respect for any officer of the law, that does not respect the law himself.

 

[Metro752]

...........Metro72 if it makes you feel better you can read my profile and see I went the regional route for a while. I am a fellow aviator at heart. There are a ton of crap lawyers and they give some of the better ones a bad reputation. I understand your frustration.

SKYLAWYER,

I am sorry.

Eagle,

thanks for cleaning that up for me. I apologize to you as well.

 

[FN FAL]

What I do get is an overwhelming sense of your need to be more informed than anybody on areas pertaining to firearms, caravans, and your self-imagined sense of superiority in all matters concerning your understanding of the law and civil liberties.

What I get a sense of, is that you are jealous that people know stuff and you don't.

 

[LJDRVR]

What I get a sense of, is that you are jealous that people know stuff and you don't.

No, I'm just a stupid airplane driver. At least I know when I'm posting on a subject matter that somebody else is more knowledgeable on than I, an ability you sadly lack. You're just pissed that SKYLAWYER exposed your ignorance.

There are a few experts on this board, but you and I are not one of them.

Cheers,

 

[iflyabeech]

There is another thing you can do. It is likely that there is a police report of the matter with the law enforcement agencies - which is public record and you can obtain a copy.

Most states also have open record or "FOIA" laws. Depending on the specifics of your state FOIA, you may be able to obtain a copy of any record of any public agency pertaining to the matter - for only the asking and reasonable costs of copying. In my state, it must be provided within 24 hours, unless in use or in storage (then they have 72 hours). If they don't, the state Attorney General will take action against them for non-compliance with the FOIA

In my state this includes electronic records and files and dispatch center tape recordings, as well as paper documents and records.

Likely this would be a good source of info as to what was going on and what the actual cause of the action was.

In my state, they can be withheld from FOIA if they are deemed as Law Enforcement records being used in an "active investigation" - if they tell you this in response to the FOIA request, there may be bigger problems brewing.

You don't have to be a lawyer to do this. The premise of FOIA is that any citizen who funds the government should be able to review what the government is doing with the funding.

YMMV depending on your specific state.

Good Luck

I'll look into this.

 

[sky37d]

cool
I'll know what to do next time. I'll tell them FN FAL is my lawyer.

 

[satpak77]

lots of heated debate......

I just started flying a Grumman AA-1B that a non-pilot friend of mine owns. I started taking care of this plane the first of this month. I had to update the registration and get it annualed and elt and transponder checked.
Today I flew it to another Class C airport about 70 miles from here. When I returned to home base, (Class D airport w/tower) the airport police showed up and blocked me off. Two airport cops jumped out and two plainclothes sheriffs officers jumped out and assumed offensive postures. I said whats up guys, and the airport cop said, " Just a routine ramp inspection, I need your pilot cert., medical, and the aircraft registration and airworthiness. I complied and he took them to his vehicle while the others stared at me. I continued putting the Grumman to bed and finally I told the plainclothed sheriff that routine ramp inspections usually involved an FAA inspector, not 4 cops. He said, that actually they had gotten an email from the FAA that I was operating an aircraft with an invalid registration and that it was a 3rd degree felony. Flabbergasted, I told him that I had submitted the registration papers on the April, 6, 2006, (18 days ago) and that the pink copy that I had showed them was good for 90 days! They tallked to someone on the phone and made copies of all my paperwork and let me go. They said they would have arrested me for a class 3 felony. Class 3 felony!!!?!?!?!?! What?

Anyone else have any input?

1) Your local state likely has a law buried under Transportation Statutes that says you must have valid registration on your airplane.

2) Same state likely has laws that define whether it is a felony or misdemeanor to have invalid registration. "Felony" or "Misdemeanor" are levels of punishment for violations of CRIMINAL LAW (written by the states), the FAA in almost all cases in CIVIL or ADMINISTRATIVE LAW, whose punishment (in almost all cases) is a civil monetary penalty or certificate suspension. In some outrageous cases (Valujet oxygen canisters) criminal charges will be sought under Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, however an FAA Inspector will not do that. DOT-OIG and/or the FBI will bring those charges.

Here are some DOT-OIG cases:

http://www.oig.dot.gov/Room?subject=17

2a) FAA Inspectors can only refer cases to DOT-OIG or FBI, by picking up the phone and telling Agent Jones that "hey, look, I think we have some criminal violations here" type thing. However FSDO Inspector Smith has absolutely no criminal law enforcement authority given to him, legally. Do some FAA cases turn into criminal as the investigation develops? Yes. However from a legal standpoint an FAA Inspector cannot go out and beat the bushes looking for criminal investigations by himself.

3) On the federal level, you are required under 61.3 (3)(I) to present your FAA documents "issued under this part" (Part 61) to any law enforcement officer. Read it for exact terminology.

4) On the state level, a statute (likely under your Transportation Code) likely exists empowering state/local law enforcement to ask for aircraft registration and pilots licenses.

So, your "ramp check" was likely 100% within the boundary of the law. Common? No. Legal? Very likely.

 

[iflyabeech]

I am not disagreeing that it was within the law. I think the law should be changed. In no way should an simple error with a registration be a felony. I am trying to call a few folks to see where I can go with this.

 

[Say Again Over]

There are a few experts on this board, but you and I are not one of them.

That was a good one, I'll join club.

 

[FN FAL]

There are a few experts on this board, but you and I are not one of them.

Dude, you might be a good stick with a lear jet, but you aint my daddy and I am the decider of who speaks for me and you aint it.

 

[Hold West]

That was a good one, I'll join club.

The non-experts club? Count me in.


FN FAL: Man, you are the master of the unproductive post.

 

[FN FAL]

The non-experts club? Count me in.


FN FAL: Man, you are the master of the unproductive post.

Whatever, I don't work for you anyway, so production is also what I am the decider of.

 

[Metro752]

how about reproduction

 

[FN FAL]

how about reproduction

I'd hit it.

 

[Metro752]

hell yeah!

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

I'm a non-expert in this also. So now that it is over, how about calling the Sheriff and ask them what brought this about? Tell them this is the first time anyone has ever heard of this sequence of events and was just curious how it happened so that it could be avoided in the future. Let us know what they say so we'll be well-informed with the facts and then we can become subject matter experts.

 

[FN FAL]

I'm a non-expert in this also. So now that it is over, how about calling the Sheriff and ask them what brought this about? Tell them this is the first time anyone has ever heard of this sequence of events and was just curious how it happened so that it could be avoided in the future. Let us know what they say so we'll be well-informed with the facts and then we can become subject matter experts.

If I was almost arrested for a felony, I wouldn't be so sure that it was "over". If Iflyabeach was serious about finding out what happened, he should have his attorney make that phone call. Unless of course the cops gave him a piece of paper that said the felony investigation was officially declared over and anything he says from now on would not be used against him in a court of law.

The cops came out to the airport and almost arrested him for a felony. For some reason, they left him standing there at the airport as a free man, but who's to say it's "over"?

 

[Metro752]

It doesn't make sense. This has got to be small town politics and B.S.

 

[FN FAL]

It doesn't make sense. This has got to be small town politics and B.S.

All the more reason to be a good citizen and let a lawyer make that phone call.

Remember this post on the thread from the AA pilot that got indicted by the feds for impersonating a federal LEO and making false statements to the feds? He thought it was over when he drove away from a traffic stop. According to this boxesdontbitch guy, two weeks later the feds show up and want to chat.

Had he clammed up when the feds came to talk to him about it, he would have faced only the one charge of impersonating and even that might have wound up as his word against the local cops word, if it made it to court. However, the feds poked that piñata with a stick during a friendly chat "detention" and low and behold...he gives them a second charge on a silver platter, the making of false statements to a federal agent.

Which would be the best choice? Shata or make up a story?

Now nothing, not even the best lawyer in the land can take back what he said. I'm not defending this guy, I only know what we read in the US AG's press release and what this guy posted, but speaking more is not your best interest when the spotlight is on you.

Originally Posted by boxesdontbitch
Okay, i actually know this guy. He and I were in the same guard unit (im retired) and still live in the same city. ..He was pulled over for a traffic violation and did try the ole "brother law enforcement" bit to dodge it. stupid, but not criminal. he did not claim he was a federl airmarshall but a part of the airmarshall program. trying to explain the FFDO program to someone who never heard of it. Then a couple of weeks later the feds show up to "just ask a few questions, to clear up this misunderstanding" Just a friendly chat, no need for a lawyer or anything. Next thing he knows hes indicted and the whole thing has literally become a federal case. Now he has a DA who wants a juicy career enhancing case (maybe get on FOX news!) and the feds with an axe to grind on FFDO's in general. So far American has told him that unless he is convicted they have no problem. The Air Guard though has grounded him and revoked security clearances until this is resolved. So if you are in the FFDO program, beware. You cannot dick around with this and skate by. Lots of confusion about your legal status as "law enforcement"

 

[Say Again Over]

IMO just another reason to scrap the FFDO program, many valid points to have a last resort but, thousands more reasons not to have some idiot in the aircraft with a gun and badge and NO law enforcement training. uke:

 

[atrdriver]

I agree with you on showing your certificates to anyone when not aviation related, but just remember DWI and DUI and covered in the FAR's because you have to report them. I believe substance abuse also is in thier somewhere but don't quote me on that one. These situations could required production of your certificates away from the airport. The good news is that good old barney fife usually doesn't know about it. Goodluck!

You are not required to have, in your possession, any type of avition certificates when you are not excercising the priviledges of those certificates. Period. If someone were ask for mine and I'm not at the airport I would just say I don't have them on me and there is NOTHING that anyone can do to me under the FAR's.

 

[atrdriver]

Then he'd tase you, you'd be arrested for impeding an officer/interfering with justice/disrupting investigative karma (or whatever catch all law they have on the books) and you'd be seeing the judge on Monday morning. In addition, don't eat the jailhouse chili and remember, you don't have to say boo...just name, rank and serial number.

They CAN'T take your certificate from you. They may examine it, but THEY MUST RETURN IT TO YOU. If they plan on revoking it there is a process for that, and it does NOT involve them taking it from you during a ramp check. With a cop, I would state before I handed it to them that I was giving it to them for examination, but under the FAR's they must return it to me after inspection.

 

[atrdriver]

Never mind....