Ramped by 2 airport cops and 2 sheriffs. . .Accused me of a Felony!!!! No Kidding

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Tonight on COOOOPS....... felony airport shakeDOWN!!!!!!!!!

 

[charter dog]

I remember reading a blurb a few months ago about how the FAA was going to "crack down" on owners of aircraft without a properly current registration by "possible denial" of air traffic control services to these aircraft. I remember wondering how they planned to implement this idea. Maybe the ground controller is supposed run your number against the list and say "Sorry 123AB, but your taxi clearance is denied." But this story sounds like something else was going on. I hope you find the answer.

Best,

 

[iflyabeech]

I also forgot to mention that the cops asked if I had a "Bill of Sale" I think they were talking to someone on the phone who told them to ask me this. I told them that a bill of sale was not required to be onboard and that I did not have one.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Hold west is dead on in his analysis of the authorities of peace officers regarding FAA certificates. Since FAA certificates are federal issue documents most police officers, federal agents, and high ranking municipality officials have access to ask you for them. Some such as police officers can request them under the authority of thier badges, other such as municipality officials can gain access to them through petition of the FAA. (Even though it is called a petition the FAA usually does not have the authority to say no, unless release of the records could cause due harm to a ongoing investigation, such as a plane crash) Several years ago a pilot in HPN refused to show the local police his certification when requested. (It was during a routine traffic stop involving a subsequent DUI arrest. The arresting officer noticed a pilot bag in the defendants trunk and being a private pilot himself requested to see the individuals FAA certification. The defendant refused siting that his pilot certification had nothing to due with a DUI stop. The NTSB later suspended this individuals certification for 1 year for refusal to present the certification to a peace officer upon request. I can email you a copy of the law file (72pgs) if you are interested in taking a look at the case. Regarding how exactly you were red flagged I would have to blame the airport you flew to. Give the operations people a call and ask for a N-Number check. When billing landing fees operations personell are usually working a computer (Compuland system) that once your tail number is entered will give them registration information including the billing address of the owner so that you may be billed for landing fees, and the airport may keep track of landings for the purpose of earning Airport improvement money. If the compuland system in use was not updated (which very often is not) this may have red flagged you. Depending on the amount of time you were on the ground usually operations personell will drive down to get your correct information. The Operations personell may have been a little trigger happy on this one and contacted the FAA when your tail number came back with an expired registration. You should not have any other problems with this because your Pink slip should close the case. If it does not, PM me and I will give you the number to the FAA administrative law judge in your FSDO so that you can close the case before if becomes a pain in the A$$. Hope this helps, Goodluck!!!

 

[iflyabeech]

Hold west is dead on in his analysis of the authorities of peace officers regarding FAA certificates. Since FAA certificates are federal issue documents most police officers, federal agents, and high ranking municipality officials have access to ask you for them. Some such as police officers can request them under the authority of thier badges, other such as municipality officials can gain access to them through petition of the FAA. (Even though it is called a petition the FAA usually does not have the authority to say no, unless release of the records could cause due harm to a ongoing investigation, such as a plane crash) Several years ago a pilot in HPN refused to show the local police his certification when requested. (It was during a routine traffic stop involving a subsequent DUI arrest. The arresting officer noticed a pilot bag in the defendants trunk and being a private pilot himself requested to see the individuals FAA certification. The defendant refused siting that his pilot certification had nothing to due with a DUI stop. The NTSB later suspended this individuals certification for 1 year for refusal to present the certification to a peace officer upon request. I can email you a copy of the law file (72pgs) if you are interested in taking a look at the case. Regarding how exactly you were red flagged I would have to blame the airport you flew to. Give the operations people a call and ask for a N-Number check. When billing landing fees operations personell are usually working a computer (Compuland system) that once your tail number is entered will give them registration information including the billing address of the owner so that you may be billed for landing fees, and the airport may keep track of landings for the purpose of earning Airport improvement money. If the compuland system in use was not updated (which very often is not) this may have red flagged you. Depending on the amount of time you were on the ground usually operations personell will drive down to get your correct information. The Operations personell may have been a little trigger happy on this one and contacted the FAA when your tail number came back with an expired registration. You should not have any other problems with this because your Pink slip should close the case. If it does not, PM me and I will give you the number to the FAA administrative law judge in your FSDO so that you can close the case before if becomes a pain in the A$$. Hope this helps, Goodluck!!!

Thanks, there are no ramp fees at either airport that I was at. . . I think it is a closed case but I do not like them making copies of my documents and certificates.

I would not show my pilot certificate or medical to anyone if the request was not aviation related. They will have to fight me on that one. . .Those certificates are my career and I do not like anyone messing with them. Especially when I obey the law.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Thanks, there are no ramp fees at either airport that I was at. . . I think it is a closed case but I do not like them making copies of my documents and certificates.

I would not show my pilot certificate or medical to anyone if the request was not aviation related. They will have to fight me on that one. . .Those certificates are my career and I do not like anyone messing with them. Especially when I obey the law.

No ramp fees, what about landing fees? If the Class C airport had a tower you tail number would have been registered by OPS personell for landing data analysis. Every airport certificated under part 139 is required to log this data. Just the most logical possibility, not necessary the scenario that actually happened. I agree with you on showing your certificates to anyone when not aviation related, but just remember DWI and DUI and covered in the FAR's because you have to report them. I believe substance abuse also is in thier somewhere but don't quote me on that one. These situations could required production of your certificates away from the airport. The good news is that good old barney fife usually doesn't know about it. Goodluck!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Once in my career I was involved in a report of a pilot drinking and flying. We called the state police who met the pilot on his arrival at an airport in Michigan. I've got no idea what happened after that; we're not cops, we're controllers.

Ding!

I recall an incident very similar to what you describe. A NWA flight was "identified" by a controller as "sounding drunk" on the radio. The FAA, local police, and Chief Pilot met the aircraft when it arrived in DTW.

Both pilots were given drug and alcohol tests by both the police, and NWA (DOT route).

Both came out negative, but were suspended 3 days awaiting the outcome of the lab work.

No word on what happened to the controller who fanged them, but I wish him/her a series of painful kidney stones.

 

[Hold West]

I would not show my pilot certificate or medical to anyone if the request was not aviation related.

As skylawyer cited in the case above, getting uppity about it could prove other than beneficial to your career.

His mention of the Administrative law judge reminded me of good ol' FAR 61.3, in part:

(l) Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:
(1) The Administrator;
(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board; or
(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.
(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration


Lotsa folks, under lotsa laws, can ask for your paperwork. Just keep clean and up to date.

 

[iflyabeech]

As skylawyer cited in the case above, getting uppity about it could prove other than beneficial to your career.

His mention of the Administrative law judge reminded me of good ol' FAR 61.3, in part:

(l) Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:
(1) The Administrator;
(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board; or
(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.
(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration


Lotsa folks, under lotsa laws, can ask for your paperwork. Just keep clean and up to date.

I think uppity would be a cop sticking his nose where it shouldn't be. There is absolutely no need to inspect my certificates if I am not at airport or involved in flying an airplane or something related. Period. and thats not what this is about anyways.

Anyways, I was very cordial and complied with everything they said in this incident.

 

[Hold West]

Ding!

I recall an incident very similar to what you describe. A NWA flight was "identified" by a controller as "sounding drunk" on the radio. The FAA, local police, and Chief Pilot met the aircraft when it arrived in DTW.

Both pilots were given drug and alcohol tests by both the police, and NWA (DOT route).

Both came out negative, but were suspended 3 days awaiting the outcome of the lab work.

No word on what happened to the controller who fanged them, but I wish him/her a series of painful kidney stones.

Wow, how the heck do you tell if someone sounds drunk? Mine was a GA flight that got reported by someone on the ground, apparently said the pilot had been drinking. We just watched that he went where his VFR flight plan said, the state police were supposedly there to meet him.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

I agree with the above posters. The registration thing is a big deal with the FAA right now, and they have ATC set up to flag "bad" registrations.

If you belong to AOPA, give them a call about it, or check out their website. They have quite a lot of information about this.

Before you fly anything, I would do a quick query of the FAA N number registry.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_inquiry.asp

It will show the status of the registration. I wouldn't fly anything that had a question mark in the registration (anything other that VALID) until it was cleaned up or until the FAA moves on to the next issue de jour. FWIW, if you put in a registration that is "In Question" into the search page, you will get a warning page before the registration pops up and a phone number to call.

As far as dealing with any John Q. Laws...be courteous, be polite, but insist that you see their badges and SIDA/Airport ID before you provide any documents. It's a major no-no for them to not provide ID.

Nu

 

[iflyabeech]

Heyas,

I agree with the above posters. The registration thing is a big deal with the FAA right now, and they have ATC set up to flag "bad" registrations.

If you belong to AOPA, give them a call about it, or check out their website. They have quite a lot of information about this.

Before you fly anything, I would do a quick query of the FAA N number registry.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_inquiry.asp

It will show the status of the registration. I wouldn't fly anything that had a question mark in the registration (anything other that VALID) until it was cleaned up or until the FAA moves on to the next issue de jour. FWIW, if you put in a registration that is "In Question", you will get a warning page before the registration pops up and a phone number to call.

As far as dealing with any John Q. Laws...be courteous, be polite, but insist that you see their badges and SIDA/Airport ID before you provide any documents. It's a major no-no for them to not provide ID.

Nu

I had already done this. My aircraft does show up as questionable. I have talked with the FAA office in OKC at the phone number provided and sent the registration in as required (On April 6, 2006). I am operating with the pink copy of the registration which is legal for 90 days from April 6, 2006. I am calling AOPA as well as my POI at the local FSDO manana.

 

[Guitar rocker]

In my H.Opinion, I don't think the sheriffs have the authority to do a routine ramp search, that is my FAA boys juristiction. Yes, there are state aviation laws but under what principal did they have to detain you temporarily? Why would the FAA call these guys to mess with you? I don't think they did. I think these cops were bored, got a tip from someone and decided to act like hard a..... I would call FSDO and tell them what happend, sounds like you were in compliance with all FAA regs and query them as to why they didn't do the search and local law enforcment did. then file a complaint with the local pd about harrasment and threats that were not warranted. Give me a break, I wish I could have been there.

MK

I agree with you. Why in the world would the FAA let local or airport cops have jursidiction in this case? I am suprised nobody from the FAA was there along with the police. I mean, do local cops really know what a "pink slip" is and maybe how long that is good for? Heck, I went through customs in MIA and when the customs guy asked to see my liscense, I on purposely gave him my CFI to see if EVEN he knew the difference. He himself didnt know what I gave him.....I think I could have handed him anything and he would have been good with it. Just gotta go through the formality as they give your liscense what appears to be an official look over. They all try to be official, but when yah ask em what they are looking for, I wonder if non FAA folks like these cops even knew what they were doing.

 

[Hold West]

Heyas,

I agree with the above posters. The registration thing is a big deal with the FAA right now, and they have ATC set up to flag "bad" registrations.

If you belong to AOPA, give them a call about it, or check out their website. They have quite a lot of information about this.

Before you fly anything, I would do a quick query of the FAA N number registry.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_inquiry.asp

It will show the status of the registration. I wouldn't fly anything that had a question mark in the registration (anything other that VALID) until it was cleaned up or until the FAA moves on to the next issue de jour. FWIW, if you put in a registration that is "In Question" into the search page, you will get a warning page before the registration pops up and a phone number to call.

I'm pretty low on the FAA food chain, but I get around, and I haven't heard or seen any "flagging" of particular aircraft.

I also find it a little questionable that AOPA raises the spectre of getting busted, then in the same breath graciously offers to sell you their services to avoid problems.

Not that what you say is bad advice! Quite the opposite. Make sure your stuff is up to snuff.

 

[iflyabeech]

The other funny thing is, I was flying at 1000 agl over the country for 50 miles without flight following between the two airports. . . Its wierd that they knew where to find me.