RAH buys Midwest!!!

[instructordude]

Spelling doesn't matter scab, flying a F-100 for 37$/H with no cancellation pay does. Have a nice F-U-C-K-I-N-G day scab.

Pretty tough words. If you have to work to pay the bills then one must do what he must do. Thats life bro!

 

[AirBill]

Spelling doesn't matter scab, flying a F-100 for 37$/H with no cancellation pay does. Have a nice F-U-C-K-I-N-G day scab.

Wow, Loretta. You got those shorts jammed way up your vagina, and they're making you downright bitchy.

 

[thepotato232]

I think if the three lists merge, the only pilots that will benefit are the Republic pilots. There is a huge disparity between the two contracts. The Republic pilots need to sign a contract equal to the Frontier or Midwest's, then let's start talking merger. This argument is a moot point. In a less than a year, there will be no Midwest pilots left and Bedford has already said the Frontier pilots will not be merged in.

And if the three lists don't merge, the two more expensive labor groups will be whipsawed into submission or simply eliminated per the lack of scope agreements. It really will be Eastern/Continental all over again, only this time with firm legal precident in place. It's what Bedford's been trying to do with Midwest since Day One, and he's been very successful so far. Nobody's saying this is a good situation for the Frontier or Midwest pilots. The problem is that companies are being bought anyway, whether RAH has a contract or not. Given the glacial rate at which RAH's contract negotiations have proceeded thus far, I don't think it's in anyone's best interests to sit back and wait on that contract first. And it's not Bedford's choice whether the Frontier pilots will be merged in or not. If he wants Frontier, he's got to allow for the possibility of a merged list. I doubt he'd really torch the whole deal over a merged list - he's getting F9 at a steal, and he knows it.

You're right in saying that the pilots that will benefit are the Republic group. The fact, unpleasant as it may be, is that all three of these groups are about to become "Republic" pilots. Nobody's saying that the current RAH pilots should end up in an Airbus anytime soon - fences would be in place. We have three labor groups coming together against their will, and three unions in sore need of a voice. Bedford's outright refusal that the lists will be merged should be a hint to us all how powerful this unified labor group could become, and how much he would prefer pitting these three groups against each other. The RAH guys working under IBT 747 have just had their Local head forcibly removed with pending federal indictments, and are currently under trusteeship. Would it not be in ALPA or at least FAPA's best interests to step in and try to help put this screwed up jigsaw puzzle together? The one faint glimmer of hope any of these groups have is that RAH hasn't signed a contract yet. This may be the last time any of these three groups has any leverage whatsoever. The whole world's been screaming at Republic to quit flying Embraers for peanuts. Well, here's their chance. But if these pilots can't put the mainline/regional sabers down and go into the future as one group, we all know what's going to happen down the line.

 

[DIZNYTWNPLT]

CRIPES!!!! I'm glad I don't do this airline stuff for a living anymore...good luck to all who are still grasping at straws...especially at Midwest...leaving Skyway on my first day of Capt. upgrade SIM for the Dork328Jet WAS the right move after all...I KNEW IT!!!! (Sorry to all the local WI, MI guys who went from Skyway to Midwest in their last bits of hiring...hope all have moved on to greener pastures...could hardly do otherwise.)

 

[Raoul Duke]

Well, how's that going to look to shareholders of RAH? Seems like a fairly cut-and-dried conflict of interest. Doesn't seem like a lot of shareholders would be too keen about that.

if I was Bedford here is what I would do:

1. create newco to hold 49% interest in Frontier - issue shares of newco to all existing RAH shareholders

2. retain 49% interest of Frontier by RAH

3. RAH management trust holding remaining 2% personally with a general partner who is not a RAH employee who will vote shares as requested by Bedford.

it is not rocket science and will not be difficult to keep the various airlines separate.

 

[Fubijaakr]

All he has to do to F9 is what he's doing to Midwest pilots. Outsource the flying to RAH. Furlough the F9 guys. Integrate the seniority lists with furloughed Midwest stapled to RAH and furloughed F9 stapled to Midwest. THEN increase the flying and bring them all back as $37 an hour F/Os. Simple.

 

[hockeypilot44]

All he has to do to F9 is what he's doing to Midwest pilots. Outsource the flying to RAH. Furlough the F9 guys. Integrate the seniority lists with furloughed Midwest stapled to RAH and furloughed F9 stapled to Midwest. THEN increase the flying and bring them all back as $37 an hour F/Os. Simple.

Wow. I didn't realize they were going to staple the furloughed Midwest pilots. The truth is Midwest was not bankrupt, never went bankrupt, and probably would not have gone bankrupt (the last one is debatable, can't be proven either way). The Midwest pilots are being replaced by Republic pilots to attack labor. I personally think if it ever goes to arbitration, there will be a ratio merger with the Republic captains. I think the most junior Midwest pilot will be senior to the most junior Republic captain. First year Midwest pay is $41, second year $58. First year Republic captain $50, second year $53. I think when it comes to it, this will be taken into consideration. I think the furloughed Midwest pilots will be given seniority because it can be proven that the 190's and 170's are direct replacements of the 717's and MD-80's. The Republic first officers are dreaming if they think they will get much better than that. I'm guessing it will end up being about a 3-1 ration. 3 Republic pilots for every 1 Midwest pilot. Frontier hasn't been bought yet. We'll see what happens there. This merger is uncharted territory. As far as who bought who, it doesn't matter in merging pilots. See Delta/NWA or USAirways,America West. The only thing brought into consideration is career expectations. The Midwest pilots never had career expectations making as little as a Republic first officer from day 1.

 

[Lear70]

Wow. I didn't realize they were going to staple the furloughed Midwest pilots. The truth is Midwest was not bankrupt, never went bankrupt, and probably would not have gone bankrupt (the last one is debatable, can't be proven either way). The Midwest pilots are being replaced by Republic pilots to attack labor. I personally think if it ever goes to arbitration, there will be a ratio merger with the Republic captains. I think the most junior Midwest pilot will be senior to the most junior Republic captain. First year Midwest pay is $41, second year $58. First year Republic captain $50, second year $53. I think when it comes to it, this will be taken into consideration. I think the furloughed Midwest pilots will be given seniority because it can be proven that the 190's and 170's are direct replacements of the 717's and MD-80's. The Republic first officers are dreaming if they think they will get much better than that. I'm guessing it will end up being about a 3-1 ration. 3 Republic pilots for every 1 Midwest pilot. Frontier hasn't been bought yet. We'll see what happens there. This merger is uncharted territory. As far as who bought who, it doesn't matter in merging pilots. See Delta/NWA or USAirways,America West. The only thing brought into consideration is career expectations. The Midwest pilots never had career expectations making as little as a Republic first officer from day 1.

Good luck with that.

Furloughees at ANY airline in ANY merger have never fared very well...

Just a little historical perspective, from someone who doesn't have a dog in the fight but understands what has happened in past seniority integrations...

 

[hockeypilot44]

Good luck with that.

Furloughees at ANY airline in ANY merger have never fared very well...

Just a little historical perspective, from someone who doesn't have a dog in the fight but understands what has happened in past seniority integrations...

You're probably right. I don't work for either company. I was just giving what I think is fair as an outsider.

 

[trainer8]

1800 "furloughed US Airways pilots" (over 300 were active pilots, but were thrown under the bus by the LCC MEC) were stapled to the bottom of the arbitrated decision by NMB arbiter George Nicolau.

Precedent has been set.

T8

 

[hockeypilot44]

1800 "furloughed US Airways pilots" (over 300 were active pilots, but were thrown under the bus by the LCC MEC) were stapled to the bottom of the arbitrated decision by NMB arbiter George Nicolau.

Precedent has been set.

T8

Those were two comparable companies. I wouldn't call that precedent in this case.

 

[hockeypilot44]

1800 "furloughed US Airways pilots" (over 300 were active pilots, but were thrown under the bus by the LCC MEC) were stapled to the bottom of the arbitrated decision by NMB arbiter George Nicolau.

Precedent has been set.

T8

Those were two comparable companies. I wouldn't call that precedent in this case. Were you at Republic when furloughed US Airways first officers were hired at Republic as captains aka jets for jobs? This agreement was made because the Republic aircraft were directly replacing the US Airways aircraft. This is a unique situation.

 

[Fubijaakr]

hockey,

You need to read up on history. Furloughed pilots NEVER get integrated because they don't bring a job to the Seniority list. The always get stapled. You know that.

 

[trainer8]

Those were two comparable companies. I wouldn't call that precedent in this case. Were you at Republic when furloughed US Airways first officers were hired at Republic as captains aka jets for jobs? This agreement was made because the Republic aircraft were directly replacing the US Airways aircraft. This is a unique situation.

First, precedent doesn care about what you or I think is comparable or fair. Precedent is a part of current law and what attorney's establish their cases on. ALG/ Mohawk of the RLA are the governing issues regarding seniority integration. ALPA Merger Policy governs it it the parties are both ALPA. Nicolau is what happens when parties can't agree on union policy. His award sets precedent as to what can happen and also establishes a template for future disputes.

Second, the companies (LCC/AWA) were not comparable in the context of pilot seniority, which is the context of your comment. Thus, the seniority dispute. Neither are RAH and Midwest.

Third, in 2005, the US Airways FOs who jumped ship early (four of them) are the only ones who were hired as captains at Republic. They were "branded" and ostracised for jumping seniority over pilots that were 15 years senior to them. They were warned not to jump seniority. A couple never went back to Airways because of it. Two did, and, from what I hear, things are difficult for them. The rest of the FOs transfered in seniority order and upgraded based on their J4J DOH.

I'm not sure what you point is regarding the J4J protocol. J4J was a negotiated agreement between ALPA and the IBT. It has nothing to do with merger and aquisition aspects of seniority integration.

T8

 

[aewanabe]

RAH CA pay is 50/53 only on the E140, which is a fraction of the non-Ejet fleet, but you knew that right HP? My friends remaining at RAH are arguing for a ratioed integration with fences, but how do you fence a jet that's going away (the 717)?

 

[eaglesview]

hockey,

You need to read up on history. Furloughed pilots NEVER get integrated because they don't bring a job to the Seniority list. The always get stapled. You know that.

A habit pattern that needs to be changed. Rediculus mentality where a pilot with ten or so years of service but just happens to be furloughed the day they "snap that picture" goes to the bottom.

 

[TWA Dude]

Second, the companies (LCC/AWA) were not comparable in the context of pilot seniority, which is the context of your comment.

Incorrect. AWA had senior pilots and junior pilots. US Airways also had senior pilots and junior pilots. That's perfect compatibility. You wanted the AWA pilots made more junior and we wanted each groups relative seniority to remain roughly the same. Arbitrator Nicolau (and subsequently the NW/DL arbitrators) agreed.

Once again you confuse seniority with longevity. Since the judge and jury proved we were right I guess it really doesn't matter anymore whether you understand the distinction. Keep on whining how wronged you feel you were if it makes you feel better.

 

[trainer8]

Incorrect. AWA had senior pilots and junior pilots. US Airways also had senior pilots and junior pilots. That's perfect compatibility. You wanted the AWA pilots made more junior and we wanted each groups relative seniority to remain roughly the same. Arbitrator Nicolau (and subsequently the NW/DL arbitrators) agreed.

Once again you confuse seniority with longevity. Since the judge and jury proved we were right I guess it really doesn't matter anymore whether you understand the distinction. Keep on whining how wronged you feel you were if it makes you feel better.

"Dude" :

Thanks. I guess that is the dispute, isn't it. I could clarify it better. And yes, the judge has ruled for the AWA pilot group. Seniority or longevity, precedent takes place. And that is what will happen on the integration at Republic and Midwest. Also, seems to me the furloughees got stapled to the bottom if I read Nicolau correctly. So, I anticipate precedant will take place in this integration as well.

Precedent...(by the way, that's the thread topic).

For the record, congrats on your court win. I don't work there, anymore; been gone for almost 4 years now.

I'll side step your personal jabs and bitterness and not give the dignity of a professional response. I have no "dog in your fight."


T8

 

[Full of LUV]

Shoulda walked away....

Wow. I didn't realize they were going to staple the furloughed Midwest pilots. The truth is Midwest was not bankrupt, never went bankrupt, and probably would not have gone bankrupt (the last one is debatable, can't be proven either way). The Midwest pilots are being replaced by Republic pilots to attack labor. I personally think if it ever goes to arbitration, there will be a ratio merger with the Republic captains. I think the most junior Midwest pilot will be senior to the most junior Republic captain. First year Midwest pay is $41, second year $58. First year Republic captain $50, second year $53. I think when it comes to it, this will be taken into consideration. I think the furloughed Midwest pilots will be given seniority because it can be proven that the 190's and 170's are direct replacements of the 717's and MD-80's. The Republic first officers are dreaming if they think they will get much better than that. I'm guessing it will end up being about a 3-1 ration. 3 Republic pilots for every 1 Midwest pilot. Frontier hasn't been bought yet. We'll see what happens there. This merger is uncharted territory. As far as who bought who, it doesn't matter in merging pilots. See Delta/NWA or USAirways,America West. The only thing brought into consideration is career expectations. The Midwest pilots never had career expectations making as little as a Republic first officer from day 1.

Midwest pilots should have shut the place down, strike, work stoppage, whatever the day the first replacement jet arrived. They facilitated their smooth transition to eventual job loss.

 

[CitationLover]

Midwest pilots should have shut the place down, strike, work stoppage, whatever the day the first replacement jet arrived. They facilitated their smooth transition to eventual job loss.

When you can explain how we could have done that legally, then you can speak. Midwest pilots held the line and balked at the salary demanded concessions of management and still do to this day.