RAH buys Midwest!!!

[Indy319FA]

Going up against United and SWA in major markets= BK down the road for Republic.....

STUPID.

Who says these aircraft/bases have to stay where they are? Last time I checked you can move these things around. You guys are a trip. If you really think Bedford will leave these assets where they are going to lose money then you are foolish. Also, (and I say this with sadness in my heart) from a pure business perspective, UAL is getting weaker and weaker. If they go back into bankruptcy, then it will not be as pleasant as the last time around. SWA is a different matter, however.

My guess is he will slowly shift these aircraft and assets to areas that are more lucrative when the dust settles.

 

[contrail67]

and now Bedford has Republic in a HUGE amount of debt...I would not be too cheerful about this at all. Anytime a regional has done this in the past...and tried to go against a Major airline, the regional has been silenced.....and eliminated.

 

[MINIME]

I don't blame pilots for strategic business decisions CEOs make. The RAH pilots didn't write the check. I doubt Bedford asked them for their opinion.

That being said, they may now have been handed an opportunity to uphold this profession or to further contribute to its deterioration. How? By not getting wide-eyed over the prospect of flying bigger airframes at the expense of those currently flying them.

Sooner rather than later, most of you will have a chance to voice your opinions via a vote, as to how the compensation on larger airframes should be set. Oh yeah...it's coming. I hope that most of you, if not all of you, will vote to keep the payscales where they are or to actually improve them.

I hope you guys don't chase the carrots. Your decisions will have a huge impact on this industry. May I suggest you start by looking at the new Jetblue 190 and Airbus payscales.

 

[Lone Star]

RAH pilots are high fiving each other now ( not exacly sure why--- they just get more planes to fly at disgusting wages for the rest of their careers. )

.... Bedford, is starting a new airline ( after all the RAH feed contracts are cancelled ) that will fail miserably.....Indy Air II....

How are the RAH pilots not taking jobs from other pilots?? The are replacing pilots with their HORRIBLE pay.... wow.... WOW!

I will be happy to see that place fail in a few years, thats for sure.

I'll be sure and save this post for my 14 month old to read some day, and tell him that somebody wished his dad would not have a job so I couldn't put dinner on the table for him to eat. Real classy man. Nobody is over here high fiving. We didn't know anything about this until we saw it on the internet. So in your opinion we at RAH should all quit our jobs to make things right.

 

[Browntothebone]

I don't blame pilots for strategic business decisions CEOs make. The RAH pilots didn't write the check. I doubt Bedford asked them for their opinion.

That being said, they may now have been handed an opportunity to uphold this profession or to further contribute to its deterioration. How? By not getting wide-eyed over the prospect of flying bigger airframes at the expense of those currently flying them.

Sooner rather than later, most of you will have a chance to voice your opinions via a vote, as to how the compensation on larger airframes should be set. Oh yeah...it's coming. I hope that most of you, if not all of you, will vote to keep the payscales where they are or to actually improve them.

I hope you guys don't chase the carrots. Your decisions will have a huge impact on this industry. May I suggest you start by looking at the new Jetblue 190 and Airbus payscales.

Just to play devils advocate. If the RAH pilots were to get to fly the Airbus A-320s they bought from Frontier, irregardless of how much they got paid, just think what a huge leg up it would give them when the majors and legacies start to hire again, compared to the hordes of regional pilots with just RJ time, they would have RJ time PLUS time in a true mainline jet and would be much more competative when legacy hiring resumes.

 

[climbhappy]

6 mill in cash and a 25 million note to be coverted to commom at 10/share is a fire sale if there ever was one. basically they bought for 6 mil in cash and promise of future shareholder value...always subject to change. they're some shrewd ba$tards... yes they are.

 

[jmreii]

Just to play devils advocate. If the RAH pilots were to get to fly the Airbus A-320s they bought from Frontier, irregardless of how much they got paid, just think what a huge leg up it would give them when the majors and legacies start to hire again, compared to the hordes of regional pilots with just RJ time, they would have RJ time PLUS time in a true mainline jet and would be much more competative when legacy hiring resumes.

Just remember that some of the hiring airlines (pilots) will have awful long memories when it comes to hiring someone. You always remember who screwed you over. Example; Continental's scab situation goes back 26 or 27 years and the memories are like it was yesterday.

 

[Cornelius]

Indy319FA, can you quit posting because it is irritating to everybody.

 

[MINIME]

Just to play devils advocate. If the RAH pilots were to get to fly the Airbus A-320s they bought from Frontier, irregardless of how much they got paid, just think what a huge leg up it would give them when the majors and legacies start to hire again, compared to the hordes of regional pilots with just RJ time, they would have RJ time PLUS time in a true mainline jet and would be much more competative when legacy hiring resumes.

Well, if they do the smart thing with what they can control, payscales, QOL issues, many of them won't have to look for another job. Many of them will eventually flow up to a Major job. In that scenerio, fate will have been good to them. I can't blame them for that.

On the other hand, if they help bring Frontier payscales (and other Majors for that fact) and QOL to the Regional level, they won't have many places to look for a good job. This will become a wave that will be hard to control. Very few if any, new jobs will be created at a well paying Major or Legacy carrier. Whoever is at a Major, will be lucky to remain there. For those trying to get there, it may never happen. It's that simple.

 

[SWA/FO]

Guess the Midwest Airlines share holders are happy they voted down the Air Tran purchase. What was that for $16.50 a share? Something like 400 million?

WOW! I thought SWA was going after Midwest.

 

[Lear70]

On the other hand, if they help bring Frontier payscales (and other Majors for that fact) and QOL to the Regional level, they won't have many places to look for a good job. This will become a wave that will be hard to control. Very few if any, new jobs will be created at a well paying Major or Legacy carrier. Whoever is at a Major, will be lucky to remain there. For those trying to get there, it may never happen. It's that simple.

It's been moving that way for over a decade.

Hard to develop a real strategy against it when the game keeps changing like this and the pilots themselves won't stop undercutting each other for their new brass ring. It's human nature, and I understand it, but it's got to stop.

And no, I don't mean for RAH pilots to "fall on their swords" and quit their jobs over it, but when it comes time to negotiate a new RAH pay rate for the larger frames, you hold the line, and don't throw the minority vote (Frontier pilots) under the bus for your shot to fly said bus (no pun intended). Hold the line on the higher pay that you, someday, will enjoy, and raise your own RJ rates while you're at it.

Bring yourselves up, everyone comes with you. Negotiate those wages down, and not only will there be nowhere to go, but EVERY, SINGLE other pilot who has to contend with yet another low pay rate dragging down the average in "pattern bargaining" will be waiting for you to come interview should RAH ever furlough again... so they can smile, look at you, and say "Wow, those pay rates are low. Thanks for that. And thanks for interviewing today, have a nice trip home".

 

[Newf Dog]

"Continental's scab situation goes back 26 or 27 years...and the memories are like it was yesterday."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You know what memories are like it was yesterday? ALPA national welcoming all those SCABS at Continental back into the fold. Give me a freakin' break!!!!!

Oh but wait...you must believe that "we're takin' it back."

And while I'm being a horse's rear end, please, for the last time, "irregardless" IS NOT A WORD.

And there's no such thing as a "mute point," unless of course it's a point that nobody hears you say because you can't speak.

 

[instructordude]

and now Bedford has Republic in a HUGE amount of debt...I would not be too cheerful about this at all. Anytime a regional has done this in the past...and tried to go against a Major airline, the regional has been silenced.....and eliminated.

I would not bet against Bedford. Never.

 

[motch]

Expect to see the Majors cancel their feed agreement with RAH ala Indy Air...

 

[trainer8]

I don't blame pilots for strategic business decisions CEOs make. The RAH pilots didn't write the check. I doubt Bedford asked them for their opinion.

That being said, they may now have been handed an opportunity to uphold this profession or to further contribute to its deterioration. How? By not getting wide-eyed over the prospect of flying bigger airframes at the expense of those currently flying them.

Sooner rather than later, most of you will have a chance to voice your opinions via a vote, as to how the compensation on larger airframes should be set. Oh yeah...it's coming. I hope that most of you, if not all of you, will vote to keep the payscales where they are or to actually improve them.

I hope you guys don't chase the carrots. Your decisions will have a huge impact on this industry. May I suggest you start by looking at the new Jetblue 190 and Airbus payscales.

Thank you Capt. Obvious.....

 

[MATHEWS]

To Motch and the rest of you guys that think the majors are going to cancel their agreements over this; what part of separate certificates don't you get?? It has been repeated over and over and over again that Indy Air had one certificate and that RAH has put themselves in a completely different situation with it's now 5 certificates, 6 if you count the Hawaiian operation. You really think Mr. Bedford is that dumb to cut off the hand that feeds him??

 

[CitationLover]

To Motch and the rest of you guys that think the majors are going to cancel their agreements over this; what part of separate certificates don't you get?? It has been repeated over and over and over again that Indy Air had one certificate and that RAH has put themselves in a completely different situation with it's now 5 certificates, 6 if you count the Hawaiian operation. You really think Mr. Bedford is that dumb to cut off the hand that feeds him??

The points they are making though, is the other operators might not want to "subsidize" the Republic 190 operation. Which is in effect what they would be doing.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Well you know w/ contracts open at AMR, CAL, SWA, and UAL one would think SOMEBODY would stop feeding these PARASITES.

 

[Indy319FA]

The points they are making though, is the other operators might not want to "subsidize" the Republic 190 operation. Which is in effect what they would be doing.

The point they are missing, though, is it is all about what is in the contracts. What they want has nothing to do with it. It is what the contracts require them to do. Its the same with the employees. There are many here who are ex Indy Air, US Airways, and even a few ex TWA people. Most of us do not relish what has happened at Midwest or Frontier because we have been there before. The people who are "high fiving" are in the distinct minority and very immature. But our contracts require us to show up and do our jobs every day. What we want has nothing to do with what the company does.

I'm not a Bedford fan. But you have to give him credit. He has played this masterfully. Bedford has maneuvered this situation to his advantage. The companies we provide lift for cannot cancel these contracts without large termination fees and terms that will be advantageous to Republic. The employees will be over a barrel in terms of contract negotiations due to the economy, which will do nothing but get worse for the next year or two.

As I said earlier, good luck to us all. This is going to create challenges for every employee group involved. Hopefully we can all work together in the end to get improved contracts for us all, whether it be under ALPA/AFA or the Teamsters.

 

[MATHEWS]

The points they are making though, is the other operators might not want to "subsidize" the Republic 190 operation. Which is in effect what they would be doing.

I understand this. The point I am making though is that Bedford would never jeopardize these contracts that "subsidize" his big ideas. This man is smart enough to assure that none of these contracts would stop paying if he went and bought two other airlines. End of story.

 

[lookin4better]

Thats just their point..... UAL/DAL are and will be " subsidising " Bedfords little dream of an airline and I am sure they dont like it.

Regardless of the certificate shuffle being performed..... they ( the airlines using RAH as feed ) can use any just cause they want to cancel the contracts.... and " subsidising " Rev Bedfords new airline ( competition for them ) seems like legal enough reason to cancel any current contrats. Just because he hides it under one certificate and funds it with someone elses money doesnt mean UAL and DAL cant cancel with cause.

If they have to pay a small penalty to starve their new competition..... Im sure its a small price to pay..... Bedford isnt the only one with " business smarts "

 

[lookin4better]

Expect to see the Majors cancel their feed agreement with RAH ala Indy Air...

Agreed.... the majors can use the excuse of not wanting to fund the little parasite of an airline, Bedford is starting. Doesnt matter of how he hides it in certificates..... EVEN if they have to pay a hefty fine... It will be worth every dime to them to cut off funding their compitition. I am sure the 5/6 certificates dont scare anyone.

 

[Indy319FA]

Just because he hides it under one certificate and funds it with someone elses money doesnt mean UAL and DAL cant cancel with cause.

This was settled long ago in the dispute RAH had with American and APA. APA was fining CHQ $30,000 a day when the 170s were on CHQs certificate. The fines ended the day the 170s went on the Shuttle certificate. Until the language in these contracts are changed, each certificate is seen contractually as a seperate airline. Even the FAA treats each one as a seperate airline.

If they have to pay a small penalty to starve their new competition

The penalty would not be small. To cancel a contract without proper cause would likely result in payment of the full terms of the contract. I.E Republic would be paid the full value of the contract, and be able to stick the airline that cancels the contract with the leases for aircraft that Republic no longer wants. I doubt any of the majors in their present financial condition can afford this, nor would their shareholders consider this to be a smart financial move. The best course to take would be to refuse to renew the contracts when they expire, or cancel them in bankruptcy if any majors return to bankruptcy court.

 

[JumpCaptain]

However, if you think this is going to implode like Indy Air, you are going to be severely dissappointed. In terms of business smarts, Skeen and Moore couldn't come close to hanging with Bedford on one of his worst days.

Yea, he's arguably the smartest Airline CEO currently working, but will that be enough?

Questionable.

 

[GuppyWN]

So now all SWA has to do is to buy Republic.

Are you nucking futs?

Gup

 

[Propsync]

The points they are making though, is the other operators might not want to "subsidize" the Republic 190 operation. Which is in effect what they would be doing.

I think they do. The majors are really trying to go all RJ under 120 seats. It may take another round of CH. 13's to realize, but I bet they don't touch RP for the turnkey value of a fleet of 100 seaters. As soon as one breaks, Midwest is done and 190's or whatever else is lying around gets painted to a major color of your choice. The majors, like AA, don't have the money to replace 200 and some MD-80's. AA is not going to just give up, either. They will get scope. I also won't be shocked if VA and JB end up in this as well. Reminds me of Lorenzo's moves back in the 80's: growth thru debt.

 

[Flying the Line]

So if UAL, DAL, ect. cancel the contracts with RAH then UAL, DAL will be stuck with the lease payments on the EMB's? I bet big money that Skywest or others right now are writing training manuels, ect. Then UAL, DAL, ect. still has the feed and RAH is out of money makers.

 

[MINIME]

Thank you Capt. Obvious.....

You're welcome.

It should be Obvious to someone like you, with what appears to be plenty of time in this industry, that pilots have been known to suffer from brain shrinkage when "reward now-pay later" carrots are dangled in front of us. History does not lie.

Maybe it's apparent to everyone but myself, that RAH pilots will not be tempted by management to steamroll the minority pilots (Frontier). In the interest of the profession, ALL the RAH guys will automatically do the right thing and stand up to their management. Management will instantly cease and desist and do what's right for all the pilots. I'm not trying to belittle any pilot group here. Simply, too many times in the past human nature has prevailed, leaving us with some precarious positions.

You are correct, all this should be obvious. If it turns out that my rant is unfounded, I'll be glad to recant my opinions. But for now, history tells me to be afraid, very afraid.

 

[bvt1151]

Having worked at both places, the simliarity ends with the fact that both of these are regional airlines. Love him or hate him, Bedford has been smarter than Kerry Skeen in setting this up. Bedford will be able to keep his revenue flow while building his new airline because of the multiple certificates. Republic's mainline partners can cancel the contracts, but it will cost a lot of money and they will be stuck with the aircraft Bedford doesn't want. Also he will be able to use the middle management expertise at Midwest and Frontier to build this new company.

As far as Bedford goes, I respect his ability as a hard as nuts businessman, but the way Republic treats its employees leaves a lot to be desired. However, if you think this is going to implode like Indy Air, you are going to be severely dissappointed. In terms of business smarts, Skeen and Moore couldn't come close to hanging with Bedford on one of his worst days.

Bedford may have been good when pitted up against the likes of other regionals, but now he has a nice little problem in MKE and DEN called SWA. Bedford vs. SWA? I choose SWA.

The only thing keeping Frontier alive in DEN is their hometown status. Will that remain now that the hometown is IND? Add in to the mix that neither Midwest nor Frontier have been profitable for a very long time, and considering that nobody knows how the majors are going to respond to the announcements, Republic could find themselves with a bunch of planes and furloughs, and nowhere to fly.

Sounds like somebody got bored flying Saabs, then got bored flying ERJ's, then got bored flying EMB's. Bankruptcy is exciting, I suppose.

 

[contrail67]

Expect to see the Majors cancel their feed agreement with RAH ala Indy Air...

It will be interesting when a lawyer looks at this...I am sure there is the ability for the major airline to cancel the contract....let them cancel it. Get some mainline aircraft on those routes again!

Remember when Independence Air went up against United....They disappeared very quickly.