Radio Pet Peeves

[sabreliner]

"taking runway 32 for departure..."

Taking it where?? I need to use it too, and I doubt your airplane can carry the whole thing!!

Also, ditto on what NJA Captain had to say about uncontrolled fields. I'm usually up high until only a few miles/seconds out from the pattern, and you've been unknowingly talking all over the guy at a field 40 miles away. Also, I'm trying to monitor and talk to approach as well as my company during that time, so there's a good chance I didn't here that last call or two that you made.

On a note not really related to radios, but to uncontrolled fields-

DO NOT DO A RUNUP HOLDING SHORT BLOCKING ACCESS TO THE RUNWAY!!!!! I don't have to do one and you are in my way while I'm burning lots of gas.

 

[jsoceanlord]

i've counted some puerto rican islander pilots that annoyunce on CTAF their position in the pattern over 7 times - even if no one else is around.

 

[bobbysamd]

Transponder etiquette/procedure

You don't have to read back a transponder code. Just set it in. ATC will let you know in short order if your code is wrong.

The best advice to be given about communications is that you say more with less. For example, let's say you want VFR flight following. Once you've established contact with the facility, just provide your position and altitude and say you're "VFR to East Armpit." You don't have to say "Request flight following." ATC will know what you want. It will assign a code if it can work you; you set the code in your transponder, and you're set. Transaction completed.

Good discussion, by the way.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

I cannot stand that "taking the active" at an uncontrolled airport... or whats even better is when they put a ZERO in from the of the runway number....
Spruce Creek traffice N12345 is taking the active zero-five......

The other one is "Roger That".

Funny one i heard today was here in BDL... it was snowing and about 2300RVR... you had a United, Delta, and Southwest at the end of the runway asking how much snow was on the runway, was it contamminated and blah blah blah... controller comes back to the Delta and told him to move out of the way because he had a Starcheck that wants to take off!

 

[skydiverdriver]

Some airports use Dixie instead of Delta, specifically Delta Airline's hubs, since that causes some confusion.

One complaint for the ATC guy, why do some smaller airports give the atis at such a fast pace? Don't they know we are trying to get the info 100 miles out over a radio, in a loud aircraft? Pleasee slow down. Sometimes it takes three times to hear everything, and we are busy up there!!

I like it when the guy is fourth in line for the runway, and he says Cessna 1234 ready to depart, in sequence. No kidding.

Bobby, I heard a controller get very upset at an airliner for not reading back the transponder code. I don't know why it bothered him, but I would suggest you read it back.

Good thread guys!

 

[Typhoon1244]

One complaint for the ATC guy, why do some smaller airports give the atis at such a fast pace? Don't they know we are trying to get the info 100 miles out over a radio, in a loud aircraft? Pleasee slow down.

I once got a clearance read to me by a controller at Lawton, Okla., at about thirty words per second. Fortunately I'd flown back and forth between DFW and LAW about a hundred times, my hand was warmed up enough to copy down all the numbers, and I was having an unulusally limber-tongued day. I managed to read-back the clearance at pace equal to, if not faster, than the one she used.

Guess what? She had to call me back and say, "I'm sorry, I didn't get any of your read back. You talk awful fast!" When I told her I was just trying to match her pace, she laughed and apologized, saying "we get so used to reading the same thing over and over that I guess sometimes we don't know how fast we're going."

I think that's the key: a lot of ATC guys are not really testing to see how fast you can listen. It's just a matter of habit.

Oh, speaking of talking fast, a suggestion for you "younger" guys: when you're at a big metropolitan airport during rush hour, and there're about eighty airplanes all trying to get clearances at the same time, call for your clearance at a slow relaxed pace and give your destination last. Usually the first part of your transmission will be blocked by the other seventy-nine guys, but clearance delivery will get the destination and call you back.

You: "zsdkjbasdflkawhrkawb--formation quebec to Saint Louis."

Cl. Del.: "Several calling at once...who's that going to Saint Louis?"

You: [Yes! Works every time!]

 

[Patriot328]

Some really good comments in here!

I have to agree with the fast ATIS. There's some guy down in CAE that has determined to make it his goal in life that pilots listen to the ATIS 4 times in order to write it down.

Speaking of 9-er, anyone know that guy down in RDU that is the nine-ER king? I mean, I'm all for standard radio pharsology, but the guy overdoes it.

Regarding the with you, I can honestly say I never use that phrase on the radio. I was cured of that when getting my multi with Don Lauderdale back at Riddle. He told me every time I used "with you" on the radio I would lose an engine.

First take off in the king air, switching to departure, I said "with you".. *slam* left engine failure... c'mon I have 25 seconds of flight time in the thing! Following week, I was doing a single engine NDB and checked in with tower using a "with you" and *blam*, lost the "good" engine... He was nice enough to give me it back, though...


I don't mind good bye, good days, cyas, take care, etc, as long as it's short and the radio isn't too busy. We are, afterall, talking to human beings down there in those deep, dark dungens of misery called ARTCCs..



Patriot

 

[whereamI]

Whispering Willie!

Anybody flying down in Tuscon every hear this guy on the radio. LOL, this guy will crack you up if you hear him. Using the correct phonetic pronunciation is one thing, but this guy is hilarious.

 

[avbug]

Bobb,

At LAX, where the radio gets a tad busy at times, when picking up a clearance, all ATC wants to hear is your callsign and transponder code. It's assumed you got everything else.

One thing you definitely do want to read back is the transponder code. Sure, ATC may see the code come up on the screen, but suppose someone else put it there, or dialed it in by mistake? Include the xpdr code when reading back, if time and frequency congestion will allow.

As for arriving in a blessed jet at 250 knots to an uncontrolled field...try monitoring local on the second radio on the way in. There is no need to ask any inbound traffic to advise. It's the lazy man's way of getting things done and is too self-presumptuous.

How far out do you copy ATIS and prepare to land? I always have it copied by 50 nm from the destination, and if it hasn't been completed, the in-range/approach checks are completed by this point. Certainly now that the backup radio is done with ATIS and any company-related calls should be complete, monitoring unicom or CTAF for an uncontrolled field isn't such a big chore, is it??

Throw it on the backup, and have the second pilot listen. You can even make a call or two as you come in, before switching over.

Most ag airplanes have aircraft radios, by the way. When I started in them, we had CB's and no aircraft radios...but in Western Kansas, it didn't matter a whole heck of a lot. Come to think of it, it doesn't matter a whole heck of a lot anywhere.

Strangely, that's why God gave us eyeballs, and the FAA likes to know about them every six months.

All except for those who think their TCAS and radio adressses the need for them. Sad. Dangerous, too.

 

[NJA Capt]

As for arriving in a blessed jet at 250 knots to an uncontrolled field...try monitoring local on the second radio on the way in. There is no need to ask any inbound traffic to advise. It's the lazy man's way of getting things done and is too self-presumptuous.

Perhaps you missed where I said we try to listen on the second radio, but 20 people are usually stepping all over each other and sometimes it's not possible to hear "your" traffic reports. It not unusual to come to an uncontrolled field, with an inbound commuter and local traffic in the pattern. We are trying to judge who is where and how to fall in line. It has nothing to do with being lazy.


What if a person's #2 radio is MEL'd?

OR

What if the guy is single pilot in a jet? Talking to ATC and running checklists? (Get used to that one Eclipse fans)

OR

What if someone stepped on YOUR traffic report?

OR

Who is listening to #2 when 1 pilot is flying and talking to ATC and the other is running a checklist?

OR

Maybe you just forgot to call downwind "once" when we WERE listening? (That's never happened has it? [sarcasm])

It sounds more like the people training in the pattern are the ones that are lazy. Students are practicing radio use aren't they?
Just so I understand. You want two guys in a jet talking to ATC, listening to your advisories, running checklists, configuring to land while slowing down. While one/two guys sit quiet in a C152?

It's just like showing up after a game has started and asking, "what'd I miss?" We get transferred over to unicom at the last minute and we would like to know "what we missed."

It's real simple. Just answer the question when asked.

 

[abenaki]

Reagrding asking "other traffic in the area of an uncontrolled airport to advise"...

The Citation X, as well as other jets have absolutely LOUSY visibility when it comes to spotting traffic. I will ask others in the area every time to "advise" me so I can try to avoid making a big pile of metal on the ground. The differing approach speeds and subsequent size of the patterns flown coupled with the lousy vis out the front of a jet makes it mandatory from my point of view to utilize every available tool.

Now, most astute private pilots will understand that you're honking along in your jet at probably twice their pattern speeds and will not be flying the same size pattern as they are. Letting you know where they are gives you a picture of what's going on at the field so you can plan your pattern and approach accordingly. Presumptuous or not, it's a good idea.

Additionally, the CVR will be recording your requests for "advise" and might keep your butt out of trouble, should, heaven forbid, an incident or accident occur.......At least you were trying to get information out of the traffic in the area.....


Also, while I think we all try to adhere to proper radio phraseology, especially in busy areas, I think it's be d'ed boring out there without some of the more entertaining and humurous phrases that I've heard. As long as the message gets communicated and doesn't interfere with what's going on, a little fun isn't going to hurt anyone.......Sometimes a good laugh on the radio is a good thing!

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

4fanman and Typhoon 1244,

"Clearance on request" is an Air Force thing, but like everything else in the Air Force, it doesn't make any sense.

 

[boxcar]

"When I fly six or seven legs a day I don't care if I follow the AIM exactly by the book. I pride myself on being a laid back pilot and not some uptight flying bible thumper."


Uptight bible thumper?? Are you being dismissive of religious pilots, or is your slur intended for those who follow AIM comm procedures?

 

[TheBeaver]

How about these guys that change their voice when they transmit on the radio. One second I am flying with a normal pilot then the next minute he is talking to ATC with a "West-Virginia Hill-Jack" accent.

One guy I flew with keyed the mike and talked with a Southern accent, but I knew he was from Ohio. I checked the RMI to see if he was in the southern half of the cockpit.

I instructed a guy who had a normal voice, but when he keyed the mike he turned into Darth Vader. The first few times he answered ATC, I thought another aircraft answered our ATC call.

Additionally, I've heard pilots apparently convert from Jewish to Irish-Catholic just by changing from New York to Boston Center. What is with this?

I have my own story though: I pulled up to the drive-through window at McDonald’s and wasn’t sure what I wanted. I tentatively asked for a value meal and the employee responded with “Yes, ma’am, please pull forward”. Seriously embarrassed, I cleared my throat and responded with “Thank you” in the lowest octave available. As we drove to the window, my girlfriend laughed so hard she lost a contact.

 

[MLS]

boxcar,

All I'm saying is I have flown with people that are to much by the book (AIM, FOM, ect). They have very little practical experience so if it's not in the book (AIM, FOM, ect.) they have no clue what to do.

The AIM is not a regulatory book, although it has procedures that must be followed in order to keep people on the same page sort of speak, but take it for what it is. FARs would never regulate what you say or don't say on the radio.

Yes there are radio calls I have to laugh at periodically but I find it entertaining and certainly wouldn't lose sleep over what they said whether it was inline with the AIM or not.

No my post was not derogatory to religion just don't care for people pushing the AIM way as the only way.

 

[Anne]

Our little airstrip is too small for jets; we have no jet traffic blasting in at 250 knots. It is all single engine aircraft. I truly have never heard everyone in the pattern and area pipe up and say where they were at the request of someone saying please advise. So at best, you might hear a couple people, but you might also get a false sense of security. Look AND listen.

 

[KigAir]

Out of SFO more than anywhere else....

United 1 to Sierra dep...Aloha

United 2 to Sierra dep...Konichiwa

Speedbird 345 to Sierra Departure...Arouvoi

American 544 to Sierra Departure...Adios


Ok...I know ya'll are cool guys, but please don't give us some lame sendoff just becasue you fly internationally!!!

Squeeze Pilot
Mookie

I once heard a JAX Approach Controller handing traffic off in this fashion. I thought it was quite entertaining.

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

I get a kick out of these almighty jet pilots trying to convince everyone to conform to them because after all, they are "blasting in" at 250 knots. I wonder if they ever consider SLOWING THE F*CK DOWN!!!! Or better yet, they are going into a VFR uncontrolled pattern, so cancel AND slow down. Then maybe, just maybe, you can switch to unicom before you are "right over the airport."

Just because you can legally fly at 250 knots doesn't mean you have to, nor do you have to be IFR just because you have an instrument rating. I'd bet it isn't hard to fly a Citation at 200 or....gasp...even slower and it probably doesn't spontaneously combust if it isn't IFR.

So now that that's out of the way, if there are 8 airplanes in a pattern and "Almighty Jet Pilot" says "all traffic, please advise" and by some miracle of nature, all 8 decide to respond, they would be stepping all over each other and Mr. Almighty would not have any more SA than he did before he asked the question. So tell me, how exactly are these pilots suppossed to respond to you? Maybe the first in line for landing could be first and then the second and then the third and so on. How does that sound? Or maybe a high SA CFI could advise Mr. Almighty, "go to the water tower and hold until you get enough SA to enter the pattern."

 

[ksu_aviator]

"The best advice to be given about communications is that you say more with less. For example, let's say you want VFR flight following. Once you've established contact with the facility, just provide your position and altitude and say you're "VFR to East Armpit." You don't have to say "Request flight following." ATC will know what you want. It will assign a code if it can work you; you set the code in your transponder, and you're set. Transaction completed."

Both of these are short cuts and aren't good. Especially the transponder bit. Can you imagine just climbing to 10K without talking to ATC, yeah they cleared you and they know, but you still have to read it back, just in case you thought they said 15K. Don't take short cuts.

"I have to agree with the fast ATIS. There's some guy down in CAE that has determined to make it his goal in life that pilots listen to the ATIS 4 times in order to write it down."

Fast ATIS may come from a tower manned by one person trying to lay down the ATIS while he/she has 4 or 5 cessnas doing touch and go's.

With regards to listening to uncotrolled requencies...Mesaba flies a lot of very short routes. MSP to STC and TUP to GTR come to mind. 15 minutes or less. In that time the PNF will contact ATC, then ops for the airport deprated, get ATIS/ASOS, contact ops for the airport landing, do the after t/o checks, 10K flow, cruise checks, descent checks, approach checks and then, if they have time they'll dial in the uncontrolled frequency and listen. Don't assume just because the airplane looks effortless from the outside that the cockpit isn't very busy. And if someone asks, take a second to advise, its good technique and helps keep everyone safe. And always watch for aircraft, even IFR.

My pet peeve is changing frequencies and then keying the mic before you even have a chance to hear if any other transmitions are going on.

And BTW, Mesaba doesn't like being called Flagship either, no disrespect, just not cool.

 

[DJS]

Peeves

I'm a low hour pilot, sputtering around in a rental 172, but I do

1. Respond if someone asks for a traffic advisory. If someone is either (a) clueless or (b) coming in too fast to listen, I'd like them to know there are others (me!) in the pattern.

2. Try to make all my calls as short as possible.

But my own pet peeve is really nothing more than jealousy:

I really hate it when I overhear ATC instructing some jet to slow down to more than twice as fast as my pokey little plane will go. Sigh...

...Dave

 

[414Flyer]

At some uncontrolled fields, there might be traffic with no radio, such as crop dusters or ultra lights, that you might not hear on the radio, but unicom or other traffic might be able to give you a heads up on it.

I do not do it usually, but I can not really fault someone else for doing it, especially at fields that have a lot of the above kind of traffic. I do not see it as lazy, unless someone is using that in place of their eyes. But face it, you always have about how many other tasks going on at the same time? Every little bit of info helps.

If eyes were foolproof and always good enough, maybe we would not need things like TCAS. But well, sometimes things happen. It is not always an ideal world we live in.


What my pet peeves are

People using the "active" at an uncontrolled field

"Tally ho" and "No joy" Maybe it is proper military prodecures, but it sounds irredeemibly dorky from someone in a C-172. And its not the freaking Battle of Britain either.

"I am taking the runway for departure". Okay, where are you taking it to?

"I am WITH YOU", when talking to ATC. Well gee, who else are you with. Not cheating on the controller are you?

 

[CCDiscoB]

Excellent posts here. I'll be making a few changes in my radio terminology.

These have already been mentioned but I'll reiterate since they're my pet peeves.

"Roger, copy" in the same sentence. Slightly redundant. As well as using the term "Roger" as affirmative.

Keying the mike and starting with the word "and..."

 

[JJJ]

And BTW, Mesaba doesn't like being called Flagship either, no disrespect, just not cool.

Why isn't it cool? We got called Mesaba when we came to MSP last year. If you're flying a Saab in the south with a NW paint scheme on it. You are going to get called Flagship for a while.

I think it's entertaining when ATC mixes the call signs up. We have guys that look like they are going to have a heart attack when ATC calls us "Mesaba", "Challanger Jet", or "Flex Jet"

On a side note I always say "with you" upon switching to the tower or approach or a new ground freq, etc. I just don't see what the big deal is. Maybe it's not in the Pilot/Controller glossary, but it's not like we are running a CAP squadron or anything.

 

[ATCER]

Guys... this is a great thread... I have some flying time and have FAM'd a few times in the jumpseat (though not anymore... looks like the program is dead) but it has opened my eyes to how busy the crew can be... especially the props. Never rode up front in one...

I'll try and answer some questions posted:

skydiverdriver - the fast atis is most likely what someone mentioned earlier... you say the same things so many times it just spills out fast... it's done without even knowing it.

Patriot328 - You had me rolling with the comment about dark ARTCC dungeons. It's not kept too dark anymore, the DSR radar scopes are just like TV's ... we don't need total darkness. BUT ... the building is a dungeon (definition: dump). Built in 1960 or something. Actually, all of the ARTCC's in the country are from that period.

All of this still comes back to protecting yourself and safety. Remember when talking to ATC the tapes are rolling... everything you say is recorded. You step on an emergency transmission or something with "this is 123 big dawg wth ya at XXX" or something and the tapes are pulled you better believe you could be tracked down and have to answer some questions.

Also... in this post 9/11 era sloppy phraseology along with an accidental deviation off your flight plan can lead to an unplanned escort.

I don't want to sound like an alarmist but avaiation does not need anymore bad press, especially the GA guys. The powers that be are trying to kill GA, don't give them an excuse !!! You guys pay your taxes like everyone else and deserve to be able to have full unrestricted use of the system.

 

[NJA Capt]

Our little airstrip is too small for jets; we have no jet traffic blasting in at 250 knots. It is all single engine aircraft. So at best, you might hear a couple people, but you might also get a false sense of security. Look AND listen.

Point taken, but I must assume that you sometimes fly to other airports. We do look, and we do listen….when someone is willing to talk.

I get a kick out of these almighty jet pilots trying to convince everyone to conform to them because after all, they are "blasting in" at 250 knots. I wonder if they ever consider SLOWING THE F*CK DOWN!!!!

That was funny
Does anyone else see the irony here. An F16 guy telling "US" to slow down.

Just because you can legally fly at 250 knots doesn't mean you have to, nor do you have to be IFR just because you have an instrument rating. I'd bet it isn't hard to fly a Citation at 200 or....gasp...even slower and it probably doesn't spontaneously combust if it isn't IFR.

Pay attention. I said approaching the airport at 250, 30 miles away. I didn’t say we flew the pattern at 250.

And, as a matter of fact, we do have to be IFR because it is in our OPS specs.

How far out do you copy ATIS…?

100nm

Most ag airplanes have aircraft radios, by the way. When I started in ...Western Kansas, it didn't matter a whole heck of a lot. Come to think of it, it doesn't matter a whole heck of a lot anywhere.

On the other hand, most of the ag planes I have seen in the SE do not have radios and they also operate close to several class B airports.


Maybe I’m old fashioned. I never thought so many people would argue in favor of being LESS safe in an airplane.

 

[avbug]

Perhaps that 's because some of us believe that yapping too much on the radio is less safe than saying nothing at all.

The radio won't see traffic for you. Whenever I hear some hotshot call in "any inbound traffic please advise," I hear this little voice in my head crying out, "Just us guys with no radios, thanks!"

For the record, when I fly into or out of uncontrolled fields, I don't ask other traffic to do my work for me. I open my eyes, and as sucinctly put by Rush...I do slow down.

For those that do insist on asking other traffic...whatever. Whatever turns you on, whatever you think is safe. If you think saying "with you" or "and" adds too much to verbiage, compare that to "any traffic in the area please advise."

This is particularly burdensome when every five or ten minutes some new joker says the same thing. Any inbound traffic...any inbound traffic, any inbound traffic...we might as well forget making calls in the pattern and just stick to answering requests to tell someone where we are.

You're right. Many ag airplanes don't have radios (most do), and often not a lot of radio calls get made. When I'm in one, I don't do a lot of yapping...I look out the window and admire all the other pretty airplanes, flowers, big rocks, and towers. Just like I do in the jet.

So for those of us flitting around with no radios, don't get too alarmed if we don't answer you right away. There's a new movement afoot to fly around rocking our wings a lot to compensate for the lack of verbose harmony. That, and we're all going to paint our airplanes bright orange, just in case some joker plans his traffic on what he hears on request...instead of what he sees.

 

[79%N1]

I couldn't believe I heard this one......"USAIRWAYS xxx, instruments to Charlotte!!!!! No duh, US......we thought maybe you were VFR tonight up to CLT!!! Maybe we should change you from 3500 ft to a higher altitude!

I hated when I heard my new instrument students saying this, let alone a pilot at a major carrier, flying a commercial jetliner!

 

[NJA Capt]

Perhaps that 's because some of us believe that yapping too much on the radio is less safe than saying nothing at all.

The radio won't see traffic for you.

avbug, I am surprised. You usually seem to be more conservative.

You're right, it is talking too much. I think the next uncontrolled field I go into in a jet, we won't make ANY radio calls, just look out the windows for traffic, and land. Just like a CUB.

[Yes, I was being sarcastic. I will make all necessary radio calls.]

For the record when I'm flying the taildragger, I am more than happy to return the favor when someone asks where I am.

 

[whereamI]

Unscrupulous Idea!!

Oh how tempting it is to start using some of these phrases and words on the radio now. I had no idea people were so uptight about how you talk on the radio. As long as you are clearly getting your point across who cares. Next time you start losing your temper over someone saying "with you", you can wonder if it's somebody screwing with you. Happy flying all!

 

[Typhoon1244]

originally posted by avbug:
...that's why God gave us eyeballs, and the FAA likes to know about them every six months. All except for those who think their TCAS and radio adressses the need for them. Sad. Dangerous, too.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that as long as you're talking on CTAF and monitoring the TCAS you can paint over the windshield...but they are useful tools. (Not unlike myself...ba-dum-dum.) I hope you're not suggesting, however, that we'd all be safer at non-tower airports by not making any position reports!

originally posted by MLS:
When I fly six or seven legs a day I don't care if I follow the AIM exactly by the book. I pride myself on being a laid back pilot and not some uptight flying bible thumper. Maybe after all you dudes get some more experience you'll see the light too.... When all you folks get to the airlines you'll see what I mean.... No one at that level really cares

Uh, if you'll go back and look at the previous posts, you'll see that most of us that have these pet peeves are airline pilots. I expect to hear student and private pilots sounding like nimrods on the radio--present company excepted, of course--but not people in airliners.

I think you're missing the point of this thread. I'm not talking about regs., the AIM, or proper phraseology...not necessarily. As the title says, I'm talking about pet peeves. I suppose there's nothing really wrong with saying "with you," "instruments," etc. They just annoy me.

originally posted by whereamI:
Oh how tempting it is to start using some of these phrases and words on the radio now. I had no idea people were so uptight about how you talk on the radio. As long as you are clearly getting your point across who cares. Next time you start losing your temper over someone saying "with you", you can wonder if it's somebody screwing with you.

Hey, I suppose everyone has the God-given right to behave like a horse's as_. If you want to sound like a dork, that's your prerogative.

To tell you the truth, "with you" doesn't bother me that much. I've even said it myself...usually when I've forgotten the name of the facility I'm calling. But if you're ever in my cockpit and say "pos and hold," I will kick you in the butt! (Just kidding...maybe.)

Question for ATC guys: When we're flying during a holiday, it's a pleasant novelty for many of us to greet you with the traditional salutation associated with that holiday. Do you guys in the busier centers and TRACONS get tired of replying "Merry Christmas" six thousand times an hour?

Question for everybody: Who's heard the approach/departure controller in Houston who sounds exactly like Eyore (the donkey) from Winnie the Pooh? I swear, that guy always sounds like his dog just died!