R.i.p.

[bugchaser]

Easiest way I've found to demo this to students is to set up "hard deck" at say 3000 ft. Then, while at 3k, slow down as if doing a take off/departure stall. Tell them to fly a normal t.o. profile and pull the power at some point. See if they can get turned around before hitting the hard deck. If you have a gps that shows your ground track, it is easy to point out that it takes more than a 180 to get back to the runway. I still believe that the biggest contributer to these types of accidents is the urge to keep pulling when close to the ground. Very hard to push the nose over at 50 ft, unless you are comfortable at low altitudes. There is a natural instinct in all of us to pull back when the ground is coming up to meet us. It has taken me thousands of hours and many many stalls, etc. at extremely low level to get this out of my system. Most pilots are just not exposed enough to this type of thing to overcome the natural reactions.

 

[mtrv]

I still believe that the biggest contributer to these types of accidents is the urge to keep pulling when close to the ground. Very hard to push the nose over at 50 ft, unless you are comfortable at low altitudes. There is a natural instinct in all of us to pull back when the ground is coming up to meet us.

To complicate things a bit farther, I've now seen the results of two accidents, where at the last second, the pilot's gave into the instinct of full aft yoke and saved themselves as well as a passenger. One was student pilot that stalled into a tree in the middle of a crowded shopping center parking lot (out of fuel), and the other was a Cessna 310 stalling against a 45 degree mountain slope. Injuries amounted to no more than small scratches.

Of course, in both scenarios, no altitude was left for a downward spin, and both airplanes were still had flying speed until the stall. Yet, it's just two situations where pulling back, at very low altitude, did the trick.

 

[bugchaser]

Of course, in both scenarios, no altitude was left for a downward spin, and both airplanes were still had flying speed until the stall. Yet, it's just two situations where pulling back, at very low altitude, did the trick.

Of course when your about to smack the ground, you should pull back on the stick at the last second. That goes without saying. Not really what I was talking about. Sounds like in those incidents, the pilots had the presence of mind to keep the thing flying until the last instant. Very good. Many accidents have been caused by folks not having this ability.

 

[mtrv]

Of course when your about to smack the ground, you should pull back on the stick at the last second. That goes without saying. Not really what I was talking about.

No problem. I knew it wasn't what you were talking about. It's more like pushing over at 50', since it's just too high to roll over & dive into the ground & a full stall to dump airspeed at 5' ---------when you're about to clobber an obsticle.

 

[MissKittyKat]

No one likes to hear of this, let us keep the true memory alive of this 25 year old, ( too young to die) alive and well. god bless him and his familiy, sounds like he did something he loved! We all take chances everyday, life is a gift for sure.

I don't know what else to say, other than to think kindly of the deceased.


MissKittyKat

Have a nice evening

 

[Flightjock30]

You can train your students all day long, you can be a highly seasoned veteran of GA flying with 10,000+ hours, or you can be an airshow pilot capable of spectaculat manuevers. When you lose an engine immediately after takeoff at low altitude in a single it is human instinct to panic. You figure "oh lemmie turn back and land (even though you know you shouldnt) cause I do not want to collide with terrain......." In other words the intensity of the situation is what makes for instinctive reactions such as these due to panicking despite proficiency.

 

[bugchaser]

In other words the intensity of the situation is what makes for instinctive reactions such as these due to panicking despite proficiency

.

Don't know that I would agree with that statement. Experience can overcome those kind of reactions. Good training will give pilots skills to use, but experience will give them the wisdom to use those skills at the right times.

When you lose an engine immediately after takeoff at low altitude in a single it is human instinct to panic.

I hope to God that you don't really mean that. Are you an instructor? What will you do when you have an engine quite you right after lift off? I guess since its human nature, you will panic and try an ill advised turn? Pilots have engine failures all the time without freaking out and crashing. Experience gives you the ability to overcome the natural reactions and continue to fly the airplane.

When you get some experience you will understand that.

 

[Flightjock30]

When you get some experience you will understand that.

Pretty bold statement there....I have over 1,000 hours of dual given (not to say Im experienced, but Im not inexperienced). I have not updated my profile so stop assuming. In addition just because you panic does not mean you will act irrationally or instinctively. When I say a 10,000+ hour pilot will panic after an engine failure after takeoff means his heart will sink to the bottom of his stomach (that kind of ikky, uh oh, feeling), but at the same time may react perfectly to the situation. Of course some very experienced pilots will try to "chance" it and stall/spin the airplane even though they knew better.

 

[bugchaser]

just because you panic does not mean you will act irrationally or instinctively

What the hell does that mean? It's OK to panic? You are a professional aviator with 1000 hrs of dual given. You aren't allowed to panic.


1000 hrs of dual given does not come close to the kind of experience I am talking about. How many emergencies have you had? How many engine failures? I'm not trying to be confrontational, but you are not understanding what it is that I am saying.

 

[Tram]

In addition just because you panic does not mean you will act irrationally or instinctively.

Hmm..

Synonyms for panic according to webster... confusion, crash, crush, hysteria, be terror-stricken, become hysterical, chicken out, clutch, come apart, crap out, freeze up, have kittens, lose it, lose nerve, overreact, pucker, run scared, scare, stampede, startle, terrify, unnerve..

I think you need to rethink your idea of panic.. There is no rational thought during panic, thus why it is called "panic."

To panic in the cockpit is to die.. There is zero room for panic in the pointy end of the airplane..

 

[Flightjock30]

OK then I admit the term "panic" is not the word I am looking for....I guess shocked is the term I am looking for...if your engine quits you will feel shocked (or like I said before, that feeling of your heart sinking to your stomach). That feeling MAY cause you to act inappropriately to the situation EVEN with tons of flying experience. And that is why some of these experienced pilot die by trying to turn back after their engine crapping out.

 

[polysciguy9]

Since witnesses reported that the engine was producing a constant sound, and it hadn't cut all together, is it possible that he lost a cylinder or two?

 

[bugchaser]

That feeling MAY cause you to act inappropriately to the situation EVEN with tons of flying experience. And that is why some of these experienced pilot die by trying to turn back after their engine crapping out

Again your idea of experience is somewhat clouded. Perhaps the people getting into trouble are "experiencing" thier first serious problem in flight. A few thousand hours of beating around the pattern with no problems, does little to build experience. What did you experience? A normal flight? This is why it usually takes lots and lots of hrs to get someone with the ability to keep thier cool when the sh*t h*ts the fan. I would rather trust a guy that has had his share of technical difficulties instead of a guy that has just been lucky. Your right about one thing, you never know how you will react until it happens. Thats why I trust guys that have been there and done that.

Having said all that, I think it's best to stop this argument. This thread was meant in memory of someone's friend and we should respect that. Doesn't really matter how it happened, just that it did.

 

[Flightjock30]

Bugchaser,

Agreed! And you're right....its sad losing anyone to an aviation related fatality. Very tragic incident.

 

[Irish Pilot]

Elliot was a fantastic guy and sadly was to be a part of my wedding a week after this tragedy occurred. He will indeed be missed.