R.i.p.

[JediNein]

300' from pattern altitude make your crosswind turn. OH, and by the way this is when its safe to turn back to the runway. Until then its straight ahead and aim at the smallest tree.

Fly Safe

Not all aircraft can make it back to the runway at 500 or even 700 feet AGL. If I'm on my game and have practiced the 'impossible turn' recently, I can make a 172 or a Warrior back to the departure runway at 700'. Most of the time it's 800' AGL before the attempt will become successful. If one has a high performance single, forget it, the numbers increase to 1000' or more before the turn back to the field, even the 180 turn to land on the taxiway or the grass is iffy.

I lost 6 friends on December 23, 2004 to the impossible turn. The pilot (my friend, mentor, and an excellent flight instructor) knew better, but tried it anyways.

Something my Dad told me when I was learning to drive applies to engine failures after takeoff in singles: "When crashing, aim at the softest, cheapest thing possible."

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Foxcow]

He was a good kid. One of my good friends was his roommate and called me to tell me what had happened. We all went to school together.

 

[BushwickBill]

Not all aircraft can make it back to the runway at 500 or even 700 feet AGL. If I'm on my game and have practiced the 'impossible turn' recently, I can make a 172 or a Warrior back to the departure runway at 700'. Most of the time it's 800' AGL before the attempt will become successful. If one has a high performance single, forget it, the numbers increase to 1000' or more before the turn back to the field, even the 180 turn to land on the taxiway or the grass is iffy.

I lost 6 friends on December 23, 2004 to the impossible turn. The pilot (my friend, mentor, and an excellent flight instructor) knew better, but tried it anyways.

Something my Dad told me when I was learning to drive applies to engine failures after takeoff in singles: "When crashing, aim at the softest, cheapest thing possible."

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

First off I dont want to change the subject here. Its a tragic subject but maybe we can take something away from this and learn something. I do have a question for you: How would you safely teach this to a student? You cant really pull the engine on the departure leg. Not to mention at an airport with a tower. Its hard to drill this into a student without practice. I've found that I never really learn anything until I do it myself at least once.

I was mostly refering to 4-3-2 c. 6 of the AIM when I mentioned 700 AGL. I know there isn't a real set altitude. I still remember when my instructor pulled the towrope during my pre solo glider checkout at 200 feet.

 

[FN FAL]

I almost got buggered up twice in 152's that had mechanical failures.

One was a mag that became ineffective after it was too late to set the plane down on the runway and one that had a mixture lever fail somewhere between off and full on.

They might be simple planes, but their lack of instrumentation makes them more dangerous in my book.

Before I get attacked on the mag one...I know, no instrumentation will help you there. However, a fuel flow gauge or an EGT guage would have helped me figure there was something wrong in the mixture incident.

Let's not jump to conclusions on this pilot, but let us reflect on our own flights and future flights we may embark on. I'm not saying speculation is off limits, but don't beat on the decedent. He did the best he could with what was dumped on him.

 

[mtrv]

First off I dont want to change the subject here. Its a tragic subject but maybe we can take something away from this and learn something. I do have a question for you: How would you safely teach this to a student? You cant really pull the engine on the departure leg. Not to mention at an airport with a tower. Its hard to drill this into a student without practice. I've found that I never really learn anything until I do it myself at least once.

One advantage of flying radio control for many years, and especially with the heavier models such as quarterscales with high wing loadings; was a lot of first hand looks at the result of departure stalls, 180+ degree return to the runway stall/spin scenarios, turn to final cross-controlled stall/spin & accelerated stall/spin.

This is experience with out actually being on board, but the results are the same, and it stays in your mind.

 

[bugchaser]

Easiest way I've found to demo this to students is to set up "hard deck" at say 3000 ft. Then, while at 3k, slow down as if doing a take off/departure stall. Tell them to fly a normal t.o. profile and pull the power at some point. See if they can get turned around before hitting the hard deck. If you have a gps that shows your ground track, it is easy to point out that it takes more than a 180 to get back to the runway. I still believe that the biggest contributer to these types of accidents is the urge to keep pulling when close to the ground. Very hard to push the nose over at 50 ft, unless you are comfortable at low altitudes. There is a natural instinct in all of us to pull back when the ground is coming up to meet us. It has taken me thousands of hours and many many stalls, etc. at extremely low level to get this out of my system. Most pilots are just not exposed enough to this type of thing to overcome the natural reactions.

 

[mtrv]

I still believe that the biggest contributer to these types of accidents is the urge to keep pulling when close to the ground. Very hard to push the nose over at 50 ft, unless you are comfortable at low altitudes. There is a natural instinct in all of us to pull back when the ground is coming up to meet us.

To complicate things a bit farther, I've now seen the results of two accidents, where at the last second, the pilot's gave into the instinct of full aft yoke and saved themselves as well as a passenger. One was student pilot that stalled into a tree in the middle of a crowded shopping center parking lot (out of fuel), and the other was a Cessna 310 stalling against a 45 degree mountain slope. Injuries amounted to no more than small scratches.

Of course, in both scenarios, no altitude was left for a downward spin, and both airplanes were still had flying speed until the stall. Yet, it's just two situations where pulling back, at very low altitude, did the trick.

 

[bugchaser]

Of course, in both scenarios, no altitude was left for a downward spin, and both airplanes were still had flying speed until the stall. Yet, it's just two situations where pulling back, at very low altitude, did the trick.

Of course when your about to smack the ground, you should pull back on the stick at the last second. That goes without saying. Not really what I was talking about. Sounds like in those incidents, the pilots had the presence of mind to keep the thing flying until the last instant. Very good. Many accidents have been caused by folks not having this ability.

 

[mtrv]

Of course when your about to smack the ground, you should pull back on the stick at the last second. That goes without saying. Not really what I was talking about.

No problem. I knew it wasn't what you were talking about. It's more like pushing over at 50', since it's just too high to roll over & dive into the ground & a full stall to dump airspeed at 5' ---------when you're about to clobber an obsticle.

 

[MissKittyKat]

No one likes to hear of this, let us keep the true memory alive of this 25 year old, ( too young to die) alive and well. god bless him and his familiy, sounds like he did something he loved! We all take chances everyday, life is a gift for sure.

I don't know what else to say, other than to think kindly of the deceased.


MissKittyKat

Have a nice evening