Quit ALPA Now!

[CopilotDoug]

And not having ALPA will take care of the supposed problems that deregulation has caused?

Who said that?

 

[WayBack]

I don't understand why you have to make every post so personal with attacks on the poster rather than on their argument.

You need to learn what a personal attack is first of all, then you have to learn to pick and choose your battles.
We get it, you love ALPA. You see no flaws with them at all. But there is something wrong with you, seeing that you have to question/comment/attack or just quote everyone who doesn't see eye to eye with you about ALPA. It's as if you take the comments personally. There is a reason you feel the need to defend ALPA at all costs. Maybe because deep down inside you really know the flaws about the Association, but if you protect them on FI.com you make yourself feel better.
I think you need to talk to somebody about this. Being in denial can be unhealthy.

 

[CopilotDoug]

ALPA is powerless against bad management. This is the major misconception about ALPA. That ALPA could and should make all airlines the best and most profitable place to work at.

ALPA is responsible for these misconceptions. ALPA and Roger Cohen have alot in common: they thrive off the naievity of uneducated individuals

 

[WayBack]

ALPA is powerless against bad management.

Then what is the point of them? That's where they're needed the most, but even you admit, ALPA is powerless.

So why do you think ALPA is powerless with bad management, give me examples. Also give me your thoughts about ALPA with good management.

 

[Nevets]

Perhaps a more knowledgeable source could answer this. I figured Rez would know, but apparently he doesn't.

Do you know?

Who said that?

You said, "Deregulation has done its damage. In the mean time, ALPA pilots are stuck with Prater's empty pep talks." So I was just making the point that not having ALPA is not going to make deregulation go away.

You need to learn what a personal attack is first of all, then you have to learn to pick and choose your battles.
We get it, you love ALPA. You see no flaws with them at all. But there is something wrong with you, seeing that you have to question/comment/attack or just quote everyone who doesn't see eye to eye with you about ALPA. It's as if you take the comments personally. There is a reason you feel the need to defend ALPA at all costs. Maybe because deep down inside you really know the flaws about the Association, but if you protect them on FI.com you make yourself feel better.
I think you need to talk to somebody about this. Being in denial can be unhealthy.

Personal attacks or whatever else you want to call them. It doesn't matter to me what we call them but I just don't understand why you want to always make this personal. My points are not about me or what is wrong with me or my denial or that I take comments personally or the reason I feel the need to do anything or that it makes me feel better. Every other word you write is a personal attack or whatever you want to say it is.

ALPA is responsible for these misconceptions. ALPA and Roger Cohen have alot in common: they thrive off the naievity of uneducated individuals

I agree that ALPA is responsible for these misconceptions.

Then what is the point of them? That's where they're needed the most, but even you admit, ALPA is powerless.

So why do you think ALPA is powerless with bad management, give me examples. Also give me your thoughts about ALPA with good management.

The point is that ALPA cannot do the job of management. That is, run a successful business. If you have bad management that consistently makes bad decisions, as in JO, there is nothing ALPA can do about that. I was not talking about not being able to do anything about anything else.

 

[Tarzan]

Then what is the point of them? That's where they're needed the most, but even you admit, ALPA is powerless.

So why do you think ALPA is powerless with bad management, give me examples. Also give me your thoughts about ALPA with good management.

ALPA has limited power when it comes to negotiations with the company. The only way to force an issue is to strike and you have to have the blessing of the NMB to strike. Therefore, if the company and the union don't work together, you have a bunch of pissed of people that aren't helping the company achieve a profit to attract more investors. A good relationship gives us situations like Southwest. When the end goal is the same and both parties can look down the road, we both mutually benefit.

Having a union at that point is nice to enforce the current agreement and to provide legal back up against against a person in the company with a bone to pick, a bad report on a medical or a goof that lands you in hot water with the FAA.

You can bet your bottom dollar, CEO has a contract that is enforceable. Why shouldn't you? The side effect is that you get a very vocal minority that belief the company is there excursively for their benefit. The majority don't think in this mindset but the vocal dissidents that don't have a grasp on basic business give the rest a bad name. Rez is a great example. He means well but turns off lots of folks to the idea by coming out of left field with the Engel's philosophy.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Do you know?

I do now. It's appalling!

You said, "Deregulation has done its damage. In the mean time, ALPA pilots are stuck with Prater's empty pep talks." So I was just making the point that not having ALPA is not going to make deregulation go away.

And ALPA has been failing at changing it for the past 30 years. When is it time to try a new approach?

 

[WayBack]

Aw Crap! Thanks for bringing this gem from the dead! BRB, need to get some coffee and a shot of whiskey, so I can read through all this.

 

[Speedtape]

Then what is the point of them? That's where they're needed the most, but even you admit, ALPA is powerless.

If anyone has to explain the "point," you probably still wouldn't get it!
ALPA is not powerless, just not absolute in power--and what replacement institution would be? So if not ALPA, then what is your answer? No representation is not the answer--at least not anyone with a brain.

So why do you think ALPA is powerless with bad management, give me examples. Also give me your thoughts about ALPA with good management.

I can only speak from my experience:

Industry leading pay rates--protected by a CBA
Industry leading work rules--protected by a CBA
Cancellation pay--provided by a CBA
Min Day Guarantee--provided by a CBA
Grievance Process--provided by a CBA
Safer Work environment--provided by a CBA and years of Safety Advocacy
Job Protection--protected by a CBA
FAA Protection--protected by a CBA and "FREE" Legal if needed
Medical Protection--protected by a CBA and a "FREE" Aeromedical Group
Political Advocates for our Profession--Why? Because the Other Guys have them
A neat magazine--and sometimes informative
A Membership Card and Pin--I wear with pride
A Better Career Future than the alternative--Study the History--Many things you take for granted were achieved by the blood and sweat of others before you--Are you a taker?

Keep on Ranting--You don't have a clue. If you are not happy, pick another profession--We need relief, and you need a good dose of Reality!

 

[WayBack]

I
A neat magazine--and sometimes informative
A Membership Card and Pin--I wear with pride
A Better Career Future than the alternative--Study the History--Many things you take for granted were achieved by the blood and sweat of others before you--Are you a taker?

Keep on Ranting--You don't have a clue. If you are not happy, pick another profession--We need relief, and you need a good dose of Reality!

Please tell me you're kidding about these last items!?

I was unhappy and I picked a new job. I just moved across the train tracks to the 91/135 side. You should try it! Beats living in the Shanty Town of the 121 world. Man I love running water! I took a bath last night, oh no, not just a regular ole bath. But a BUBBLE BATH!!!! Smell so clean!

 

[CopilotDoug]

If anyone is clueless on this board, it is you, my friend.

Industry leading pay rates--protected by a CBA

Except this doesn't take into account operations like SWA, UPS, and American.

Industry leading work rules--protected by a CBA

Mesa...Transtates...Pinnacle...

Job Protection--protected by a CBA

What rock have you been living under for the past five years? What protection has been afforded to all the pilots whose companies are now gone?

A Better Career Future than the alternative--Study the History--Many things you take for granted were achieved by the blood and sweat of others before you--Are you a taker?

It's obvious you are proud to be a new ALPA member (probably your first airline job, too) However, take my advice next time before you blindly post ALPA's advertising rag: wake up and do a little critical thinking on your own.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Aw Crap! Thanks for bringing this gem from the dead!

Sorry, I was on hiatus following a nasty BDSM accident I had out in Las Vegas which involved bite marks on my ass requiring stitches. I couldn't sit down for 3 weeks!

 

[Speedtape]

If anyone is clueless on this board, it is you, my friend.
Oh, I have alot of clues! The first one is that you have weak assertions and arguments without merit.

Except this doesn't take into account operations like SWA, UPS, and American.[/COLOR]
This is a Regional Board, and my leading industry reference was germane to Regionals. Maybe you need to check your bearings and what forum that you browse.

Mesa...Transtates...Pinnacle...


What rock have you been living under for the past five years? What protection has been afforded to all the pilots whose companies are now gone?
The job protection referred to is from unfair and egregious managment practices toward individual employees. When working under a CBA, a Pilot is not an "At Will Employee." A Union member's job is protected from disparate treatment.

Airlines, Union and non Union, have been going out of business for years due to financial mismanagement or the economy. No Union can save an airline from financial mismanagement. From that perspective, no job is sacred.



It's obvious you are proud to be a new ALPA member (probably your first airline job, too) However, take my advice next time before you blindly post ALPA's advertising rag: wake up and do a little critical thinking on your own.

It's not my first airline job, but it is my first airline job with ALPA--one I have had for many years. For the record, I am a proud ALPA member. I can post a positive message because my job and profession has benefitted from ALPA in a positive way. Personally, I would never work for any airline without ALPA representation. The evidence is in my CBA and an improved work environment over the years. That's the reality. Now go do some critical thinking and develop a good retort that has foundation instead of taking shallow pot shots with no merit, Mr. Critical Thinker!

 

[WayBack]

[/COLOR]


It's not my first airline job, but it is my first airline job with ALPA--one I have had for many years. For the record, I am a proud ALPA member. I can post a positive message because my job and profession has benefitted from ALPA in a positive way. Personally, I would never work for any airline without ALPA representation. The evidence is in my CBA and an improved work environment over the years. That's the reality. Now go do some critical thinking and develop a good retort that has foundation instead of taking shallow pot shots with no merit, Mr. Critical Thinker!

This is typical response of you and other ALPO chest thumpers.
ALPA has seen better days and wore out it's welcome. Either they do a complete 180 or risk more pilot groups doing the "USAir".
I'm glad you feel so protected by that piece of paper you refer to as a contract. The only contracts that never get violated or abused are the CEO's. The pilots contract is worth the paper it's written on.
Let's say I hand you a bullet proof vest. You going to let me shoot you with my .44 magnum? Why not? So why hide behind your contract? When it comes time when you really need it, your MEC says "Sorry, there is nothing we can do!"

 

[WayBack]

Sorry, I was on hiatus following a nasty BDSM accident I had out in Las Vegas which involved bite marks on my ass requiring stitches. I couldn't sit down for 3 weeks!

It wouldn't have been done by this smoking hot hooker named Carl, was it?

 

[WayBack]

Are you a taker?

Let's talk about taking.
Management has taken away pensions, up to 40% of pay from the pilots, days off, hotels continue to get worse, flight bennies are getting hacked at DCI carriers.....etc. You name it, it's getting taken away. Pilots are giving up everything.
But who is walking away with multi million dollar bonuses while their airlines are in the hole? I know pilots have no control over that, but when are you willing to say enough is enough?
Thing is management knows you will take a beating like a stray dog because you are "living the dream". You'll do what ever it takes to fly an airplane for a living. You've invested so much to get where you are today, and you won't walk away. You'll sit around in the crew room, complain about it and then blow smoke up each others dupas about how it HAS to get better. It can't get any worse!
But also we're a brotherhood who is looking out for one another, but you know damn well the guy that you just bought a sandwich for lunch, will stab you in the back to advance his carrier. Just like ALPA MEC's look after the senior pilot group only, and the junior guys are CONSTANTLY getting bent over. Look at the contracts. Unless you're a senior FO, you're toast!
I've read on here that some MEC's would rather furlough it's pilots than look for alternative methods to keep as many guys employed, but the MEC wasn't talking to management, because they were mad at them. You kidding me!?

Email me in 5 yrs and let's see how much more you have given, but yet your job has improved.

 

[CopilotDoug]

This is a Regional Board, and my leading industry reference was germane to Regionals. Maybe you need to check your bearings and what forum that you browse.

Your reference doesn't take into account Skywest. With Skywest on one end of the spectrum, and Mesa on the other...it goes to show that ALPA isn't all that you and the ALPA chest thumpers crack it up to be. ALPA is but a few leaves floating down a river...which is fine, it is what it is...but don't try and make it out to be something it's not.

For the record, I am a proud ALPA member. I can post a positive message because my job and profession has benefitted from ALPA in a positive way. Personally, I would never work for any airline without ALPA representation. The evidence is in my CBA and an improved work environment over the years. That's the reality. Now go do some critical thinking and develop a good retort that has foundation instead of taking shallow pot shots with no merit, Mr. Critical Thinker!

Glad to see ALPA has you frothing at the mouth over the insult they negotiated for 50 seat pay rates. Are you a first generation pilot, by chance?

 

[WayBack]

[/COLOR] For the record, I am a proud ALPA member. I can post a positive message because my job and profession has benefitted from ALPA in a positive way. Personally, I would never work for any airline without ALPA representation. [/COLOR]

I bet your sweet cheeks you would! You would roll over for a JB or SWA job, who do you think you're kidding?
You know who else said that? I'll give you a clue. He started at GIA, went to PCL because ALPA's biggest chest thumper and then ran to AirTran, his dream job, also a non-ALPA carrier at the time.

 

[Speedtape]

Your reference doesn't take into account Skywest. With Skywest on one end of the spectrum, and Mesa on the other...it goes to show that ALPA isn't all that you and the ALPA chest thumpers crack it up to be. ALPA is but a few leaves floating down a river...which is fine, it is what it is...but don't try and make it out to be something it's not.

I don't work for Mesa or Skywest. However, I can attest to the fact that my job at my Company is better because of ALPA, the local leadership, and the other pilots in ALPA at my Company that have worked together over the years through 3 contracts to make significant gains in pay, benefits, and work rules. It has been worth every penny I have paid and every effort I have made. It is what you make it! I will accept the fact that all do not share the same results--because they did not make the same efforts! If your pilot group does not have the fortitude or ability to achieve a good contract--it's because it's members are spineless and chose not to be unified. Was that your choice?

[/COLOR]
Glad to see ALPA has you frothing at the mouth over the insult they negotiated for 50 seat pay rates. Are you a first generation pilot, by chance?

It's not clear what your reference is. If you are not happy with your 50 seat rates, don't blame it on ALPA! Your pilot group gets what it negotiates! My pilot group negotiated good rates on the 50 seater because they were willing to make the effort.

 

[Speedtape]

I bet your sweet cheeks you would! You would roll over for a JB or SWA job, who do you think you're kidding?
You know who else said that? I'll give you a clue. He started at GIA, went to PCL because ALPA's biggest chest thumper and then ran to AirTran, his dream job, also a non-ALPA carrier at the time.

I wouldn't work for JB--their days are numbered. SWA is a great airline and I have many friends there--some like it and some don't! I wouldn't roll over for either. Where do you work?

 

[Speedtape]

Let's talk about taking.
Management has taken away pensions, up to 40% of pay from the pilots, days off, hotels continue to get worse, flight bennies are getting hacked at DCI carriers.....etc. You name it, it's getting taken away. Pilots are giving up everything.
But who is walking away with multi million dollar bonuses while their airlines are in the hole? I know pilots have no control over that, but when are you willing to say enough is enough?
Thing is management knows you will take a beating like a stray dog because you are "living the dream". You'll do what ever it takes to fly an airplane for a living. You've invested so much to get where you are today, and you won't walk away. You'll sit around in the crew room, complain about it and then blow smoke up each others dupas about how it HAS to get better. It can't get any worse!
But also we're a brotherhood who is looking out for one another, but you know damn well the guy that you just bought a sandwich for lunch, will stab you in the back to advance his carrier. Just like ALPA MEC's look after the senior pilot group only, and the junior guys are CONSTANTLY getting bent over. Look at the contracts. Unless you're a senior FO, you're toast!
I've read on here that some MEC's would rather furlough it's pilots than look for alternative methods to keep as many guys employed, but the MEC wasn't talking to management, because they were mad at them. You kidding me!?

Email me in 5 yrs and let's see how much more you have given, but yet your job has improved.

Hmmm--you seem jaded. Maybe you are working or furloughed from the wrong airline. In the past, I have lost more than one flying job, have been furloughed, and have been junior at several airlines--by the way, so have all those Senior guys that you have such contempt for. When you got into this business, did you understand the seniority system when you applied--or better yet Juniority? It sounds like you are not coping too well and maybe there is a good reason. Hang in there--some day you will be Senior and then you will have to be burdened with the guilt that you are trying to impose on others--but, then I doubt it!

 

[merlindrvr88]

I wouldn't work for JB--their days are numbered. SWA is a great airline and I have many friends there--some like it and some don't! I wouldn't roll over for either. Where do you work?

Would you work for SWA, they are not ALPO and you said you would never work for a non-ALPO carrier? Just asking.

 

[Tarzan]

Email me in 5 yrs and let's see how much more you have given, but yet your job has improved.

Sorry, let us know how you like having your CVR's downloaded and used by management for punitive actions. ALPA certainly has its shortcomings and many members with votes see them and are beginning to stir the pot instead of taking things on blind faith. However, when things such a the ARC and other nasty things such as a the CVR issue, I'd rather have some sort of representation even if we don't get what we want, at least we had a vehicle to fight against it. Suddenly get that issue with your medical? Rather have ALPA offices to help. FAA action or company action? Sorry, while it may be that you can afford a lengthy fight but at least I have some back up there as well.

Wayback, I recognize you like to stir the pot or toss about feces to see who reacts. However just as guys like Rez, you make those who have positions like you, seem parochial. You obviously had a bad experience in the past. ALPA ain't perfect by a long shot but the protections offered beat what you have without legal back up.

 

[Speedtape]

Would you work for SWA, they are not ALPO and you said you would never work for a non-ALPO carrier? Just asking.

SWA is reported to be a great company. I have friends that work there--some like it alot; some are not that happy. Personally, I have no desire to work there for many reasons--not being ALPA is one of the reasons. So good luck to you; that's one less person you have to compete with for a job there. Good Luck!

 

[CopilotDoug]

However, I can attest to the fact that my job at my Company is better because of ALPA, the local leadership, and the other pilots in ALPA at my Company that have worked together over the years through 3 contracts to make significant gains in pay, benefits, and work rules. It has been worth every penny I have paid and every effort I have made. It is what you make it!

And that's what it's all about...YOUR job at YOUR company. Never mind the fact that YOUR pilot group hasn't done ******************** to bridge the pay gap between mainline and regionals, in effect doing a great disservice to the profession and the career.

I will accept the fact that all do not share the same results

because of the selfish of individuals like yourself, as you pointed out above...

--because they did not make the same efforts! If your pilot group does not have the fortitude or ability to achieve a good contract--it's because it's members are spineless and chose not to be unified. Was that your choice?

Again...blame the pilots...a true ALPA follower.

If you are not happy with your 50 seat rates, don't blame it on ALPA! Your pilot group gets what it negotiates!

Don't those bumper stickers say something to the effect of "We Are ALPA"? "We" being the pilots? So if the pilots negotiate a ********************ty contract...it's really ALPA negotiating the ********************ty contract, no?

 

[CX880]

pilots are ti's own worst enemy. management is the master. alpa is the leash

 

[samballs]

SWA is reported to be a great company. I have friends that work there--some like it alot; some are not that happy. Personally, I have no desire to work there for many reasons--not being ALPA is one of the reasons. So good luck to you; that's one less person you have to compete with for a job there. Good Luck!

You're really satisfied with your 50 seat rates?!

 

[sunlitpath]

ALPA can be likened somewhat to the the US Federal Government at the present time. ALPA and the Federal Government both have many individuals with good intentions within their ranks. However, both have too many groups and interests to answer to, and therefore they lose their effectiveness. It seems that unions do have a valuable role at airlines to some degree. This role is best served by a local, in house organization; which is demonstrated at airlines like Southwest, American, and UPS. Pilots must take personal responsibility for the actions of their own pilot group, and not surrender autonomy and money to a useless national organization. The laziness and fear that exists in many individual pilot groups often prevents in-house unions from materializing. When suggestions for forming an in-house union are suggested from time to time, ALPA officers and members often demonize the efforts in fear losing the status quo.

 

[CopilotDoug]

+1

ALPA can be likened somewhat to the the US Federal Government at the present time. ALPA and the Federal Government both have many individuals with good intentions within their ranks. However, both have too many groups and interests to answer to, and therefore they lose their effectiveness. It seems that unions do have a valuable role at airlines to some degree. This role is best served by a local, in house organization; which is demonstrated at airlines like Southwest, American, and UPS. Pilots must take personal resonsibility for the actions of their own pilot group, and not surrender autonomy and money to a useless national organization. The laziness and fear that exists in many individual pilot groups often prevents in-house unions from materializing. When suggestions for forming an in-house union are suggested from time to time, ALPA officers and members often demonize the efforts in fear losing the status quo.

Well said, Sunlit

 

[Speedtape]

And that's what it's all about...YOUR job at YOUR company. Never mind the fact that YOUR pilot group hasn't done ******************** to bridge the pay gap between mainline and regionals, in effect doing a great disservice to the profession and the career.

My job at my Company are the things that I have some direct control over. I don't have any control over your job and your Company. However, at my Company, we have raised the standards in pay and benefits in OUR CBA through the last 2 contracts within OUR regional industry. If you have an inadequate contract, then you have two choices. First, you could apply at another carrier, which is probably not an answer for now. Secondly, you can get off your malcontent touche and effect change within your pilot group by utilizing whatever bargaining tools you have available. No one has a more vested interest in that goal and the return than you. No one else will do it for you. You and your fellow pilots at your Company are the only ones that can make that change. Utilizing ALPA can help, but ultimately, it is up to the resolve, will, and committment of your pilot group.

because of the selfish of individuals like yourself, as you pointed out above...

Again...blame the pilots...a true ALPA follower.

Don't those bumper stickers say something to the effect of "We Are ALPA"? "We" being the pilots? So if the pilots negotiate a ********************ty contract...it's really ALPA negotiating the ********************ty contract, no?

Please! I am not responsible for you. Call it what you want. If you are on this board, trying to debate fairness and justice, then you are the problem and not the solution--or even working toward it. Utilizing ALPA has benefitted my Pilot group. However, ultimately, it was not up to ALPA to achieve our goals in pay, benefits, and work improvements. It was up to every pilot in my Company and our local Leadership to make a committment to assess, negotiate, and achieve our negotiating goals. Utilizing ALPA, we had the financial assistance, legal assistance, and resources to accomplish OUR goals. However, it all starts and ends with your pilots and your leadership. As a pilot group, we were able to pattern bargain because of the accomplishments of other ALPA carriers.

In summary, your pilot group will get what they negotiate! It is totally dependent on the committment that your pilot group is willing to make!