Quit ALPA Now!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What is interesting are all of the dynamics that effect this profession. The most significant is the market. The Airline industry when treated like a market commodity and not a national infrastructure must constantly grow to keep cost down.

When the bankers and Wall St. clowns take over the infrastructure and turn it into casino capitalism, there are going to be significant up and downs and winners and losers. Labor will always be a cost target.

Fact is, we view everything thru the market lens. There is nothing that should not be bought and sold on the market....

Live by the market, die by the market.... to expect unions to counter global market forces is ignorant.

 

[CopilotDoug]

And who is a party to every NTSB investigation dealing with an ALPA carrier (whose expertise from ALPA's Engineering and Air Safty department they rely on)? And who is asked to participate in ARCs and Call to Action meetings by the FAA? And who is the current FAA administrator?

For all that Babbitt is worth, we might as well have Cohen heading up the FAA. We haven't heard much about flight and duty times in a while have we? When asked whether or not disparaging pay rates contributed to fatigue, Babbitt was johnny-on-the-spot to roll the pilots under the bus in front of a senate subcomittee. To paraphrase, he said something along the lines of "This isn't about pay....it's about a lack of professionalism" All of that other crap about ALPA watching investigations from the sidelines is filler that they fluff up their resume with. At the end of the day...it doesn't mean jack.

ALPA has paid off in dividends to all pilots, members or not by helping make the act of piloting safer, whether its a hobby, for business, entertainment, humanitarian, or as a way to earn a living.

I disagree. Lower pay rates means higher turnover which equates to lost talent which in turn makes it a little more dangerous to be the flying public.

Thanks for dropping the ball ALPA.

 

[Nevets]

That becomes the problem though. Term limits alleviate the issue though. However, ALPA has been around a VERY long time. Plenty of time for certain habits to formed that do not necessarily justify their existence. My thought was pure speculation as far as ALPA outliving its usefulness as an organization. Although witht he current train of thought, it may have in fact be reaching the end of its existence.

Then we should do something about it rather than just complain.

ALPA and Obama have so much in common.
They both claim that everything that is good, is because of them.
Everything that is bad, is because of someone else.

ALPA making things safer? Debatable. They've been fighting for new flight and duty rules for the last 40yrs. Everything is an ALPA contract is pretty close to FAA FAR's. Maybe :30 or :60 minute difference.

Debatable? Not really. ALPA has been instrumental in helping bring many things to piloting that make it safer from the Standard T panel, to ASAP/FOAQ, to new rest rules in the near future. And I can go on and on in just safety, not to mention other things on how they have protected its members from some of the management types out there.

For all that Babbitt is worth, we might as well have Cohen heading up the FAA. We haven't heard much about flight and duty times in a while have we? When asked whether or not disparaging pay rates contributed to fatigue, Babbitt was johnny-on-the-spot to roll the pilots under the bus in front of a senate subcomittee. To paraphrase, he said something along the lines of "This isn't about pay....it's about a lack of professionalism" All of that other crap about ALPA watching investigations from the sidelines is filler that they fluff up their resume with. At the end of the day...it doesn't mean jack.

Doesn't mean jack? That is your argument? Nothing to back up that claim? Don't be so quick to throw Babbitt under the bus as well. His tenure is not over yet. And I'm confident that he will change the rest rules in the near future.

I disagree. Lower pay rates means higher turnover which equates to lost talent which in turn makes it a little more dangerous to be the flying public.

Thanks for dropping the ball ALPA.

Even if I agreed with your premise, what you said about turnover did not disprove the fact that ALPA has made piloting safer.

But you can't have it both ways anyways. You blame ALPA for age 65, yet that helped the turnover you say erodes safety.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Doesn't mean jack? That is your argument? Nothing to back up that claim? Don't be so quick to throw Babbitt under the bus as well. His tenure is not over yet. And I'm confident that he will change the rest rules in the near future.

Yes...that is my position. We're not flying Jenny's for E.L. Chord today. There will ALWAYS be room for improvement. But as far as the job itself goes, when it can't pay the bills anymore, all the safety stuff becomes window dressing.

Even if I agreed with your premise, what you said about turnover did not disprove the fact that ALPA has made piloting safer.

But you can't have it both ways anyways. You blame ALPA for age 65, yet that helped the turnover you say erodes safety.

No...my position primarily applies to the regionals. They're just stepping stones, you know.

 

[Nevets]

Yes...that is my position. We're not flying Jenny's for E.L. Chord today. There will ALWAYS be room for improvement. But as far as the job itself goes, when it can't pay the bills anymore, all the safety stuff becomes window dressing.

No...my position primarily applies to the regionals. They're just stepping stones, you know.

Still nothing to back up your position though. Of course there is always room for improvement, hence why ALPA is at the sunshine meeting today and pushing congress to pass HR3371.

I don't think the relatives of Colgan 3407 think the safety stuff is window dressing.

Age 65 has also stopped the turnover at regionals so your argument holds no water.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Still nothing to back up your position though.

Experienced pilots aren't leaving the industry because a lack of safety. I'll let you add 2 and 2 together.

Of course there is always room for improvement, hence why ALPA is at the sunshine meeting today and pushing congress to pass HR3371.

I don't think the relatives of Colgan 3407 think the safety stuff is window dressing.

This argument undermines ALPA's contributions to safety and highlights the real issue: Pilot compensation. As modern as the Q400 is, it ultimately boiled down to the 2 pilots up front. Had they been compensated accordingly, they could have afforded hotel rooms instead of resorting to the crew room for rest. With all due respect to the family's of those who died in the crash....they want to have their cake and eat it to, i.e. low ticket prices AND the best pilots out there. It doesn't work that way. It's a shame that ALPA hasn't exploited the pay issue more.

Age 65 has also stopped the turnover at regionals so your argument holds no water.

That doesn't mean much to the pilots leaving the industry for other careers.

 

[StarChecker]

Incompetent ALPA idiots will pay United Pilots 44 million dollars in a settlement for goofing up their retirement allocation. Good heavens, this is $830 per member. FK ALPA, All day, all night...

I will need surgery soon on my sinuses. I'd love to have someone to consult regarding the affects this will have on my medical. Any ideas...because my Student Council "Pilot Values Committee" which is my "direct relationship" with my company cannot help me...I have to call AOPA for advice. A professional airline pilot calling AOPA for medical advice...oh well.

I'd love to have access to supplemental disability insurance...but my pilot group is non-union....oh well.

I'd love to have an industry standard retirement...but my company cannot give me a seperate retirement plan from the rest of the company because my pilot group is non-union....oh well.

I'd love to have more affordable health insurance than I had at my unionized regional....but my pilot group is non-union....oh well.

I'd love to have health insurance for me and my family if I lose my medical...but my Student Council is "working on it".

I'd love to have a scope clause to prevent outsourcing of my flying....but my pilot group is non-union and the Student Council is "working on it"....oh well.


Lesson....don't ever take your CBA for granted.

 

[Nevets]

Experienced pilots aren't leaving the industry because a lack of safety. I'll let you add 2 and 2 together.

You make my point for me. Pilots are not leaving this profession because of the lack of safety. Many of the pilots flying Jennys for E.L. Chord left the profession by way of untimely death in an aircraft accident. The fact that is not the case anymore speaks volumes to ALPA's fight to make piloting safer.

This argument undermines ALPA's contributions to safety and highlights the real issue: Pilot compensation. As modern as the Q400 is, it ultimately boiled down to the 2 pilots up front. Had they been compensated accordingly, they could have afforded hotel rooms instead of resorting to the crew room for rest. With all due respect to the family's of those who died in the crash....they want to have their cake and eat it to, i.e. low ticket prices AND the best pilots out there. It doesn't work that way. It's a shame that ALPA hasn't exploited the pay issue more.

You act as if ALPA tells CEOs to pay us less. Do you think JO would pay or treat his pilots as little as he does now if ALPA was not on property?

This is part of why I say pilots are their own worst enemy. They fight each other when its not pilots wishing that they get paid less. Its management that tries to pay us less. Pilots need to stop fighting each other about how best to get pay up and start actually doing something about it.

That doesn't mean much to the pilots leaving the industry for other careers.

Irrelevant to the fact I was stating that ALPA has made piloting safer.

You say less pay erodes safety because of pilots leaving the profession. I say you can't have it both ways because when ALPA didn't oppose age 65 and therefore lowering attrition, and by your deduction, increase safety (due to lower attrition), you still blame them for age 65 anyways. Then you backtracked and said your position was only towards regionals, I said that age 65 has also lowered attrition there as well. And now that I have shown that not only is attrition (for whatever reason) is irrelevant to ALPA helping make piloting safer, you can only say that it doesn't mean much to those pilots leaving the industry. Again, irrelevant to the fact that ALPA has helped increase safety of piloting and never have you disproved that fact with anything of relevance.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nevets... consider not wasting your time with a RAH pilot..... I suspect not over the age of 26.

 

[CopilotDoug]

You make my point for me. Pilots are not leaving this profession because of the lack of safety. Many of the pilots flying Jennys for E.L. Chord left the profession by way of untimely death in an aircraft accident. The fact that is not the case anymore speaks volumes to ALPA's fight to make piloting safer.

Nice spin, but you missed the point. Safety isn't a top priority. Pay has always been the top priority. Just look in your Bible.

You act as if ALPA tells CEOs to pay us less.

With slogans like "Live to fight another day" they're ASKING for management's abuse.

Do you think JO would pay or treat his pilots as little as he does now if ALPA was not on property?

Any guess would be pure speculation. ALPA is and always has been on property at Mesa with JO at the helm.

This is part of why I say pilots are their own worst enemy. They fight each other when its not pilots wishing that they get paid less. Its management that tries to pay us less. Pilots need to stop fighting each other about how best to get pay up and start actually doing something about it.

The current practice of bending over and taking it in the shorts for the preservation of the Union is setting unacceptable precedents for the industry. Living to fight another day is only helping assure that the bar stays lower.

Irrelevant to the fact I was stating that ALPA has made piloting safer.

Totally relevant! It shows that safety isn't a top priority for pilots.

You say less pay erodes safety because of pilots leaving the profession.

You conveniently left out the part I mentioned about rest related issues regarding pay. If a pilot can't afford to live in base (a very common occurence these days) he or she must commute. At the regional level, most pilots can't afford a hotel room and must settle for a crashpad. No studies need to be done to know that the quality of rest at a crashpad is nowhere near as good as a hotel room. Some pilots can't even afford a crashpad and resort to staying in the crew room. Are these pilots Safe?

I say you can't have it both ways because when ALPA didn't oppose age 65 and therefore lowering attrition, and by your deduction, increase safety (due to lower attrition), you still blame them for age 65 anyways. Then you backtracked and said your position was only towards regionals, I said that age 65 has also lowered attrition there as well.

I thought we were in the regionals forum...no? Anywho, you brought up age 65 (I suspect in a lame attempt to divert attention away from the topic) And for the record, you said, "Age 65 has also stopped the turnover at regionals". Stopped? FALSE. Pilots are still leaving the airline industry regardless of Age 65 (Due to lack of pay and benefits). Replacing an experienced line pilot with a newbie...do you honestly think this is making the industry safer?

And now that I have shown that not only is attrition (for whatever reason) is irrelevant to ALPA helping make piloting safer, you can only say that it doesn't mean much to those pilots leaving the industry.

Because safety comes after pay and benefits. If you can't address the first two issues, you're going to have a problem retaining talent. In effect...making the industry (not the act of piloting, mind you) less safe.

Again, irrelevant to the fact that ALPA has helped increase safety of piloting and never have you disproved that fact with anything of relevance.

Nevets, I'll concede that ALPA has assisted in making the act of piloting safer. As far as making the industry safer? I have conclusively proven that due to ALPA's incompetence, the industry is less safe. You do, however, exemplify the typical disconnect between ALPA and the pilots. Pilots need better pay and benefits...and ALPA is too busy working on side issues.

Maybe it will take a few more cases like AAA before ALPA catches on.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

mind blowing.....

 

[WayBack]

You make my point for me. Pilots are not leaving this profession because of the lack of safety. Many of the pilots flying Jennys for E.L. Chord left the profession by way of untimely death in an aircraft accident. The fact that is not the case anymore speaks volumes to ALPA's fight to make piloting safer.

ALPA has had their hand in safety....seeing they can't do anything else.
But they're not the sole party. I'd like to think about all the lessons we've learned from other accidents and pilots. Or how about the advancement in technology? Let me guess, it was an ALPA engineer who designed all this new technology.
The list is long, but ALPA's is short. Sully has done more for this industry by himself, than ALPA has done in the last 75yrs.

ALPA just likes to take credit for others work.

 

[Nevets]

Nice spin, but you missed the point. Safety isn't a top priority. Pay has always been the top priority. Just look in your Bible.

No, I didn't miss the point. You just don't agree with mine that if this profession wasn't safe people wouldnt be in it to complain about pay.

With slogans like "Live to fight another day" they're ASKING for management's abuse.

Again, even if agreed with what you say here, it still does not disprove what I said that its not like ALPA is telling CEOs to pay us less.

Any guess would be pure speculation. ALPA is and always has been on property at Mesa with JO at the helm.

You give JO too much credit if you don't think Mesa pilots' plight would not be worse.

The current practice of bending over and taking it in the shorts for the preservation of the Union is setting unacceptable precedents for the industry. Living to fight another day is only helping assure that the bar stays lower.

The current practice of pilots bashing entities that try to help pilots by making piloting safer and helping increase pay is setting an unacceptable precedent for the industry.

Totally relevant! It shows that safety isn't a top priority for pilots.

Irrelevant because people wouldn't be in the profession complaining about pay if it wasn't safe to be in it to begin with. Much less people flying less if they felt that transportation by means of aircraft was unsafe and thus less pilots required.

You conveniently left out the part I mentioned about rest related issues regarding pay. If a pilot can't afford to live in base (a very common occurence these days) he or she must commute. At the regional level, most pilots can't afford a hotel room and must settle for a crashpad. No studies need to be done to know that the quality of rest at a crashpad is nowhere near as good as a hotel room. Some pilots can't even afford a crashpad and resort to staying in the crew room. Are these pilots Safe?

I'm not saying that we get paid enough. I'm talking about how ALPA is not worthless and my first point in that is because they have made piloting safer. Sorry if age 65 seemed like a distraction but I was just pointing out how in your deduction that if there is more attrition there is less safety. So the if there is less attrition, age 65, there is more safety. But Im sure you give ALPA grief about age 65 as well.

I thought we were in the regionals forum...no? Anywho, you brought up age 65 (I suspect in a lame attempt to divert attention away from the topic) And for the record, you said, "Age 65 has also stopped the turnover at regionals". Stopped? FALSE. Pilots are still leaving the airline industry regardless of Age 65 (Due to lack of pay and benefits). Replacing an experienced line pilot with a newbie...do you honestly think this is making the industry safer? [/quote

We are talking about a union that represents pilots at the regionals, majors, cargo, etc. And why would we be restricted to solely talking about just regionals just because we are in the regionals forum. But I will concede that I used the wrong term. It didn't stop attrition but it sure hasn't helped it though.

Because safety comes after pay and benefits. If you can't address the first two issues, you're going to have a problem retaining talent. In effect...making the industry (not the act of piloting, mind you) less safe.

Again, we disagree on where safety comes. The reason why people complain about pay (not that they are wrong by doing so) is because they don't have the need to complain about safety. If you can't make it safe, you are going to have problems retaining pilots because of their untimely death in an aircraft accident.

Nevets, I'll concede that ALPA has assisted in making the act of piloting safer. As far as making the industry safer? I have conclusively proven that due to ALPA's incompetence, the industry is less safe. You do, however, exemplify the typical disconnect between ALPA and the pilots. Pilots need better pay and benefits...and ALPA is too busy working on side issues.

And by making piloting safer it has made the industry, profession, hobby, whatever else you want to call it, safer because it involves piloting.

Maybe it will take a few more cases like AAA before ALPA catches on.

No one said ALPA is perfect.

ALPA has had their hand in safety....seeing they can't do anything else.
But they're not the sole party. I'd like to think about all the lessons we've learned from other accidents and pilots. Or how about the advancement in technology? Let me guess, it was an ALPA engineer who designed all this new technology.
The list is long, but ALPA's is short. Sully has done more for this industry by himself, than ALPA has done in the last 75yrs.

ALPA just likes to take credit for others work.

I didn't try to make it seem as though this profession is safe only because of ALPA. I've tried to say many times that with the help of ALPA, this profession is safer.

 

[WayBack]

I didn't try to make it seem as though this profession is safe only because of ALPA. I've tried to say many times that with the help of ALPA, this profession is safer.

Again, that's very debatable. Lot's of things need to be fixed, very important things, such as rest, duty, and pay. Sure, ALPA has been working on all of those things for a while, but have yet to pull the trigger and get any of them changed.
Well, except for pay. They do a good job agreeing with pay cuts.

 

[CopilotDoug]

They do a good job agreeing with pay cuts.

While simultaneously taking measures to protect the pay (if not raising it) of the ALPA officers.

 

[Tarzan]

Again, that's very debatable. Lot's of things need to be fixed, very important things, such as rest, duty, and pay. Sure, ALPA has been working on all of those things for a while, but have yet to pull the trigger and get any of them changed.
Well, except for pay. They do a good job agreeing with pay cuts.

I am not what you'd consider a huge ALPA fan but your history recall is flawed. ALPA is what instituted many of the beginnings of the rest rules you see today.

 

[WayBack]

I am not what you'd consider a huge ALPA fan but your history recall is flawed. ALPA is what instituted many of the beginnings of the rest rules you see today.

How is it flawed? ALPA has been working on rest rules ever since my relatives started flying in the 1960's.
They agreed on those rules, and now they're only making progress on new rules because Congress is pushing for it. Otherwise ALPA has no power to push across a new set of rules, otherwise they would have done it years ago.
ALPA is also RLA....which is completely outdated.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA has had their hand in safety....seeing they can't do anything else.
But they're not the sole party. I'd like to think about all the lessons we've learned from other accidents and pilots. Or how about the advancement in technology? Let me guess, it was an ALPA engineer who designed all this new technology.
The list is long, but ALPA's is short.

Produce this list....

Sully has done more for this industry by himself, than ALPA has done in the last 75yrs.

easy to say... impossible to back up..

ALPA just likes to take credit for others work.

your claim... back it up....

How is it flawed? ALPA has been working on rest rules ever since my relatives started flying in the 1960's.
They agreed on those rules,

Jsut as you've agreed on them. ALPA doesn't get to vote on congressional legislation or FAA policy... that would be for congress and the FAA.

and now they're only making progress on new rules because Congress is pushing for it. Otherwise ALPA has no power to push across a new set of rules, otherwise they would have done it years ago.

on this you are correct... so why put the onus on ALPA any more than yourself.

ALPA is also RLA....which is completely outdated.

no the RLA is the Fed.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Sully has done more for this industry by himself, than ALPA has done in the last 75yrs.

Undeniable. How many times has Prater been invited onto News Networks and TV Shows to voice the plight of the industry and inform the flying public?

Point goes to Sully.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell.