Question: Pay for difference for a type and SIC?

[Jack Schitt]

A while back, I saw a Boeing training video of the effects on early rotation, late rotation, over rotation and under rotation on aircraft performance. It was eye opening to say the least. If you want, need or expect book performance then you have to fly it by the book.

'Sled

I can't say I disagree, but what happens to your obstacle clearance requirements if you rotate the airplane while you're 10, 20, or 30 degrees off the runway heading? Nobody expects a pilot to make an immediate 10-30 degree turn when they're 4,000 ft. down an 8,000 ft. runway. But yet that's exactly what can happen if you rotate the airplane before you're tracking the runway heading.

 

[G100driver]

Jack ... No disrespect here, but it should not take too much figure out which engine has failed apply rudder and then rotate to the prescribed pitch angle at VR.

If one is that concerned about their abilty to react to an engine failure then one can call V1 5 knots early provided that an early V1 does not go below V1mini.

I would also like to think that a professional pilot should be able to perform a V1 cut with the mains never crossing the center line.

 

[some_dude]

Some of this confusion may relate to a note in the Learjet AFM which cautions pilots to keep the nosewheel on the ground "until Vr."

Or it may not.

 

[G100driver]

Some of this confusion may relate to a note in the Learjet AFM which cautions pilots to keep the nosewheel on the ground "until Vr."

Or it may not.

That would not surprise me. A very good friend of mine refers to the Lear as "flying band-aid."

 

[Jack Schitt]

Jack ... No disrespect here, but it should not take too much figure out which engine has failed apply rudder and then rotate to the prescribed pitch angle at VR.

If one is that concerned about their abilty to react to an engine failure then one can call V1 5 knots early provided that an early V1 does not go below V1mini.

I would also like to think that a professional pilot should be able to perform a V1 cut with the mains never crossing the center line.

None taken. In a perfect world you would be correct. In a simulator, while you're locked and loaded for a V1 cut, you would be correct. If you're departing in a real airplane at 0300 would you still be correct? If you're departing in marginal conditions after being on duty for 15 hours would you still be correct? All I'm saying is that there's more to think about than just rotating at Vr no matter what.

 

[HMR]

Jack ... No disrespect here, but it should not take too much figure out which engine has failed apply rudder and then rotate to the prescribed pitch angle at VR.

I would also like to think that a professional pilot should be able to perform a V1 cut with the mains never crossing the center line.

Agreed.

"30 degrees" off runway heading in a Biz Jet? I'll bet that pilot never flew piston twins/T-Props.

 

[Stealthh21]

That would not surprise me. A very good friend of mine refers to the Lear as "flying band-aid."

Sorry what does that mean??

 

[G100driver]

Sorry what does that mean??

I have yet to see an airplane, other than a lear, that has as many mod and A/D changes. The FSI book describes the airplane unless of course you are operating serial numbers 2??-3?? ect, ect.

Not meant to be an insult, just not one airplane matches the other. Thus trying to contantly band-aid the airplane to make a better airframe. IMHO

 

[Spooky 1]

Proper term is Rotate

When the PNF calls "Rotate" he's not making a command, he's making a statement. He's telling the PF that the aircraft has reached a safe flying speed. There is no requirement to rotate at exactly Vr +0. Many very experienced professional pilots will say "Vr" instead of "Rotate" for exactly this reason. It's just as important to keep the airplane tracking straight down the runway as it is to rotate at or near Vr. I'm not saying accelerate to V2 on the ground, but there's nothing wrong with rotating beyond Vr.

This is sort of like picking the fly sh*t out of the pepper but I believe the term "rotate" is preferalble to VR as in some cases with a cluttered runway, VR or Rotate can occur after V2. Boeing recognizes this anomaly and uses the term "rotate" through out all of their FCTM. While recently compiling a GOM for our own operation and trying to harmonize as many callouts as possible through out a large fleet of aircraft we did notice that this is not a constant with all aircraft mfg's. The BBD700 is one of them as I recall, but then it's French! So do what ever you want, but the term "experienced pilots will say "Vr" instead of "rotate" does not stand the test of close examination in this case at least.

Contrary to your statement that there is nothing wrong with delaying the rotation, both takeoff and initial climb performance depend on rotating at the correct airspeed and proper rate to the rotation target altitude. Early or rapid rotation may cause a tail strike. Late, slow, or under rotation increases takeoff ground roll. Any improper rotation decreases initial climb flight path.

Takeoff speeds are established based upon minimum control speed, stall speed, and tail clearance margins. Shorter bodied aircraft are normally governed by stall speed margin while longer bodied aircraft are normally limited by tail clearance margins. When a smooth continous rotation is initiated at VR, tail clearance margin is assured because computed takeoff speeds depicted in the FM/QRH, airport analysis or FMC, are adjusted to provide adequate tail clearance.

 

[LrBob]

For what ever its worth, my first job required i pay for my type.
Well that was in 98, now I make 130,000 plus managing and flying Lears, I also fly citations contract and I paid for that 1 as well. I know its rare to make the money I do working Lears and Citations, but it was worth it for me to do what i did. Also without a type, you are just another co-pilot, a dime a dozen. But with a type you are a Captain