Question for those of you who fly in or out JFK

[atcloser]

I'm an air traffic controller at NY TRACON assigned to the JFK sector. I've posted in the past about how our traffic at JFK has steadily increased over the past year, and we are now at a point where we are holding aircraft on day shifts (not seen in many many years as JFK was notoriuous for being dead in the morning for arrivals) and our finals are completely full for the entire night shift.

I'd like to pose a question for anyone who is either based at JFK or flies into JFK on a routine basis. Many of us in the sector use visual approaches to expedite traffic and avoid putting you all in a hold at Camrn or Lendy. When I say visual approach, I am speaking of getting you to following the proceeding traffic visually and mainting your own separation on final. For instance:

Controller: "Jetblue 171 you are following a heavy B747 at 11 oclock, 5 miles at 2000 feet"
Pilot: "In sight"
Contoller: "Jetblue 171, follow the heavy 747, caution wake turb, cleared visual approach 31R"

Using this method for working the final allows for two things, 1) expedites traffic as the pilot will most of the time follow the preceding aircraft with minimum seperation and 2) allows the controller not to have to worry about providing 3,4, or 5 miles to the runway threshold thereby allowing excessive spacing on the final the be held to a minimum. Note, the FAA has been cracking down severly on lost seperation on finals, suspending and firing controllers who have had 4.98 miles when they needed 5 miles behind a heavy. That is one reason you may find yourself 7 nm in trail of a heavy or 5 in trail of an A320 these days, all while doing 160 knots.

Let me also say that using this method keeps the base leg in much closer to the airports and allows aircraft to fly at faster speeds as the controller keeps altitutde separation in anticipation the pilot will see the proceeding aircraft. Aircraft at similar speeds can thus be aimed toward each other with 1000 feet of altitude separation and thus the flow keeps moving toward the airport instead of away from it.

Now for my question. Do you pilots mind following the proceeding aircraft on a visual approach? Does it cause you any more workload? Would you rather ATC just put everyone on an ILS and build in an extra mile or two on the finals, but in turn, cause delays, excessive vectoring over the ocean, or holding? What are some things that ATC could do differently to make this work better for you?

After reading that 25 of the 50 most delayed flights in the country started or ended at JFK, I would like to be able to put my two cents into fixing the problem. Any comments, even negative ones, would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[lowecur]

After reading that 25 of the 50 most delayed flights in the country started or ended at JFK, I would like to be able to put my two cents into fixing the problem. Any comments, even negative ones, would be appreciated.

Thanks.

I fly to JFK quite a bit on my way to upstate. It has gotten as bad as ATL, even in the morning. Usually a 30-45 minute wait to TO. B6 and DL have maxed the place out.

Don't know anything about traffic control, but I would think when the winds are soft enough they could get more use out of 4L & 4R for departures.

imp:​

 

[Bat]

I fly in and out of JFK regularly and I try to accept the visual any time that I can. I thought it helped and and wanted to do all that I could to help with the spacing problems. I also try to call airport in sight as early as possible for the same reason. If we can safely maintain our own spacing and just go direct to final visually, it is certainly preferable to going out for a long final.

By the way, how has Delta's introduction of the Dash's impacted the traffic flow?

 

[J32driver]

atcloser... great questions.

You'll come across all sorts of answers for the visuals. I try to take a visual whenever I can, but have flown with Captains that won't take a visual if they don't have to.

About the only thing that makes me uneasy is trying to space myself 5 miles behind a heavy without asistance from ATC. I can roll in on anything and space myself 2 or 3 miles behind. But when I try to roll in on a heavy, I'm more likely to wind up 7 miles behind it instead of 5.

 

[SoCentralRain]

It's certainly easier for a Dash 8 (or any turboprop) to be stabilized by 1000' AGL on final than a typical turbojet. I'm not saying it's not possible for a turbojet to accept a visual approach and be stable by 1000'; it's just a little more work.

Following a heavy (or a 757) in a -320 on glidepath will typically be preceded by flying through their wake sometime before becoming established on localizer and glidepath. Whether or not a flight crew wishes to get bumped around (it's worse on a rather calm winds day) is up to them. One could fly "a dot high" on the glideslope, but it takes more work in the -320. Hard to believe (hah hah) but some pilots are lazy.

As another asked, how is the Dash 8 affecting your operation?

 

[Blue Dude]

I love accepting visual separation if it helps out. "Visual" in this case meaning the aircraft is in sight and also on the TCAS, for wagging the separation on final. As long as speeds are somewhat compatible, it's not a problem. One real problem is when you're cruising in behind a heavy and the guy ahead throws the anchor out before the FAF and you suddenly have an 80 kt overtake. Oops. Another is when you're maybe 2 1/2 in trail of an RJ and the guy misses his turnoff. You're now at 500 ft, maybe 45 seconds from the numbers and he's at taxi speed trying to find an exit. It happens.

Ditto on the Dash-8 question. They are terrific aircraft but I'm concerned that they are perhaps not blending in well.

Just FYI, things might get a little more complicated for you in a couple of weeks. At that time, JetBlue ops will specify that the aircraft must be stabilized at 1000 ft on final under all conditions, or a go-around is mandatory. Before you could go as low as 500 ft in day VMC conditions before becoming fully stabilized (we're talking airspeed here mostly - glidepath and configuration are set up earlier). This means perhaps slowing earlier than you're used to under day VMC. But at least it'll be consistent, which I suppose is the point.

 

[G4G5]

Accepting the visual is not a problem. I was based out of LGA for years and those folks know how to move volume, their whole world revolves around accepting the visual. With that being said they don't deal in nearly as many heavies as you folks do.

In general the pilots I have flown with will take the visual if they have the traffic in sight. What PO's most of us is when the visual is forced upon us. Many a time I have been asked, "do you have the traffic" and I say, "no", then the controller will ask, "do you have the field" and I say"yes" the next words out of his mouth are, "cleared for the visual". All you did was PO me and now I am dragging the aircraft in at the slowest speed I can because I am now looking for an aircraft that I don't see. What most controllers don't realize is they may have solved one problem (separation with me and the aircraft in front of me) but they have just created another (separation with the guy behind me and me).

The other thing to mention is always tell us what type of aircraft we are following. If you tell me Jetblue 123 I know its a 320 or smaller but if you tell me American 123, I am not sure what it is.

Another tip is if you want some to readily accept the visual. Put the traffic in front of them at a lower alt. If you clear a heavy for the ILS and he is at 2000, then offer me the visual at 3000, not 2000. At 3000 I can stay above his wake the entire approach. At 2000 I am concerned about his wake. It's not that a big deal to fly a 1 dot high on GS, especially with the length of JFK's rwys.

Do many folks keep up the speed (above 250K below 10,000) when the are arriving from the South (more then 12 miles off shore, outside the ADIZ) or is it the case of them slowing to 250k out of habit?

 

[mrswede]

For a pilot to see traffic there needs to be relative motion. Once you are lined up behind each other it is very difficult to see the other aircraft. I can't explain why it is sometimes almost imposible to see traffic pointed out by ATC and seen on TCAS. I will always call the traffic as soon as I see it.

 

[737 Pylt]

I love accepting visual separation if it helps out. "Visual" in this case meaning the aircraft is in sight and also on the TCAS, for wagging the separation on final. As long as speeds are somewhat compatible, it's not a problem. One real problem is when you're cruising in behind a heavy and the guy ahead throws the anchor out before the FAF and you suddenly have an 80 kt overtake. Oops. Another is when you're maybe 2 1/2 in trail of an RJ and the guy misses his turnoff. You're now at 500 ft, maybe 45 seconds from the numbers and he's at taxi speed trying to find an exit. It happens.

Ditto on the Dash-8 question. They are terrific aircraft but I'm concerned that they are perhaps not blending in well.

Just FYI, things might get a little more complicated for you in a couple of weeks. At that time, JetBlue ops will specify that the aircraft must be stabilized at 1000 ft on final under all conditions, or a go-around is mandatory. Before you could go as low as 500 ft in day VMC conditions before becoming fully stabilized (we're talking airspeed here mostly - glidepath and configuration are set up earlier). This means perhaps slowing earlier than you're used to under day VMC. But at least it'll be consistent, which I suppose is the point.

Blue:

Good points...I might add that its just as rough behind a heavy who slowed too much to make the left turn off 31R, or has rolled all the way to the end.
Either way, trying to accept the visual when possible is always nice to help expedite...When the weather is MVFR, forget it. Also, I have noticed that there are more holding delays on VFR days than usual!

737

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

When's JFK going to figure out how to operate off of multiple runways?

 

[xkuzme1]

...

I'll take the visuals when ever I can because I realise that it helps everyone out.

I like it when an approach controller instructs (if a possable visual is called):
Maintain xxx (180) to the marker, traffic ahead is a 757 and also assigned 180 to the marker.

That helps for spacing. If given that speed, I feel that I can call the visual easier becasue I dont have to guess what I will need for the spacing.

What I do not like doing is calling the visual on a base leg. It seems that whenever I do call the visual I am told to follow traffic that is already on final. It is easy to get another airplane already on a final from a base leg, but usually you will loose them on final when there is no reletive movment!

 

[Blue Dude]

Blue:

Good points...I might add that its just as rough behind a heavy who slowed too much to make the left turn off 31R, or has rolled all the way to the end.

Yeah, I didn't mean to pick on the RJ guys specifically, as though they have more of a problem than others. It's just that you're probably following an RJ closer than you would a larger aircraft, especially heavies, so you kind of depend on the smaller aircraft to clear off more quickly.

 

[atcloser]

I fly to JFK quite a bit on my way to upstate. It has gotten as bad as ATL, even in the morning. Usually a 30-45 minute wait to TO. B6 and DL have maxed the place out.

Don't know anything about traffic control, but I would think when the winds are soft enough they could get more use out of 4L & 4R for departures.

imp:​

Departing 4L when we are landing 4R is a nightmare for the tower because of the missed approach for 4R and the SID for 4L, they always have to protect for it. If you dont know the Missed for 4L and the SID for 4L converge because of airspace limitations with LGA airport being 5NM NE of JFK. Furthermore, departing 4's at all is very difficult for TRACON because 1) all a/c come off on the same heading (100 degrees) and 2) we have a major airspace crossing restriction of 11,000 feet for COATE/GAYLE departures about 15 NE of JFK. That is a MUST MUST MUST restriction for us and departing off 4's makes that sometimes impossible.

Bottom line, the aispace over Long Island and Queens is so congested, we just dont have the room to use the 4's for departures as we would like. LGA is the primary reason for this.

 

[atcloser]

I fly in and out of JFK regularly and I try to accept the visual any time that I can. I thought it helped and and wanted to do all that I could to help with the spacing problems. I also try to call airport in sight as early as possible for the same reason. If we can safely maintain our own spacing and just go direct to final visually, it is certainly preferable to going out for a long final.

By the way, how has Delta's introduction of the Dash's impacted the traffic flow?

The Dash 8's have not been as much as a problem as I thought they would be when they first arrived. JFK used to have a ton of props mixed in up until around 9/11, so most of the controllers are pro's at fitting them in with the lines of heavys. They also had the "4L stub" back in the day which we dont have anymore. 90% of the DASH 8's come to use via Deer Park VOR at a low altitude, and if we are on 31's, they most always fit naturally onto 31L (we keep them above 31R traffic and dump them in to 31L with a healthy mix of Deltas and Comairs). 22's are ususally not a problem if we are using VOR/DME 22L and VOR13L. They can create some moderate problems when we are landing 4's or Staggered ILS 22's in bad weather or if we dont have 22 availble when VOR 13L is in use. They usually do about 220-230 knots which helps too.

So all in all, they have not been a problem, to me at least. I count on them to use a visual approach when WX permits and they do a great job following the proceeding aircraft closely.

 

[atcloser]

atcloser... great questions.

You'll come across all sorts of answers for the visuals. I try to take a visual whenever I can, but have flown with Captains that won't take a visual if they don't have to.

About the only thing that makes me uneasy is trying to space myself 5 miles behind a heavy without asistance from ATC. I can roll in on anything and space myself 2 or 3 miles behind. But when I try to roll in on a heavy, I'm more likely to wind up 7 miles behind it instead of 5.

J32 Driver - If we are using visuals and counting on you to follow traffic, most of us will at least leave you 1000 feet above the heavy and then point out the traffic. I undersand it can be hard to get the 5 miles without our assistance, and have seen many A320's, 737's, CRJ's, etc wind up with 7-8 miles behind the heavy which totally messes things up. I will always tell you what the speed is of the A/C ahead and how your indicated speed matches up to prevent that.

xkuzme1- Thanks for the input. Many of us will assign a speed to the marker, but remember, we really cant assign a speed to an aircraft we have told to maintain separation with the proceeding aircraft to. We can tell you what the proceeding a/c's speed is and how your spacing looks, but cannot assign a speed if you are cleared to follow traffic on your own. Many will do it though to keep traffic moving and prevent a heavy from slowing to 150 knots outside of the FAF.

737pylt- There are more holding delays on VFR days simply for volume. On bad IFR days, we have ground delay programs in, which are a sore topic for me, because they release those programs at like 9pm and then the flood gates open and we hold. On VFR days, those programs generally do not go in, and we must work 60-80 arrivals an hour when the capacity is no more than 55 for our best operation (VORDME22L/VOR13L). Do the quick math and you will see why the hold becomes inevitable. Furthermore, they will put in a panic 15-20 miles in trail restriction to the center over CAMRN which causes holding too.

G4G5- Thanks for the input and suggestions. I must question something though. If you dont have the traffic insight, that is fine. If you only have the field in sight and the controller clears you for the visual, the CONTROLLER is still responsible for your separation until crossing the rwy threshold. If you have the traffic in sight, you are responsible for whatever seperation you feel you need. In other words, there are 2 types of visual approachs, mandated by the 7110.65. 1) Pilot reports the airport - controller clears him for visual, controller is still responsible for providing necessary separation (3,4,5,6 miles, whatever the case may be), and pilot can proceed on his own nav to the airport regardless of other traffic. 2) Pilot reports proceeding traffic - controller no longer responsible for the in trail separation, up to the pilot to follow it. As for the speeds (250K below 10K), some pilots do during slow periods, but most of the time these days, because of volume, we dont let them. They get get a crossing restriction at CAMRN of 250knots. We will tell NY Center to feed us "Speed up" at CAMRN, or 250 knots.
out of habit?

Bluedude- That is not good info you are telling me about your SOP change in a few weeks. We count on JBU to go high speed until the FAF. Recently, we have seen a lot of JBU's slowing way back way to early, and causing significant problems with the traffic behind them. I am happy to be aware of this new change though, and will pass that along.

Hope I answered everyone's questions, would love more feedback on what we can do for you...

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

I'm totally ok with the Dash-8s doing their approach and landings on 31L. What I'm not ok with is the fact that controllers are allowing 31L landings by the Dash-8s, Comair RJs and a high number of Delta jets when I'm number 35 for takeoff on 31L. I understand the requirement on getting planes out of the sky, but when we're fuel limited to the west coast for winds, or if I'm crossing the Atlantic, nothing burns me more than to have to wait for a -8 to land on 31L when the conga line is that long for departure!!!

 

[brainhurts]

I'm totally ok with the Dash-8s doing their approach and landings on 31L. What I'm not ok with is the fact that controllers are allowing 31L landings by the Dash-8s, Comair RJs and a high number of Delta jets when I'm number 35 for takeoff on 31L. I understand the requirement on getting planes out of the sky, but when we're fuel limited to the west coast for winds, or if I'm crossing the Atlantic, nothing burns me more than to have to wait for a -8 to land on 31L when the conga line is that long for departure!!!

Agreed. And how about the 1/2 full dash 8's and 50 seaters in line in front of you? The point being that JFK will soon need to be limited to "76 seat" flying. The dash 8's and 50 seat RJs need to be limited or have higher landing fees. I picked "76 seat" flying out of the air but there is no more real estate for JFK to slip in another runway, so they are going to have to limit the real estate. The airport authority should be no stranger to this. Since they ran out of employee parking, they now have decreed that your car can not stay in the employee lot for more than 6 days at a time, or you get towed. Its the same concept. Get rid of the vehicles that are clogging up the real estate.

 

[lowecur]

Bottom line, the aispace over Long Island and Queens is so congested, we just dont have the room to use the 4's for departures as we would like. LGA is the primary reason for this.

Sounds to me like an extra parallel wouldn't even help if airspace is that tight. The only way this problem gets solved is the restricted use of 50< a/c. You have to force the carriers to put 2 or 3 mainliners per day on routes in lieu of 8 or 9 Dash 8's or RJs. Cities the size of ROC, SYR, ALB all have 15-25 flts per day to the NYC area using this type of a/c. Frequency is marketed at the expense of delays throughout the system. This is a midair catastrophe waiting to happen.

Jetblue is close to 190 flts per day now, and will increase to 260 when the new terminal opens. Did you notice how quickly B6 ramped up extra flts out of JFK once DL announced their buildup? Restrictive decisions could be made at JFK based on the date service was initiated. It's my guess that if the proposed merger of US/DL goes through, the new combined carrier will focus on JFK for NE international ops. What a mess.

imp:​

 

[Longhorn]

atcloser,

As for us slowing, it has been an issue. I was asked about a month ago to give the tower sup a call after a landing. (btw, scared the heck out of me, I wish they would have told me it was nothing when they gave me a number). The issue was exactly the what bluejuice was referring to. We kept our speed up as long as possible for 31R. 200 to zulab and then had to start slowing to be stable by 1000agl. I was on the 320 for 18 months and it was easy to keep the speed up as long as possible to help out as long as you were stabilized are by 500 vmc/day and 1000 imc/night. Now, I am on the 190 and its 1000 all the time so we have to start slowing. To add to the problem is that the 190 has a slightly slower approach speed than the 320 and much slower than the CRJ's out there so the 190 can cause some problems as well. I was asked about why we were always slowing early by the tower sup and I explained this to him. He sounded suprised as he did not know that the 190's had a slower appch speed and had to be stable by 1000. The guy was actually really nice about it but said that when we slowed we forced some vectoring for a heavy behind us. So, are you noticing this with the 190's at all and how are you guys adapting to them.

 

[ExpWayVis31]

atcloser,

Over in ORD traffic saturation is also an issue. In ORD the policy is that YOU WILL do 250kts until told to do otherwise. ORD controllers seem to do a better job of maintaining interval/speed control on final.

Part of the problem at JFK are those heavies from the other side of the pond that I see flying over my house in Huntington with there gear hanging down and dragging it in....don't they know that gas is expensive?

I hope things are going well, I haven't been by for a visit since supervisor R.R. left some 10 years ago.

I also think that getting controllers FAM jump seats back would help.

 

[atcloser]

I'm totally ok with the Dash-8s doing their approach and landings on 31L. What I'm not ok with is the fact that controllers are allowing 31L landings by the Dash-8s, Comair RJs and a high number of Delta jets when I'm number 35 for takeoff on 31L. I understand the requirement on getting planes out of the sky, but when we're fuel limited to the west coast for winds, or if I'm crossing the Atlantic, nothing burns me more than to have to wait for a -8 to land on 31L when the conga line is that long for departure!!!

Blue Bayou, I understand your sentiment. This is a big issue for us too. We have carte blanche on 31L from about 230pm-530pm, when our major arrival push goes on each day - we average about 200 arrivals in those 3 hours usually. In that case 31L is a necessity. After 530pm, the tower ususally takes 31L from us for the departure rush at 6pm-9pm. However, around 7-8, we get a huge arrival push, and are forced to put some a/c on 31L. There is a big debate over favoring arrivals vs departures at that time, we see it as the arrivals are airborne and need to land, especially with the huge jump in fuel emergencies and min fuels lately... But we are aware of the conga line for departure as well.

 

[atcloser]

atcloser,

As for us slowing, it has been an issue. I was asked about a month ago to give the tower sup a call after a landing. (btw, scared the heck out of me, I wish they would have told me it was nothing when they gave me a number). The issue was exactly the what bluejuice was referring to. We kept our speed up as long as possible for 31R. 200 to zulab and then had to start slowing to be stable by 1000agl. I was on the 320 for 18 months and it was easy to keep the speed up as long as possible to help out as long as you were stabilized are by 500 vmc/day and 1000 imc/night. Now, I am on the 190 and its 1000 all the time so we have to start slowing. To add to the problem is that the 190 has a slightly slower approach speed than the 320 and much slower than the CRJ's out there so the 190 can cause some problems as well. I was asked about why we were always slowing early by the tower sup and I explained this to him. He sounded suprised as he did not know that the 190's had a slower appch speed and had to be stable by 1000. The guy was actually really nice about it but said that when we slowed we forced some vectoring for a heavy behind us. So, are you noticing this with the 190's at all and how are you guys adapting to them.

Longhorn, yes we have noticed the E190's slowing prematurely and some of us has planned around it. I must admit it has caused some good problems for us on occassion when we are banking on the JBU flight (E190 or A320) to keep it fast when trying to shove you in front of a slow heavy jet from ROBER. After being burnt several times by an E190 slowing without being told or slowing way too much on final, I sometimes plan my operation on final differently.

 

[atcloser]

atcloser,

Over in ORD traffic saturation is also an issue. In ORD the policy is that YOU WILL do 250kts until told to do otherwise. ORD controllers seem to do a better job of maintaining interval/speed control on final.

Part of the problem at JFK are those heavies from the other side of the pond that I see flying over my house in Huntington with there gear hanging down and dragging it in....don't they know that gas is expensive?

I hope things are going well, I haven't been by for a visit since supervisor R.R. left some 10 years ago.

I also think that getting controllers FAM jump seats back would help.

XwayVis31, I wish we could have a 250knot policy at JFK. The foreigners and heavies wont do it for us though. There are a few carriers from over the pond who slow to 180 25 miles from the airport without telling us, and its a pain in the neck to work out esepcially when busy. There are other US carriers, no names mentioned, who fly 757's mostly, who do the same, and also slow to buck speed on the localizers. Causes major problems as well.

ORD controllers can do a better job at intervals and speed control as their finals are already lined up for them from the center. You guys get put on the localizers 40 miles from the airport there with 10 mile gaps, ORD fills those gaps later on, and do a very good job at it. At JFK, we dont know your sequence most of the time until the last 15-20 miles of your flight. That is due to airspace constraints. When you fly into JFK, you we be sequenced by up to 3 different feeder controllers in 4 different places depending on the flow. We dont have airspace to be turning people on the loc 50 miles from the airport, and must decide at the last minute where to put you and then make it work, which can be challenging.

 

[fandango]

Thanks atcloser

This has been great info, atcloser. Ive learned alot. I am with an airline that just opened a base at JFK. I used to fly there with another airline, but now am with not only alot of new guys, but we are now in a 738. The 800 is terrible at vnaving to next crossing restrictions while maintaining airspeed. It seems to like to do one or the other, but has a devil of a time doing both. We have to give the box alot of false tailwinds, tell it the anti-ice will be on for the duration, etc etc.
I prefer the vis as stated by most in the above posts. Makes it alot easier to get the plane configured how y'all need our speed in a more timely manner. Our specs say we are to be fully stabilized by 500 when vmc, 1000 imc. Problem is, until all our new guys get oe done and a little time in the plane, thats pretty late.

Thanks again for your time and communication. This is the kind of stuff I was hoping for on FI.

 

[Blue Dude]

atcloser, I think the reason you've been burned by the JB 190's on occasion is because you expect them to behave the same way as the 320's. But the 190's have had the 1000' stable criteria from the beginning of their ops, while the 320's have been trucking in at 200 kts at 2000' to the marker. It's been decided to rationalize the operations of the fleets to have the SOP's as common as possible, so the 320 stable criteria will be changed to match the 190 limits. I think it happened in that way in the interest of safety, as it's more conservative to be stable earlier than later.

Don't worry, we'll still help, but we might have to slow to 180 at the marker instead of 200 to make sure it all works out by 1000 ft. Hope this helps.

 

[T-prop]

The Dash 8's have not been as much as a problem as I thought they would be when they first arrived. JFK used to have a ton of props mixed in up until around 9/11, so most of the controllers are pro's at fitting them in with the lines of heavys. They also had the "4L stub" back in the day which we dont have anymore. 90% of the DASH 8's come to use via Deer Park VOR at a low altitude, and if we are on 31's, they most always fit naturally onto 31L (we keep them above 31R traffic and dump them in to 31L with a healthy mix of Deltas and Comairs). 22's are ususally not a problem if we are using VOR/DME 22L and VOR13L. They can create some moderate problems when we are landing 4's or Staggered ILS 22's in bad weather or if we dont have 22 availble when VOR 13L is in use. They usually do about 220-230 knots which helps too.

I know we are slow, I almost wet myself with joy the other day when we "overtook" a Cessna 340.

Since, we have no problem slowing down it can be used as an advantage.

The Dash is able to do 140 kts from the marker to 200' slow to 100 kts by the threshold and still making the first taxiway 2000' down the runway all while being "stabilized." Since most guys on the Dash are new to the airplane and airspace it will take a few months for us to be as flexible as the Dash is capable with visuals.

We have been requested to do 180 to a five mile final, which if we follow the GS violates our 1500' AFL gear down policy. The problem being, we need to slow to a painful 158 kts for gear speed and be fully configured for flaps 35 (148kts max) by 1000' feet.

When I have been requested to do a 180 kts to a 5 mile final @ about 6-7 miles I get the gear down and configure, but I try to make up the lost speed by doing 140 kts to at least 500' and still exit the rwy as fast as possible. Which has kept me from getting yelled at.

I have e-mailed our Chief Pilot and head of training about the possibility of lowering the 1500' gear down policy to 1000'. Thereby, granting us the ability to do 180kts to a 5 mile final for ya. We have yet to hear anything back.

While I'm on here, many times our "expected approach" has changed 2-4 times during the last 15 minutes of the flight. I know this is mostly due to our type and speed of our aircraft. This causes a lot of chaos in our office, can and will lead to violations or loss of separation. Furthermore, we also get some erradic speed requests from ATC especially when we get handed off, one guy tell us 230kts as he hands us off to the next controller and when we check on with the new controller he wants us at 150kts and will often give us a new approach to expect.

I know we are an odd piece to fit into the puzzle, but is there any way ya'll can put the type of approach the turbo-props can expect on ATIS, as well as communicating better with eachother prior to the hand-off.

Thanks for posting.

 

[atcloser]

I know we are slow, I almost wet myself with joy the other day when we "overtook" a Cessna 340.

Since, we have no problem slowing down it can be used as an advantage.

The Dash is able to do 140 kts from the marker to 200' slow to 100 kts by the threshold and still making the first taxiway 2000' down the runway all while being "stabilized." Since most guys on the Dash are new to the airplane and airspace it will take a few months for us to be as flexible as the Dash is capable with visuals.

We have been requested to do 180 to a five mile final, which if we follow the GS violates our 1500' AFL gear down policy. The problem being, we need to slow to a painful 158 kts for gear speed and be fully configured for flaps 35 (148kts max) by 1000' feet.

When I have been requested to do a 180 kts to a 5 mile final @ about 6-7 miles I get the gear down and configure, but I try to make up the lost speed by doing 140 kts to at least 500' and still exit the rwy as fast as possible. Which has kept me from getting yelled at.

I have e-mailed our Chief Pilot and head of training about the possibility of lowering the 1500' gear down policy to 1000'. Thereby, granting us the ability to do 180kts to a 5 mile final for ya. We have yet to hear anything back.

While I'm on here, many times our "expected approach" has changed 2-4 times during the last 15 minutes of the flight. I know this is mostly due to our type and speed of our aircraft. This causes a lot of chaos in our office, can and will lead to violations or loss of separation. Furthermore, we also get some erradic speed requests from ATC especially when we get handed off, one guy tell us 230kts as he hands us off to the next controller and when we check on with the new controller he wants us at 150kts and will often give us a new approach to expect.

I know we are an odd piece to fit into the puzzle, but is there any way ya'll can put the type of approach the turbo-props can expect on ATIS, as well as communicating better with eachother prior to the hand-off.

Thanks for posting.

TPROP, check your PM's.

 

[J32driver]

Best thread I've seen on Flight Info EVAR!

atcloser.... I doubt you will notice much of a difference from the 320's when the new procures go into effect. We can do prettymuch anything you ask and I always manage to be pretty much stable by 1000' agl. In the bus, 180 knots is really easy to keep until about 1500 agl. Anything more than that and it gets really challenging because of flap speeds and not having enough drag to slow down quickly without almost leveling off.

Since we are on the topic of how to help each other, how about getting a full time metering freq. for JFK ground? Call metering, and then monitor ground and wait for a call. That way we aren't stepping all over each other trying to get our name in the hat. This one change would do WONDERS for everyone!

 

[Blue Dude]

Since we are on the topic of how to help each other, how about getting a full time metering freq. for JFK ground? Call metering, and then monitor ground and wait for a call.

I thought that's what 121.9 is when it gets busy. Call 121.9 to let 'em know you're ready, and monitor 121.65 for taxi clearance.

 

[Longhorn]

Best thread I've seen on Flight Info EVAR!

Sssshhhhhhh, dont jinx it