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Question for those of you who fly in or out JFK

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I'll take the visuals when ever I can because I realise that it helps everyone out.

I like it when an approach controller instructs (if a possable visual is called):
Maintain xxx (180) to the marker, traffic ahead is a 757 and also assigned 180 to the marker.

That helps for spacing. If given that speed, I feel that I can call the visual easier becasue I dont have to guess what I will need for the spacing.

What I do not like doing is calling the visual on a base leg. It seems that whenever I do call the visual I am told to follow traffic that is already on final. It is easy to get another airplane already on a final from a base leg, but usually you will loose them on final when there is no reletive movment!
 
Blue:

Good points...I might add that its just as rough behind a heavy who slowed too much to make the left turn off 31R, or has rolled all the way to the end.

Yeah, I didn't mean to pick on the RJ guys specifically, as though they have more of a problem than others. It's just that you're probably following an RJ closer than you would a larger aircraft, especially heavies, so you kind of depend on the smaller aircraft to clear off more quickly.
 
I fly to JFK quite a bit on my way to upstate. It has gotten as bad as ATL, even in the morning. Usually a 30-45 minute wait to TO. B6 and DL have maxed the place out.

Don't know anything about traffic control, but I would think when the winds are soft enough they could get more use out of 4L & 4R for departures.

:pimp:​

Departing 4L when we are landing 4R is a nightmare for the tower because of the missed approach for 4R and the SID for 4L, they always have to protect for it. If you dont know the Missed for 4L and the SID for 4L converge because of airspace limitations with LGA airport being 5NM NE of JFK. Furthermore, departing 4's at all is very difficult for TRACON because 1) all a/c come off on the same heading (100 degrees) and 2) we have a major airspace crossing restriction of 11,000 feet for COATE/GAYLE departures about 15 NE of JFK. That is a MUST MUST MUST restriction for us and departing off 4's makes that sometimes impossible.

Bottom line, the aispace over Long Island and Queens is so congested, we just dont have the room to use the 4's for departures as we would like. LGA is the primary reason for this.
 
I fly in and out of JFK regularly and I try to accept the visual any time that I can. I thought it helped and and wanted to do all that I could to help with the spacing problems. I also try to call airport in sight as early as possible for the same reason. If we can safely maintain our own spacing and just go direct to final visually, it is certainly preferable to going out for a long final.

By the way, how has Delta's introduction of the Dash's impacted the traffic flow?

The Dash 8's have not been as much as a problem as I thought they would be when they first arrived. JFK used to have a ton of props mixed in up until around 9/11, so most of the controllers are pro's at fitting them in with the lines of heavys. They also had the "4L stub" back in the day which we dont have anymore. 90% of the DASH 8's come to use via Deer Park VOR at a low altitude, and if we are on 31's, they most always fit naturally onto 31L (we keep them above 31R traffic and dump them in to 31L with a healthy mix of Deltas and Comairs). 22's are ususally not a problem if we are using VOR/DME 22L and VOR13L. They can create some moderate problems when we are landing 4's or Staggered ILS 22's in bad weather or if we dont have 22 availble when VOR 13L is in use. They usually do about 220-230 knots which helps too.

So all in all, they have not been a problem, to me at least. I count on them to use a visual approach when WX permits and they do a great job following the proceeding aircraft closely.
 
atcloser... great questions.

You'll come across all sorts of answers for the visuals. I try to take a visual whenever I can, but have flown with Captains that won't take a visual if they don't have to.

About the only thing that makes me uneasy is trying to space myself 5 miles behind a heavy without asistance from ATC. I can roll in on anything and space myself 2 or 3 miles behind. But when I try to roll in on a heavy, I'm more likely to wind up 7 miles behind it instead of 5.


J32 Driver - If we are using visuals and counting on you to follow traffic, most of us will at least leave you 1000 feet above the heavy and then point out the traffic. I undersand it can be hard to get the 5 miles without our assistance, and have seen many A320's, 737's, CRJ's, etc wind up with 7-8 miles behind the heavy which totally messes things up. I will always tell you what the speed is of the A/C ahead and how your indicated speed matches up to prevent that.

xkuzme1- Thanks for the input. Many of us will assign a speed to the marker, but remember, we really cant assign a speed to an aircraft we have told to maintain separation with the proceeding aircraft to. We can tell you what the proceeding a/c's speed is and how your spacing looks, but cannot assign a speed if you are cleared to follow traffic on your own. Many will do it though to keep traffic moving and prevent a heavy from slowing to 150 knots outside of the FAF.

737pylt- There are more holding delays on VFR days simply for volume. On bad IFR days, we have ground delay programs in, which are a sore topic for me, because they release those programs at like 9pm and then the flood gates open and we hold. On VFR days, those programs generally do not go in, and we must work 60-80 arrivals an hour when the capacity is no more than 55 for our best operation (VORDME22L/VOR13L). Do the quick math and you will see why the hold becomes inevitable. Furthermore, they will put in a panic 15-20 miles in trail restriction to the center over CAMRN which causes holding too.

G4G5- Thanks for the input and suggestions. I must question something though. If you dont have the traffic insight, that is fine. If you only have the field in sight and the controller clears you for the visual, the CONTROLLER is still responsible for your separation until crossing the rwy threshold. If you have the traffic in sight, you are responsible for whatever seperation you feel you need. In other words, there are 2 types of visual approachs, mandated by the 7110.65. 1) Pilot reports the airport - controller clears him for visual, controller is still responsible for providing necessary separation (3,4,5,6 miles, whatever the case may be), and pilot can proceed on his own nav to the airport regardless of other traffic. 2) Pilot reports proceeding traffic - controller no longer responsible for the in trail separation, up to the pilot to follow it. As for the speeds (250K below 10K), some pilots do during slow periods, but most of the time these days, because of volume, we dont let them. They get get a crossing restriction at CAMRN of 250knots. We will tell NY Center to feed us "Speed up" at CAMRN, or 250 knots.
out of habit?

Bluedude- That is not good info you are telling me about your SOP change in a few weeks. We count on JBU to go high speed until the FAF. Recently, we have seen a lot of JBU's slowing way back way to early, and causing significant problems with the traffic behind them. I am happy to be aware of this new change though, and will pass that along.

Hope I answered everyone's questions, would love more feedback on what we can do for you...
 
I'm totally ok with the Dash-8s doing their approach and landings on 31L. What I'm not ok with is the fact that controllers are allowing 31L landings by the Dash-8s, Comair RJs and a high number of Delta jets when I'm number 35 for takeoff on 31L. I understand the requirement on getting planes out of the sky, but when we're fuel limited to the west coast for winds, or if I'm crossing the Atlantic, nothing burns me more than to have to wait for a -8 to land on 31L when the conga line is that long for departure!!!
 
I'm totally ok with the Dash-8s doing their approach and landings on 31L. What I'm not ok with is the fact that controllers are allowing 31L landings by the Dash-8s, Comair RJs and a high number of Delta jets when I'm number 35 for takeoff on 31L. I understand the requirement on getting planes out of the sky, but when we're fuel limited to the west coast for winds, or if I'm crossing the Atlantic, nothing burns me more than to have to wait for a -8 to land on 31L when the conga line is that long for departure!!!
Agreed. And how about the 1/2 full dash 8's and 50 seaters in line in front of you? The point being that JFK will soon need to be limited to "76 seat" flying. The dash 8's and 50 seat RJs need to be limited or have higher landing fees. I picked "76 seat" flying out of the air but there is no more real estate for JFK to slip in another runway, so they are going to have to limit the real estate. The airport authority should be no stranger to this. Since they ran out of employee parking, they now have decreed that your car can not stay in the employee lot for more than 6 days at a time, or you get towed. Its the same concept. Get rid of the vehicles that are clogging up the real estate.
 
Bottom line, the aispace over Long Island and Queens is so congested, we just dont have the room to use the 4's for departures as we would like. LGA is the primary reason for this.
Sounds to me like an extra parallel wouldn't even help if airspace is that tight. The only way this problem gets solved is the restricted use of 50< a/c. You have to force the carriers to put 2 or 3 mainliners per day on routes in lieu of 8 or 9 Dash 8's or RJs. Cities the size of ROC, SYR, ALB all have 15-25 flts per day to the NYC area using this type of a/c. Frequency is marketed at the expense of delays throughout the system. This is a midair catastrophe waiting to happen.

Jetblue is close to 190 flts per day now, and will increase to 260 when the new terminal opens. Did you notice how quickly B6 ramped up extra flts out of JFK once DL announced their buildup? Restrictive decisions could be made at JFK based on the date service was initiated. It's my guess that if the proposed merger of US/DL goes through, the new combined carrier will focus on JFK for NE international ops. What a mess.

:pimp:​
 
atcloser,

As for us slowing, it has been an issue. I was asked about a month ago to give the tower sup a call after a landing. (btw, scared the heck out of me, I wish they would have told me it was nothing when they gave me a number). The issue was exactly the what bluejuice was referring to. We kept our speed up as long as possible for 31R. 200 to zulab and then had to start slowing to be stable by 1000agl. I was on the 320 for 18 months and it was easy to keep the speed up as long as possible to help out as long as you were stabilized are by 500 vmc/day and 1000 imc/night. Now, I am on the 190 and its 1000 all the time so we have to start slowing. To add to the problem is that the 190 has a slightly slower approach speed than the 320 and much slower than the CRJ's out there so the 190 can cause some problems as well. I was asked about why we were always slowing early by the tower sup and I explained this to him. He sounded suprised as he did not know that the 190's had a slower appch speed and had to be stable by 1000. The guy was actually really nice about it but said that when we slowed we forced some vectoring for a heavy behind us. So, are you noticing this with the 190's at all and how are you guys adapting to them.
 
atcloser,

Over in ORD traffic saturation is also an issue. In ORD the policy is that YOU WILL do 250kts until told to do otherwise. ORD controllers seem to do a better job of maintaining interval/speed control on final.

Part of the problem at JFK are those heavies from the other side of the pond that I see flying over my house in Huntington with there gear hanging down and dragging it in....don't they know that gas is expensive?

I hope things are going well, I haven't been by for a visit since supervisor R.R. left some 10 years ago.

I also think that getting controllers FAM jump seats back would help.
 

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