Question for ATC

[atcloser]

CHPERPLT- i've never INSTRUCTED a pilot to go fast less than 12NM offshore, i've certainly told them it was up to them if they wanted to, but never made it a clearance, nor would i, unless absolutely necessary for safety. i am not sure why that ATC was in such a rush to get your speed up, could be there was a WAVEY from LGA or FRG that was already airborne before you approaching 10000 feet, but it was still easier to put you in front, that would be the only reason i can think of.


de727ups - i dont really care about speeds in the Class B, if a jet slows to or does not accelerate about 200 knots for the Bravo in NY, it would cause all kinds of problems. i've never heard of anyone in my facility getting on a pilot for speed in the bravo. at JFK, while vectoring for the approaches to 22L/R, there is a piece of bravo airspace from 70/40 over FRG, and we descend sometimes to 30 with IFR's in that airspace, although technically, if we do this, we are supposed to tell the IFR, "leaving NY Bravo airspace." we dont.

 

[cougar6903]

Atcloser, Since the topic of NYC Class B has already been brought up....


What are the chances of getting VFR flight following coming across the south shore of LI and north up the vfr hudson corridor, then back east over the north shore of LI? What day of the week and time, if any, is my best bet ?? I was thinking a week day around noon would be the time you guys are the least busy? Thanks for all your help. Coug

 

[ATCER]

ATCER

Yes, told to "go as fast as we can" below 10,000. Told the contoller we were at 250 and he said "I know you're at 250, I need you to go as fast as you can now." The controller had urgency in his voice.

atcloser

We were going to Wavey and not even close to 12 miles off shore.

I see you are a CRJ FO... I assume you were going to ATL ??? WAVEY.J174 ??? When you depart that way you fly through some of the most complex airspace anywhere... The room (N90) has to make some quick moves in some tight airspace to get you headed out to WAVEY... once on with ZNY climbing towards WAVEY you're in a sector in my area which has a lot happening... we receive multiple departures over WAVEY from JFK, FRG, and LGA. This traffic must be turned southwest (generally a 200 or 210 heading) to join the airway, at the same time we have the ISP inbounds (SWA), numerous other Long Island Inbounds, PHL arrivals (USAir, SWA) JFK and EWR arrivals from Oceanic, which is all climbing and descending head on. Not to mention overflights and Military flights (tankers, etc.) out of McGuire.

Now... the #1 rule is to keep the departures climbing... nothing is worse then having to stop someone's climb, the faster we can get you up, over the inbounds, and off to the next sector the better.

As for turning guys in... I can't speak about the speeds because we have nothing to do with the class B...

 

[atcloser]

MIKE1MC- not sure. i dont work at the EWR sector, and am not real familiar with that approach. maybe they are restating the restrictions because they involve avoiding other airspace, and they just want to reiterate it. i dont even know any of those fixes, so i am certainly not qualified to answer.


COUGAR- almost anytime would be good for VFR flight following as long as your remain below the Bravo. if you are coming from the east, you could call 125.7 (near FRG), they will most likely tell you to stay below to B, and hand you off to JFK Tower, who will probably hand you off to LGA Tower (or terminate you and have you go to the Hud River unicom). Going back east along the North shore, LGA tower would hand you back off to 125.7, who would hand you to 118.0 if going toward ISP. again, this is all below the floor. Getting CLASS B for that route is unlikely as JFK approach would need you high, and LGA approach would want you low. i've seen it happen, but it takes a lot of coordination...I would say if you are looking for a Class B clearance for that route, do it in the AM (before noon) or after 8pm, anyday but Fri or Sunday. later would prob be better in fact. JFK is slow before 12pm, but LGA is hopping all day until later in the evening. again,the best way is below to Bravo.

 

[metrodriver]

Here is something different: you fly on a published airway and you see a big thunderstorm dead ahead over the airway and your still 40 NM away from it. I would ask at that point for a deviation of say 10 degrees. I was flying with another pilot recently who stayed on the airway till 20 NM away and asked at that point for a 20 degree deviation. When I asked why he waited so long before deviation his answer was: I have been instructed to fly this airway so I'll stay on it till I absolutely cannot continue anymore. My opinion is that the sooner ATC knows that you have to deviate, and the smaller the deviation, the better it works for them to keep you clear from other traffic.
Who is right? (or what is the best way to do this?)

 

[chperplt]

I see you are a CRJ FO... I assume you were going to ATL ???

We were going to ROA.

If separation is going to sh!t or you feel a potential situation may arise, are you (ATC) authorized to give me greater than 250 below 10, less than 12 off shore? Obviously the controller wanted us to go fast, but what if a higher-up was watching the screen or listening to the freq. Wouldn't it be possible for both the controller and the crew to get nailed?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

well, from what I understand, if ATC tells you to exceed the 250kt rule under 100, then your perfectly legal. You can always say unable

91.117 - unless otherwise autorized by the administrator no one my operate an ac under 10000 above 250kts.

definition of administrator Part 1: Defs and Abbrvs
Administrator means the Federal Aviation Adminstrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned. Air Traffic Controllers have been delegated the authority by the admin.

 

[Brett Hull]

Let me throw a little comon sense comment in here (well, we are talking about the FAA - what common sense ). Assuming you're below 10K, if all it takes is for a controller to say "Go as fast as you can", why did the FAA go through all of the trouble to issue the waiver to the Houston Tracon for their "No speed limit" program, and why isn't it being used elsewhere?

And how busy can I expect EWR to be this afternoon (Sunday), arriving around 1900 lcl and leaving about an hour later? Should I be expecting any major delays?

Thanks guys!

 

[atcloser]

brett has a good point there. although, i do agree with lrjcaptain, i understand that we do have the authority to let people break the 250 knot rule if needed. again, i wouldnt do it unless absolutely necessary, or for aircraft performance, but it is possible.


also brett, if you are speaking about flying into EWR today, sunday, i would expect major delays. the weather is awful outside, and sunday is N90's busiest day in my opinion, especially in the later evening hours.

 

[chperplt]

i understand that we do have the authority to let people break the 250 knot rule if needed.

I've heard that you do not. How do we find out for sure?

 

[cheater1239]

ATC is not delegated the authority to permit speed increases above 250 below ten.

search 91.117 on doc's far forum for the final answer

 

[cheater1239]

here's the cut and paste from doc's, also answers the under class B issue... go faster if the A/C needs it no call no clearance





The rules regarding aircraft speed are contained in FAR 91.117. I will break this rule down into its parts and then answer your questions:

FAR 91.117 (with commentary):

"(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 mph)."

Comments: The "Administrator" is not ATC, and ATC has no authority to either approve or request speeds in excess of 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet MSL.

If the minimum safe speed for the operation requires a higher speed, the aircraft may be flown at that speed (see paragraph (d) below). Note that there is no requirement to request this speed or to advise ATC that you require this speed.

There is a test program at IAH (Houston) to allow speed in excess of 250 KIAS in the Houston Class B, but only for departures. It is published as a Notam via a change that was made through the exemption process (e.g. as approved by the Administrator).

As noted in paragraph (b) below, the rules for Class B airspace areas are the same as in pargraph (a). So ATC cannot waive this speed limit in Class B, except if authorized by the Administrator (e.g. as in the case of IAH).



"(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section."

Comments: You cannot exceed 200 KIAS within 4 nm of the primary airport of a Class C or D airspace area if you are at or below 2500 feet above the surface. However, ATC can approve a higher speed.

Note that this does not apply in all of Class C (or D) airspace. It only applies within the stated distance and height limits.

Note that the Class B limit is as per paragraph (a), so ATC has no authority to waive the Class B limit.

As with the other limits, you can exceed this speed if the minimum safe speed is in excess of the limit. A courtesy call is a good idea, but you do not need to make one, nor do you need to request the higher speed from ATC.



"(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph)."

Comments: The only relief from this rule is when the minimum safe speed for the operation is higher than 200 KIAS. ATC cannot waive it. No need to request the speed or to advise ATC.


"(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed."

Comments: You can fly the minimum safe speed without requesting it, and without advising ATC. In the case of needing to exceed 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet MSL or in CLass B, just make an advisory call if desired. No need to request the higher speed -- ATC cannot grant your request... As noted above, a call to the controller would be a thing to consider, as the controller will then be able to plan for yor speed, thus assisting him to separate traffic.


Your questions:

"Q 1. ATC requests best foward speed while below class B. What would you do?"

A: Fly 200 KIAS or less, unless the minimum safe speed was higher.


"Q 2. On departure (below 10) ATC says " delete 250 restriction or climb unrestricted or high speed climb approved". What to do?"

Unless you are in the IAH Class B airspace area, the controller cannot delete the 250 KIAS limit. If the controller tells you that high speed is approved, you should fly 250 KIAS or less until reaching 10,000 feet in the climb, then maintain best forward speed. Or fly the minimum safe airspeed until reaching 10,000 feet, then best forward speed at or above 10,000 ft MSL

 

[atcloser]

thanks for the info. i see the only way we can approve above 250kts is 12NM offshore...for fixes such as WAVEY and SHIPP off JFK.

 

[SCT]

I don't know if ATC is legally allowed to authorize speeds greater then 250knts below 10,000. But I did have a request from SAV approach for best foward speed one morning when we were level at 7 or 8,000. We verified his request and pushed the throttles up (which wasn't much of a difference below 8000 on a X).

 

[chperplt]

Confusing stuff, huh??