Question for ATC

[jergar999]

As long as we are on the ATC topic, I would like to say thank you to all the controllers. I know I can get cranky, ask annoying questions, or just in general be difficult, but I always appreciate the job you do and am grateful you are there with your eyes on things.

 

[cheater1239]

the request for "high speed" when needed for A/C performance is a wasted call. no clearance needed to fly at whatever min speed is needed for operational reasons... 91.117

 

[chperplt]

When did you transition to greater than 250 KIAS? Above 10,000? No problem. 91.117 applies. What if a controller asked you to fly into a mountain? They've done it and pilots have followed the instructions, of course not on purpose but controller mistake. Would you shoot an approach to below minimums if the controller asked you too? COME ON? WHO'S FLYING THE AIRPLANE AND WHO'S LICENSE IS AT STAKE?

No need to talk to me like I'm a 2 year old with no experience.

ATCER

Yes, told to "go as fast as we can" below 10,000. Told the contoller we were at 250 and he said "I know you're at 250, I need you to go as fast as you can now." The controller had urgency in his voice.

atcloser

We were going to Wavey and not even close to 12 miles off shore.

 

[de727ups]

"no clearance needed to fly at whatever min speed is needed for operational reasons... 91.117"

We had a discussion not long ago about the 200 knots below a class B rule. General consensus was that on climbout under a class B, you had to keep some flaps out, stay slow, and comply with the rule. This assumes that clean manuovering speed is a little more than 200K. A couple of guys even said some ATC facilities had violated guys for this.

I think only an exceptionally anal controller would worry about these things. It's kinda like LAS approach violating a guy for slightly leaving the class B if you stay on the G/S on a visual into 25....but I've heard it's happened.

What do you ATC guys think?

 

[mike1mc]

Got anopther question for you guys in N90. We were having a discussion about the VOR/DME-A into Teterboro. Typically the approach controller will clear you for the approach by stating:

"Maintain WANES at 3000, CLIFO at 2000, Cleared for the VOR/DME-A"

Some guys want to argue that this clearance relieves you from the 2500 ft restriction at JAYMO. This seems to be poor phrasing for an approach clearance. Why not just "Cleared for the VOR/DME-A"? All the restrictions are clearly defined on the approach plate.

The 2500' restriction keeps you out of the Caldwell (CDW) Class D airspace while on the approach, and I see guys busting the airspace all the time. Looking for any comments.

 

[atcloser]

CHPERPLT- i've never INSTRUCTED a pilot to go fast less than 12NM offshore, i've certainly told them it was up to them if they wanted to, but never made it a clearance, nor would i, unless absolutely necessary for safety. i am not sure why that ATC was in such a rush to get your speed up, could be there was a WAVEY from LGA or FRG that was already airborne before you approaching 10000 feet, but it was still easier to put you in front, that would be the only reason i can think of.


de727ups - i dont really care about speeds in the Class B, if a jet slows to or does not accelerate about 200 knots for the Bravo in NY, it would cause all kinds of problems. i've never heard of anyone in my facility getting on a pilot for speed in the bravo. at JFK, while vectoring for the approaches to 22L/R, there is a piece of bravo airspace from 70/40 over FRG, and we descend sometimes to 30 with IFR's in that airspace, although technically, if we do this, we are supposed to tell the IFR, "leaving NY Bravo airspace." we dont.

 

[cougar6903]

Atcloser, Since the topic of NYC Class B has already been brought up....


What are the chances of getting VFR flight following coming across the south shore of LI and north up the vfr hudson corridor, then back east over the north shore of LI? What day of the week and time, if any, is my best bet ?? I was thinking a week day around noon would be the time you guys are the least busy? Thanks for all your help. Coug

 

[ATCER]

ATCER

Yes, told to "go as fast as we can" below 10,000. Told the contoller we were at 250 and he said "I know you're at 250, I need you to go as fast as you can now." The controller had urgency in his voice.

atcloser

We were going to Wavey and not even close to 12 miles off shore.

I see you are a CRJ FO... I assume you were going to ATL ??? WAVEY.J174 ??? When you depart that way you fly through some of the most complex airspace anywhere... The room (N90) has to make some quick moves in some tight airspace to get you headed out to WAVEY... once on with ZNY climbing towards WAVEY you're in a sector in my area which has a lot happening... we receive multiple departures over WAVEY from JFK, FRG, and LGA. This traffic must be turned southwest (generally a 200 or 210 heading) to join the airway, at the same time we have the ISP inbounds (SWA), numerous other Long Island Inbounds, PHL arrivals (USAir, SWA) JFK and EWR arrivals from Oceanic, which is all climbing and descending head on. Not to mention overflights and Military flights (tankers, etc.) out of McGuire.

Now... the #1 rule is to keep the departures climbing... nothing is worse then having to stop someone's climb, the faster we can get you up, over the inbounds, and off to the next sector the better.

As for turning guys in... I can't speak about the speeds because we have nothing to do with the class B...

 

[atcloser]

MIKE1MC- not sure. i dont work at the EWR sector, and am not real familiar with that approach. maybe they are restating the restrictions because they involve avoiding other airspace, and they just want to reiterate it. i dont even know any of those fixes, so i am certainly not qualified to answer.


COUGAR- almost anytime would be good for VFR flight following as long as your remain below the Bravo. if you are coming from the east, you could call 125.7 (near FRG), they will most likely tell you to stay below to B, and hand you off to JFK Tower, who will probably hand you off to LGA Tower (or terminate you and have you go to the Hud River unicom). Going back east along the North shore, LGA tower would hand you back off to 125.7, who would hand you to 118.0 if going toward ISP. again, this is all below the floor. Getting CLASS B for that route is unlikely as JFK approach would need you high, and LGA approach would want you low. i've seen it happen, but it takes a lot of coordination...I would say if you are looking for a Class B clearance for that route, do it in the AM (before noon) or after 8pm, anyday but Fri or Sunday. later would prob be better in fact. JFK is slow before 12pm, but LGA is hopping all day until later in the evening. again,the best way is below to Bravo.

 

[metrodriver]

Here is something different: you fly on a published airway and you see a big thunderstorm dead ahead over the airway and your still 40 NM away from it. I would ask at that point for a deviation of say 10 degrees. I was flying with another pilot recently who stayed on the airway till 20 NM away and asked at that point for a 20 degree deviation. When I asked why he waited so long before deviation his answer was: I have been instructed to fly this airway so I'll stay on it till I absolutely cannot continue anymore. My opinion is that the sooner ATC knows that you have to deviate, and the smaller the deviation, the better it works for them to keep you clear from other traffic.
Who is right? (or what is the best way to do this?)