Question for ATC

[chperplt]

I see you are a CRJ FO... I assume you were going to ATL ???

We were going to ROA.

If separation is going to sh!t or you feel a potential situation may arise, are you (ATC) authorized to give me greater than 250 below 10, less than 12 off shore? Obviously the controller wanted us to go fast, but what if a higher-up was watching the screen or listening to the freq. Wouldn't it be possible for both the controller and the crew to get nailed?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

well, from what I understand, if ATC tells you to exceed the 250kt rule under 100, then your perfectly legal. You can always say unable

91.117 - unless otherwise autorized by the administrator no one my operate an ac under 10000 above 250kts.

definition of administrator Part 1: Defs and Abbrvs
Administrator means the Federal Aviation Adminstrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned. Air Traffic Controllers have been delegated the authority by the admin.

 

[Brett Hull]

Let me throw a little comon sense comment in here (well, we are talking about the FAA - what common sense ). Assuming you're below 10K, if all it takes is for a controller to say "Go as fast as you can", why did the FAA go through all of the trouble to issue the waiver to the Houston Tracon for their "No speed limit" program, and why isn't it being used elsewhere?

And how busy can I expect EWR to be this afternoon (Sunday), arriving around 1900 lcl and leaving about an hour later? Should I be expecting any major delays?

Thanks guys!

 

[atcloser]

brett has a good point there. although, i do agree with lrjcaptain, i understand that we do have the authority to let people break the 250 knot rule if needed. again, i wouldnt do it unless absolutely necessary, or for aircraft performance, but it is possible.


also brett, if you are speaking about flying into EWR today, sunday, i would expect major delays. the weather is awful outside, and sunday is N90's busiest day in my opinion, especially in the later evening hours.

 

[chperplt]

i understand that we do have the authority to let people break the 250 knot rule if needed.

I've heard that you do not. How do we find out for sure?

 

[cheater1239]

ATC is not delegated the authority to permit speed increases above 250 below ten.

search 91.117 on doc's far forum for the final answer

 

[cheater1239]

here's the cut and paste from doc's, also answers the under class B issue... go faster if the A/C needs it no call no clearance





The rules regarding aircraft speed are contained in FAR 91.117. I will break this rule down into its parts and then answer your questions:

FAR 91.117 (with commentary):

"(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 mph)."

Comments: The "Administrator" is not ATC, and ATC has no authority to either approve or request speeds in excess of 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet MSL.

If the minimum safe speed for the operation requires a higher speed, the aircraft may be flown at that speed (see paragraph (d) below). Note that there is no requirement to request this speed or to advise ATC that you require this speed.

There is a test program at IAH (Houston) to allow speed in excess of 250 KIAS in the Houston Class B, but only for departures. It is published as a Notam via a change that was made through the exemption process (e.g. as approved by the Administrator).

As noted in paragraph (b) below, the rules for Class B airspace areas are the same as in pargraph (a). So ATC cannot waive this speed limit in Class B, except if authorized by the Administrator (e.g. as in the case of IAH).



"(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section."

Comments: You cannot exceed 200 KIAS within 4 nm of the primary airport of a Class C or D airspace area if you are at or below 2500 feet above the surface. However, ATC can approve a higher speed.

Note that this does not apply in all of Class C (or D) airspace. It only applies within the stated distance and height limits.

Note that the Class B limit is as per paragraph (a), so ATC has no authority to waive the Class B limit.

As with the other limits, you can exceed this speed if the minimum safe speed is in excess of the limit. A courtesy call is a good idea, but you do not need to make one, nor do you need to request the higher speed from ATC.



"(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph)."

Comments: The only relief from this rule is when the minimum safe speed for the operation is higher than 200 KIAS. ATC cannot waive it. No need to request the speed or to advise ATC.


"(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed."

Comments: You can fly the minimum safe speed without requesting it, and without advising ATC. In the case of needing to exceed 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet MSL or in CLass B, just make an advisory call if desired. No need to request the higher speed -- ATC cannot grant your request... As noted above, a call to the controller would be a thing to consider, as the controller will then be able to plan for yor speed, thus assisting him to separate traffic.


Your questions:

"Q 1. ATC requests best foward speed while below class B. What would you do?"

A: Fly 200 KIAS or less, unless the minimum safe speed was higher.


"Q 2. On departure (below 10) ATC says " delete 250 restriction or climb unrestricted or high speed climb approved". What to do?"

Unless you are in the IAH Class B airspace area, the controller cannot delete the 250 KIAS limit. If the controller tells you that high speed is approved, you should fly 250 KIAS or less until reaching 10,000 feet in the climb, then maintain best forward speed. Or fly the minimum safe airspeed until reaching 10,000 feet, then best forward speed at or above 10,000 ft MSL

 

[atcloser]

thanks for the info. i see the only way we can approve above 250kts is 12NM offshore...for fixes such as WAVEY and SHIPP off JFK.

 

[SCT]

I don't know if ATC is legally allowed to authorize speeds greater then 250knts below 10,000. But I did have a request from SAV approach for best foward speed one morning when we were level at 7 or 8,000. We verified his request and pushed the throttles up (which wasn't much of a difference below 8000 on a X).

 

[chperplt]

Confusing stuff, huh??

 

[Singlecoil]

I don't know if ATC is legally allowed to authorize speeds greater then 250knts below 10,000. But I did have a request from SAV approach for best foward speed one morning when we were level at 7 or 8,000. We verified his request and pushed the throttles up (which wasn't much of a difference below 8000 on a X).

Better file a NASA report if it is not too late, that was a no-no.

 

[cougar6903]

ATCLOSER,

Thanks again for the post. Its appreciated along with all the other ATCer's hard work.

 

[ATCER]

Here is something different: you fly on a published airway and you see a big thunderstorm dead ahead over the airway and your still 40 NM away from it. I would ask at that point for a deviation of say 10 degrees. I was flying with another pilot recently who stayed on the airway till 20 NM away and asked at that point for a 20 degree deviation. When I asked why he waited so long before deviation his answer was: I have been instructed to fly this airway so I'll stay on it till I absolutely cannot continue anymore. My opinion is that the sooner ATC knows that you have to deviate, and the smaller the deviation, the better it works for them to keep you clear from other traffic.
Who is right? (or what is the best way to do this?)

There is no right or wrong way... there are too many variables. I have had pilots handle it both ways you describe. I will say that many times when A/C deviate we have some coordination to work out with surrounding sectors so the earlier we know the better.

Now... when flying in Oceanic airspace it is different... make a request as soon as you can due to the lag with ArInc. Also, Oceanic seperation is far greater then domestic so you may have to climb or descend before a deviation can be approved. Again... because of the communication delay all these things take some time and wating till your 10 miles from the cell would not be wise...

We were going to ROA.

If separation is going to sh!t or you feel a potential situation may arise, are you (ATC) authorized to give me greater than 250 below 10, less than 12 off shore? Obviously the controller wanted us to go fast, but what if a higher-up was watching the screen or listening to the freq. Wouldn't it be possible for both the controller and the crew to get nailed?

This is a tough one... I do not work traffic below 10K ***BUT*** I will say this... if it was a choice between losing speration or breaking the speed limit... I choose the speed limit. We lose seperation and the snitch rings the bell at the watch desk... Other then 12nm offshore I do not think we can clear you faster then 250 below 10K except during an emergency...

 

[ATCER]

And how busy can I expect EWR to be this afternoon (Sunday), arriving around 1900 lcl and leaving about an hour later? Should I be expecting any major delays?

Thanks guys!

... Sorry Brett ... I couldn't resist...

I worked the day shift today... it was not pretty... how did you make out ?

 

[Brett Hull]

Sitting here in Signature now (2230 lcl). We got ground stopped in Birmingham for just over an hour. Filed GVE.DYLAN2, but got rerouted and rerouted again. A few more twists and turns later, ended up coming over Slate Run and the Williamsport (i think that's what it was) arrival. Doesn't look like we're going to have a hard time getting out. All in all, it wasn't too bad.

Now if the boss can find his wife in the terminal (I think she is coming in from Europe on Continental), we can get the he!! out of here and go home!

Maybe she got smart and ditched his a$$.

p.s., If any of the BHM tower guys are around here, Muchas Gracias again for calling the hangar to update our EDCT time. Very cool.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

The admin has delagated authority to controllers to allow us to let this speed exceeded. If you dont agree, then dont do it when a controller tells you to and be prepared to be number 15.

 

[chperplt]

according to my hub manager

Sorry man, but that's just like saying "One time at bandcamp." If you've been delegated authority as the administrator, there has to be something in writing with a date/time/reference # to site.

 

[bandit110]

Let's add the Canadian twist in here. In Canada the rule says:


Airspeed Limitations

602.32 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet ASL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots.

(2) No person shall operate an aircraft below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled airport at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.

(3) Notwithstanding subsections (1) and (2), a person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsections (1) and (2) where the aircraft is being operated on departure or in accordance with a special flight operations certificate - special aviation event issued pursuant to section 603.02.

(4) Where the minimum safe speed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the speed referred to in subsection (1) or (2), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe speed.


So, I read it to say that you can bust 250 below 10 on departure in Canada, but I have always kept it slow till out of 10.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Well, Im gonna make this as simple as possible. We have been given authority. Im going to try and find where but we have been given the authority. Number 2...if a controller gives a control instruction that is against FAR's then your off the hook if you comply. Not always the smartest thing in the world to do, I.E. controllers have flown planes into mountains but realisticly exceeding 250 below 10K isnt the end of the world.

 

[Rythm3]

Got anopther question for you guys in N90. We were having a discussion about the VOR/DME-A into Teterboro. Typically the approach controller will clear you for the approach by stating:

"Maintain WANES at 3000, CLIFO at 2000, Cleared for the VOR/DME-A"

Some guys want to argue that this clearance relieves you from the 2500 ft restriction at JAYMO. This seems to be poor phrasing for an approach clearance. Why not just "Cleared for the VOR/DME-A"? All the restrictions are clearly defined on the approach plate.

The 2500' restriction keeps you out of the Caldwell (CDW) Class D airspace while on the approach, and I see guys busting the airspace all the time. Looking for any comments.

On this approach I think the controllers were thinking in this way:
- On every approach clearence, the controller will issue a "maintain xxx till established." This is shown by the controller saying maintain wanes at 3000.
- On this particular approach, the controller tells all aircraft "Clifo at 2000" because this is a mandatory altitude. There are not many of these mandatory restrictions on approaches, so ATC is making absolute sure that aircraft know about this.
- Just because they left out the intermediate fix in the clearence, does not mean you are free to do whatever. You still must not bust the 2500 ft restriction at Jaymo.

Hope this answered your question.