Question for ATC

[Singlecoil]

I don't know if ATC is legally allowed to authorize speeds greater then 250knts below 10,000. But I did have a request from SAV approach for best foward speed one morning when we were level at 7 or 8,000. We verified his request and pushed the throttles up (which wasn't much of a difference below 8000 on a X).

Better file a NASA report if it is not too late, that was a no-no.

 

[cougar6903]

ATCLOSER,

Thanks again for the post. Its appreciated along with all the other ATCer's hard work.

 

[ATCER]

Here is something different: you fly on a published airway and you see a big thunderstorm dead ahead over the airway and your still 40 NM away from it. I would ask at that point for a deviation of say 10 degrees. I was flying with another pilot recently who stayed on the airway till 20 NM away and asked at that point for a 20 degree deviation. When I asked why he waited so long before deviation his answer was: I have been instructed to fly this airway so I'll stay on it till I absolutely cannot continue anymore. My opinion is that the sooner ATC knows that you have to deviate, and the smaller the deviation, the better it works for them to keep you clear from other traffic.
Who is right? (or what is the best way to do this?)

There is no right or wrong way... there are too many variables. I have had pilots handle it both ways you describe. I will say that many times when A/C deviate we have some coordination to work out with surrounding sectors so the earlier we know the better.

Now... when flying in Oceanic airspace it is different... make a request as soon as you can due to the lag with ArInc. Also, Oceanic seperation is far greater then domestic so you may have to climb or descend before a deviation can be approved. Again... because of the communication delay all these things take some time and wating till your 10 miles from the cell would not be wise...

We were going to ROA.

If separation is going to sh!t or you feel a potential situation may arise, are you (ATC) authorized to give me greater than 250 below 10, less than 12 off shore? Obviously the controller wanted us to go fast, but what if a higher-up was watching the screen or listening to the freq. Wouldn't it be possible for both the controller and the crew to get nailed?

This is a tough one... I do not work traffic below 10K ***BUT*** I will say this... if it was a choice between losing speration or breaking the speed limit... I choose the speed limit. We lose seperation and the snitch rings the bell at the watch desk... Other then 12nm offshore I do not think we can clear you faster then 250 below 10K except during an emergency...

 

[ATCER]

And how busy can I expect EWR to be this afternoon (Sunday), arriving around 1900 lcl and leaving about an hour later? Should I be expecting any major delays?

Thanks guys!

... Sorry Brett ... I couldn't resist...

I worked the day shift today... it was not pretty... how did you make out ?

 

[Brett Hull]

Sitting here in Signature now (2230 lcl). We got ground stopped in Birmingham for just over an hour. Filed GVE.DYLAN2, but got rerouted and rerouted again. A few more twists and turns later, ended up coming over Slate Run and the Williamsport (i think that's what it was) arrival. Doesn't look like we're going to have a hard time getting out. All in all, it wasn't too bad.

Now if the boss can find his wife in the terminal (I think she is coming in from Europe on Continental), we can get the he!! out of here and go home!

Maybe she got smart and ditched his a$$.

p.s., If any of the BHM tower guys are around here, Muchas Gracias again for calling the hangar to update our EDCT time. Very cool.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

The admin has delagated authority to controllers to allow us to let this speed exceeded. If you dont agree, then dont do it when a controller tells you to and be prepared to be number 15.

 

[chperplt]

according to my hub manager

Sorry man, but that's just like saying "One time at bandcamp." If you've been delegated authority as the administrator, there has to be something in writing with a date/time/reference # to site.

 

[bandit110]

Let's add the Canadian twist in here. In Canada the rule says:


Airspeed Limitations

602.32 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet ASL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots.

(2) No person shall operate an aircraft below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled airport at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.

(3) Notwithstanding subsections (1) and (2), a person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsections (1) and (2) where the aircraft is being operated on departure or in accordance with a special flight operations certificate - special aviation event issued pursuant to section 603.02.

(4) Where the minimum safe speed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the speed referred to in subsection (1) or (2), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe speed.


So, I read it to say that you can bust 250 below 10 on departure in Canada, but I have always kept it slow till out of 10.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Well, Im gonna make this as simple as possible. We have been given authority. Im going to try and find where but we have been given the authority. Number 2...if a controller gives a control instruction that is against FAR's then your off the hook if you comply. Not always the smartest thing in the world to do, I.E. controllers have flown planes into mountains but realisticly exceeding 250 below 10K isnt the end of the world.

 

[Rythm3]

Got anopther question for you guys in N90. We were having a discussion about the VOR/DME-A into Teterboro. Typically the approach controller will clear you for the approach by stating:

"Maintain WANES at 3000, CLIFO at 2000, Cleared for the VOR/DME-A"

Some guys want to argue that this clearance relieves you from the 2500 ft restriction at JAYMO. This seems to be poor phrasing for an approach clearance. Why not just "Cleared for the VOR/DME-A"? All the restrictions are clearly defined on the approach plate.

The 2500' restriction keeps you out of the Caldwell (CDW) Class D airspace while on the approach, and I see guys busting the airspace all the time. Looking for any comments.

On this approach I think the controllers were thinking in this way:
- On every approach clearence, the controller will issue a "maintain xxx till established." This is shown by the controller saying maintain wanes at 3000.
- On this particular approach, the controller tells all aircraft "Clifo at 2000" because this is a mandatory altitude. There are not many of these mandatory restrictions on approaches, so ATC is making absolute sure that aircraft know about this.
- Just because they left out the intermediate fix in the clearence, does not mean you are free to do whatever. You still must not bust the 2500 ft restriction at Jaymo.

Hope this answered your question.

 

[mike1mc]

Just because they left out the intermediate fix in the clearence, does not mean you are free to do whatever. You still must not bust the 2500 ft restriction at Jaymo.

Hope this answered your question.

That is my thinking. I got into a friendly discussion with a few guys who felt that it was alright. It makes no sense to me, just curious as to why the clearance is phrased as such. Thanks.

 

[regionalcap]

Well, Im gonna make this as simple as possible. We have been given authority. Im going to try and find where but we have been given the authority. Number 2...if a controller gives a control instruction that is against FAR's then your off the hook if you comply. Not always the smartest thing in the world to do, I.E. controllers have flown planes into mountains but realisticly exceeding 250 below 10K isnt the end of the world.

Prove it! So it's a free ride with the FAA just because you say it's ok.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

in the FAR's it says The administrator or those who have been delegated authority. You think that is written in there just in case Blakey just happens to be in my tower someday and feels like she wants to issue a control instruction. I don't think so. We end up being the administrator in this case. The authority has been given to us to issue these instructions.

 

[cheater1239]

"Well, Im gonna make this as simple as possible"

a controller can not approve more than 250 below 10,000. period dot
the administrator can delagate it ref: the houston notam
the pilot can: any time for operational reasons
tell your hub manager he is wrong

 

[de727ups]

Lrjtcaptain

Do you work in a radar facility? Contract facility? It would be interesting if you asked 10 terminal radar guys if they can approve 250 below 10 and see what they say. It's common knowledge that ATC can't approve that. You say your "hub manager" backs you up? I spent a year at LAX TRACON and I never heard that term....that was a long time ago, however. I think you need to look further up your chain of command with this question. How about the FSDO?

Doc said the "Administrator" is not ATC, and ATC has no authority to either approve or request speeds in excess of 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet MSL." If you're not familiar with Doc's site, he asks the Fed attorneys when he's not sure. Doc is the man....