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Question for ATC
- Thread starter Stifler's Mom
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regionalcap
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Lrjtcaptain
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in the FAR's it says The administrator or those who have been delegated authority. You think that is written in there just in case Blakey just happens to be in my tower someday and feels like she wants to issue a control instruction. I don't think so. We end up being the administrator in this case. The authority has been given to us to issue these instructions.
cheater1239
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Lrjtcaptain
Do you work in a radar facility? Contract facility? It would be interesting if you asked 10 terminal radar guys if they can approve 250 below 10 and see what they say. It's common knowledge that ATC can't approve that. You say your "hub manager" backs you up? I spent a year at LAX TRACON and I never heard that term....that was a long time ago, however. I think you need to look further up your chain of command with this question. How about the FSDO?
Doc said the "Administrator" is not ATC, and ATC has no authority to either approve or request speeds in excess of 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet MSL." If you're not familiar with Doc's site, he asks the Fed attorneys when he's not sure. Doc is the man....
Do you work in a radar facility? Contract facility? It would be interesting if you asked 10 terminal radar guys if they can approve 250 below 10 and see what they say. It's common knowledge that ATC can't approve that. You say your "hub manager" backs you up? I spent a year at LAX TRACON and I never heard that term....that was a long time ago, however. I think you need to look further up your chain of command with this question. How about the FSDO?
Doc said the "Administrator" is not ATC, and ATC has no authority to either approve or request speeds in excess of 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet MSL." If you're not familiar with Doc's site, he asks the Fed attorneys when he's not sure. Doc is the man....
A Squared
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LRJTcaptain.
You are just plain old flat out unequivocally wrong. In just about everything you have said in this thread to this point.
You are *NOT* the administrator, nor have you been delegated the administrator's authority to grant speed deviations.
See reference below from the federal docket. the short version of that document is that when the airspace was reclassified in 1993, the regulations were written *inadvertantly* giving ATC personnel the authority to grant deviations to the 250 knot restriction. This mistake was noticed and it was corrected by the quoted rulemaking. Your hub manager is wrong. Read the docket below, it's pretty clear.
>>>>>"Number 2...if a controller gives a control instruction that is against FAR's then your off the hook if you comply."
Jesus, where do you come up with this stuff??
Take a look at the AIM. Specifically take a look at 4-4-1. (a)
it says: " IT (a clearence) IS NOT AUTHORIZATION FOR A PILOT TO DEVIATE FROM ANY RULE, REGULATION OR MINIMUM ALTITUDE NOR TO CONDUCT UNSAFE OPERATION OF THE AIRCRAFT. "
It should be noted that these words are capitalized in the AIM, just like I have shown them. That's a clue that the FAA thinks it is important and want's to EMPHASIZE them. Are you somhow confused about what those words mean?
As an ATC'r you have some pretty fundamental misunderstandings of what your role is and the limit of your authority regarding the regulations. You are not god, you are not the administrator, nor are you the administrator's delegate. You cannot grant deviations from the regulations.
Volume 58, No. 157; Tuesday, August 17, 1993; Page 43553
14 CFR Part 91
[Docket No. 24456; Amendment No. 91-233]
Airspace Reclassification
AGENCY:
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), DOT.
ACTION:
Final rule; correcting amendment.
SUMMARY:
This action corrects the Airspace Reclassification Final Rule effective September 16, 1993. The Airspace Reclassification Rule inadvertently assigned the authority to air traffic controllers to allow aircraft operators to deviate from the maximum airspeed restriction below 10,000 feet. The authority to approve deviation from the speed limits contained in the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) rests with the Administrator, and the FAA did not intend to amend the approving authority. This action reestablishes the Administrator as the proper authority to permit waivers of aircraft speed. This action also corrects the inadvertent inclusion of Class B airspace in the maximum airspeed restriction effected by the Airspace Reclassification Final Rule.
EFFECTIVE DATE: This correcting amendment is effective as of September 16, 1993.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Messieurs Aaron I. Boxer or Joseph C. White, Air Traffic Rules Branch (ATP-230), Airspace - Rules and Aeronautical Information Division, 800 Independence Avenue, SW., Washington, DC 20591, telephone (202) 267-8783.
SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:
Background
On October 18, 1989, the FAA published a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on Airspace Reclassification (54 FR 42916) which proposed, among other things,
that the nomenclature of various airspace areas be renamed to conform with agreements with the International Civil Aviation Organization. On December 17, 1991, the FAA published a final rule on Airspace Reclassification (56 FR 65638) which becomes effective on September 16, 1993. Section 91.117 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) (14 CFR 91.117) was amended as part of this process. Section 91.117(a) requires that any aircraft operated below 10,000 feet be flown no faster than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.) unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator of the FAA. Section 91.117(b) provides that, unless authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within an airport traffic area faster than 200 knots (230 m.p.h.), except for operations within a terminal control area. The preamble to the proposed airspace reclassification rule included a discussion of several recommendations received from the National Airspace Review (NAR) task group. NAR 1-2.1.3 recommended several changes to operating requirements in Terminal Control Areas (Class B airspace). Included in NAR 1-2.1.3 was a recommendation to delegate the authority to approve deviation from the 250 knot speed restriction in Class B airspace to air traffic control. The FAA had adopted other portions of NAR 1-2.2.3 through separate actions, but had not intended to incorporate the recommended delegation of authority or include Class B airspace in the 200 knot rule. However, the rule language amending Sec. 91.117(a) inadvertently included such redelegation, and that amending Sec. 91.117(b) inadvertently included the Class B airspace area. This action establishes the
Administrator as the sole approving authority for deviations from the aircraft speed restrictions contained in Sec. 91.117(a) and excludes the Class B airspace area from the speed restrictions contained in Sec. 91.117(b).
List of Subjects in 14 CFR Part 91
Air traffic control, Air transportation, Airmen, Airports, Aviation safety.
The Amendment
Accordingly, 14 CFR part 91 in effect as of September 16, 1993, is amended by making the following correcting amendments:
You are just plain old flat out unequivocally wrong. In just about everything you have said in this thread to this point.
You are *NOT* the administrator, nor have you been delegated the administrator's authority to grant speed deviations.
See reference below from the federal docket. the short version of that document is that when the airspace was reclassified in 1993, the regulations were written *inadvertantly* giving ATC personnel the authority to grant deviations to the 250 knot restriction. This mistake was noticed and it was corrected by the quoted rulemaking. Your hub manager is wrong. Read the docket below, it's pretty clear.
>>>>>"Number 2...if a controller gives a control instruction that is against FAR's then your off the hook if you comply."
Jesus, where do you come up with this stuff??
Take a look at the AIM. Specifically take a look at 4-4-1. (a)
it says: " IT (a clearence) IS NOT AUTHORIZATION FOR A PILOT TO DEVIATE FROM ANY RULE, REGULATION OR MINIMUM ALTITUDE NOR TO CONDUCT UNSAFE OPERATION OF THE AIRCRAFT. "
It should be noted that these words are capitalized in the AIM, just like I have shown them. That's a clue that the FAA thinks it is important and want's to EMPHASIZE them. Are you somhow confused about what those words mean?
As an ATC'r you have some pretty fundamental misunderstandings of what your role is and the limit of your authority regarding the regulations. You are not god, you are not the administrator, nor are you the administrator's delegate. You cannot grant deviations from the regulations.
Volume 58, No. 157; Tuesday, August 17, 1993; Page 43553
14 CFR Part 91
[Docket No. 24456; Amendment No. 91-233]
Airspace Reclassification
AGENCY:
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), DOT.
ACTION:
Final rule; correcting amendment.
SUMMARY:
This action corrects the Airspace Reclassification Final Rule effective September 16, 1993. The Airspace Reclassification Rule inadvertently assigned the authority to air traffic controllers to allow aircraft operators to deviate from the maximum airspeed restriction below 10,000 feet. The authority to approve deviation from the speed limits contained in the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) rests with the Administrator, and the FAA did not intend to amend the approving authority. This action reestablishes the Administrator as the proper authority to permit waivers of aircraft speed. This action also corrects the inadvertent inclusion of Class B airspace in the maximum airspeed restriction effected by the Airspace Reclassification Final Rule.
EFFECTIVE DATE: This correcting amendment is effective as of September 16, 1993.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Messieurs Aaron I. Boxer or Joseph C. White, Air Traffic Rules Branch (ATP-230), Airspace - Rules and Aeronautical Information Division, 800 Independence Avenue, SW., Washington, DC 20591, telephone (202) 267-8783.
SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:
Background
On October 18, 1989, the FAA published a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on Airspace Reclassification (54 FR 42916) which proposed, among other things,
that the nomenclature of various airspace areas be renamed to conform with agreements with the International Civil Aviation Organization. On December 17, 1991, the FAA published a final rule on Airspace Reclassification (56 FR 65638) which becomes effective on September 16, 1993. Section 91.117 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) (14 CFR 91.117) was amended as part of this process. Section 91.117(a) requires that any aircraft operated below 10,000 feet be flown no faster than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.) unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator of the FAA. Section 91.117(b) provides that, unless authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within an airport traffic area faster than 200 knots (230 m.p.h.), except for operations within a terminal control area. The preamble to the proposed airspace reclassification rule included a discussion of several recommendations received from the National Airspace Review (NAR) task group. NAR 1-2.1.3 recommended several changes to operating requirements in Terminal Control Areas (Class B airspace). Included in NAR 1-2.1.3 was a recommendation to delegate the authority to approve deviation from the 250 knot speed restriction in Class B airspace to air traffic control. The FAA had adopted other portions of NAR 1-2.2.3 through separate actions, but had not intended to incorporate the recommended delegation of authority or include Class B airspace in the 200 knot rule. However, the rule language amending Sec. 91.117(a) inadvertently included such redelegation, and that amending Sec. 91.117(b) inadvertently included the Class B airspace area. This action establishes the
Administrator as the sole approving authority for deviations from the aircraft speed restrictions contained in Sec. 91.117(a) and excludes the Class B airspace area from the speed restrictions contained in Sec. 91.117(b).
List of Subjects in 14 CFR Part 91
Air traffic control, Air transportation, Airmen, Airports, Aviation safety.
The Amendment
Accordingly, 14 CFR part 91 in effect as of September 16, 1993, is amended by making the following correcting amendments:
Last edited:
Flibmeister
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2004
- Posts
- 47
>> It would be interesting if you asked 10 terminal radar guys if they can approve 250 below 10 and see what they say. <<
You can count me as one vote against.
Unless there's been a change since I pulled the plug (at ORD, in '99), controllers don't have such authority. If you look at 91.117, paragraph (a) says, "unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator". However, paragraph (b) says, "unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC".
If the controller had the authority to waive (a), they'd have worded it the same way they did in (b). They didn't, so they don't. (except, of course, for the administrator sanctioned test program in Houston).
-----------------------------------------
91.117 Aircraft speed.
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 mph).
(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.
You can count me as one vote against.
Unless there's been a change since I pulled the plug (at ORD, in '99), controllers don't have such authority. If you look at 91.117, paragraph (a) says, "unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator". However, paragraph (b) says, "unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC".
If the controller had the authority to waive (a), they'd have worded it the same way they did in (b). They didn't, so they don't. (except, of course, for the administrator sanctioned test program in Houston).
-----------------------------------------
91.117 Aircraft speed.
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 mph).
(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.
i am a TRACON controller and am glad as &*@# to have seen this thread. i admit i didnt know (or 'assumed' we could do it) the correct rules concerning 250 below 10, and dug into FAA Order 7110.65, the ATC handbook, similar to the FARs for pilots. before i add my 2 cents on what is said in it, i will reiterate that i would not hesitate to use a speed above 250 below 10 for safety or for expeditious flow of traffic (if absoultely required). again, at JFK we use the 12NM offshore rule all the time and it works well. here's what i found on the ATC side:
7110.65 Chapter 2, Section 1, Par 1
Provide air traffic control service in accordance with the procedures and minima in this order except when:
7110.65 Chapter 2, Section 1, Par 1
Provide air traffic control service in accordance with the procedures and minima in this order except when:
a. A deviation is necessary to conform with ICAO Documents, National Rules of the Air, or special agreements where the U.S. provides air traffic control service in airspace outside the U.S. and its possessions or:
b. Other procedures/minima are prescribed in a letter of agreement, FAA directive, or a military document, or:
c. A deviation is necessary to assist an aircraft when an emergency has been declared.
7110.65, Chapter 5 (Radar), Section 7:
5-7-1. APPLICATION
Keep speed adjustments to the minimum necessary to achieve or maintain required or desired spacing. Avoid adjustments requiring alternate decreases and increases. Permit pilots to resume normal speed when previously specified adjustments are no longer needed. NOTE-
It is the pilot's responsibility and prerogative to refuse speed adjustment that he/she considers excessive or contrary to the aircraft's operating specifications.
It is the pilot's responsibility and prerogative to refuse speed adjustment that he/she considers excessive or contrary to the aircraft's operating specifications.
5-7-2 METHODS:
NOTE-
1. A pilot operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL on an assigned speed adjustment greater than 250 knots is expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a) when cleared below 10,000 feet MSL, within domestic airspace, without notifying ATC. Pilots are expected to comply with the other provisions of 14 CFR
Section 91.117 without notification.
2. Speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to aircraft operating beyond 12 NM from the coastline within the U.S. Flight Information Region, in offshore Class E airspace below 10,000 feet MSL. However, in airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport, or in a VFR corridor designated through such as a Class B airspace area, pilots are expected to comply with the 200 knot speed limit specified in 14 CFR Section 91.117(c). (See 14 CFR Sections 91.117(c) and 91.703.)
3. The phrases "maintain maximum forward speed" and "maintain slowest practical speed" are primarily intended for use when sequencing a group of aircraft. As the sequencing plan develops, it may be necessary to determine the specific speed and/or make specific speed assignments.
1. A pilot operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL on an assigned speed adjustment greater than 250 knots is expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a) when cleared below 10,000 feet MSL, within domestic airspace, without notifying ATC. Pilots are expected to comply with the other provisions of 14 CFR
Section 91.117 without notification.
2. Speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to aircraft operating beyond 12 NM from the coastline within the U.S. Flight Information Region, in offshore Class E airspace below 10,000 feet MSL. However, in airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport, or in a VFR corridor designated through such as a Class B airspace area, pilots are expected to comply with the 200 knot speed limit specified in 14 CFR Section 91.117(c). (See 14 CFR Sections 91.117(c) and 91.703.)
3. The phrases "maintain maximum forward speed" and "maintain slowest practical speed" are primarily intended for use when sequencing a group of aircraft. As the sequencing plan develops, it may be necessary to determine the specific speed and/or make specific speed assignments.
5-7-4. TERMINATION
Advise aircraft when speed adjustment is no longer needed.
PHRASEOLOGY-
RESUME NORMAL SPEED.
RESUME NORMAL SPEED.
NOTE-
An instruction to "resume normal speed" does not delete speed restrictions that are applicable to published procedures of upcoming segments of flight, unless specifically stated by ATC. This does not relieve the pilot of those speed restrictions which are applicable to
14 CFR Section 91.117.
An instruction to "resume normal speed" does not delete speed restrictions that are applicable to published procedures of upcoming segments of flight, unless specifically stated by ATC. This does not relieve the pilot of those speed restrictions which are applicable to
14 CFR Section 91.117.
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