QOL @ NetJets

[hyflyin]

Question for the Netjetters. Hearing 3.5 to 5 yrs until upgrades. Are these figures based on the current orders, a formula, union figure, something other than the "guesses".

Seems to depend who you talk to.

Anyone???

 

[CRJFlyer]

I had 1 after midnight return and worked x-mas (airlined home actually) and it yielded me an extra $1500 for the month......I think I've spent maybe $50 in december that wasn't re-imbursable(sp?) Most of it on beer and terminal food while making the flight home on last day..... Some days I am full by lunch and don't even eat the dinner meal or I'll bring it to the room to snack on later....

Coming to NJ was by far the best move I've ever made and hopefully the last...and thats not to mention the new payscales.

 

[Abbey]

Fact, Jack

Question for the Netjetters. Hearing 3.5 to 5 yrs until upgrades. Are these figures based on the current orders, a formula, union figure, something other than the "guesses".

Seems to depend who you talk to.

Anyone???

Hired in the fall of 2005 and am no where near upgrade status. Captain awards for the more junior airplanes are and have been for many many months in the 1800's. Might have been a couple sneak in the low 1900's.

However, as said above, even on year 3 pay, I am earning base pay equal to a 10 year UA A320 FO.

 

[fischman]

It's not just pilots who are leaving. I just spent 2 hours talking with an Owner that was all too happy to join our Marqui Jet program after dealing with 45 minute drives to LAX to fly on SWA to SFO. One too many delays, excuses and TSA experiences.

Yes, occasionally we experience delays here too. The difference is that I am totally accessable and I will offer ANY information that I have to the Owner to make the experience more understandable. Face-to-face communication, 18 inches away complete with eye contact is comparison to an over worked, under paid agent behind a large podium/counter staring at a computer screen.

WHAT!!?!?!?!?!! You actually talked to the passengers??? For 2 hours??? Wern't they upset about the fact that you were not in the cockpit doing your job?!? After all, you're a PILOT aren't you? Customer service is someone else's job. The sooner you figure that one out, the easier your life will become man.


Disclaimer: This entire post was sarcasm. As a matter of fact, I was standing right next to him. God he's good. No Fischmans were harmed in the making of this post. Always cunsult your physician before starting an aspirin regimn

 

[B19 Flyer]

Yeah, it's kinda weird. They're jumping ship at JetBlue like rats off a sinking vessel. I just finished my last tour with IOE for a guy who came over from JB. What's the deal? Is JB pulling a Titanic?
I've only ridden on them once, but it was a good experience and I thought, comparativily in the airline world, it was a pretty good product.

You know, looking back at 11 years with NJA, it's amazing how far we've come and how attitudes towards us have actually remained constant throughout.
At first, everyone hated us. They hated us because we were expanding, and supposedly corporate flight departments were shutting down because the boss felt it was financially better to be with us than keep a corporate aircraft. And they hated us because we were paid so little, that we were dragging the bar down and lowering compensation packages across the entire industry. In essence, the whores of the private jet world. They hated our union and held it up as an example of why unions are so bad, because we're weak! And they hated us because we were just a rock in the stream, a stepping stone to build time to go fly for UAL, DAL, and yes, JetBlue.

And now? They still hate us. The hate us because our greedy union will ultimately bankrupt the company. Before, we were making too little money. Now, we're making too much. They hate the fact that our union is now strong. That somehow having a union now MEANS something. They hate us for our success. Hey! It's aviation. We're supposed make and lose money along with the cycles of the rest of the industry! What's with this positive growth and success under all circumstances? They hate us now because people are actually LEAVING the majors to come fly for us.

Who is "they"? You'll know them when you hear them. They're the ones on this message board and others who never have a positive thing to say about NJA or our union, whether we were making poor livings, or making a good one. Whether the company makes money or loses. Whether we close flight departments, or ultimately open them as some owners learn that private jets are nice and leave us to buy and fly their own jet.

So I say, come on over! Send us your poor, your haggard, your downtrodden! Let the haters fly for JetBlue! We have more than enough snacks and Fiji water for the wretched masses of thirsty pilots who haven't felt the love! Soon, we will all rise up as one, and B19 and the rest of the haters will find themselves on 'ignore' lists around the world!

Oh, sorry. Sugar rush from all the holiday cookies.:0

Union Hater? Me? Not hardly. I'm glad you have your union. In 1999, all was wonderful, 121 carriers like American, United and Delta all had contracts that make the current NJ contract look like pocket change. 2 years later the economy tanked and the unions didn't react. The entire industry was sucked down with it.

Right now, the NJ contract is the best thing since sliced bread. It will create a simular situation like the now famous "United plus $1" scenario. All the other unions in the fractional world now have a new standard. If the economy stumbles like it did in '01, it won't take just NJ, it'll cause a "correction" like in 121. Then, everybody will be scrambling back into 121 again. One thing about unions, they will force change, right down to strangling the golden goose of the fractional industry.

 

[CA1900]

Union Hater? Me? Not hardly. I'm glad you have your union. In 1999, all was wonderful, 121 carriers like American, United and Delta all had contracts that make the current NJ contract look like pocket change. 2 years later the economy tanked and the unions didn't react. The entire industry was sucked down with it.

Delta would still have been losing money hand over first if the pilots had been working for free. Non-sequitur at best.

All the other unions in the fractional world...

If you could go ahead and provide us that list, that'd be helpful.

 

[realityman]

Union Hater? Me? Not hardly. I'm glad you have your union. In 1999, all was wonderful, 121 carriers like American, United and Delta all had contracts that make the current NJ contract look like pocket change. 2 years later the economy tanked and the unions didn't react. The entire industry was sucked down with it.

Right now, the NJ contract is the best thing since sliced bread. It will create a simular situation like the now famous "United plus $1" scenario. All the other unions in the fractional world now have a new standard. If the economy stumbles like it did in '01, it won't take just NJ, it'll cause a "correction" like in 121. Then, everybody will be scrambling back into 121 again. One thing about unions, they will force change, right down to strangling the golden goose of the fractional industry.

B19, your post is so full of inaccuracies and hypocrisy it's hard to know where to begin. You claim you're not a union hater. But then go on to say that when the economy tanked it was the unions who brought the majors down. Naw. No hating there! You say you don't hate unions, but then go on to say that unions will ultimately strangle the golden goose. Nope. No hating.

Sorry, but NJA and the airlines are two different animals. The economy DID take a major dump right after 9/11. The airlines were really hit hard. In fact, most folks were. But guess what. NJA had continued good growth. We saw a momentary spike in business as a few wealthy individuals didn't walk, but ran, from the airlines to us, but mostly we just had nice, linear growth. So what's my point? Doesn't seem like ups and downs in the economy have any real effect on our business. A little, yes. But the kind of folks we're flying don't go bust because of a down economy. A few do. But for the most part, we have a completely different and far more stable client base who aren't as affected by swings in the economy or changes in fuel prices as the general population is that the airlines have to deal with.

You're comparing our newest contract with United's best contract? Wow!! You must think really highly of what we got. We got a good contract, but not THAT good! Our F/O's will now make a livable wage. On the 7/7 I believe first year wages start at $56K. On the 18-day sched, I think it's somewhere near $69K. After 5 years neither schedule breaks $100K (not including O/T, holidays, etc...). After 14 years here as a captain, none of our schedules breaks $166K in base pay. I'm not privy to the pay scales of United's contract when they had the best, but what was 5th year F/O pay and what did a 14 year captain make? Maybe I heard incorrectly, but I thought I heard that they had many captains there making well over $250K. Considering our AVERAGE captain here will probably make around $115K in base pay, I'm wondering how good your comparison is.

Oh, I almost forgot, you're missing something else in your comparison. The more senior you became at United, the less days you had to work. So as their base pay would climb into the stratosphere, they'd work fewer days. Less productivity for a bunch more money wasn't a good equation for United. Some of those folks were able to work the schedule to only fly 7 or 8 days a month while making those wages. Here at NJA, no matter how senior you get or how large your paycheck is, you'll still be working the same number of days as you did when you started, minus an extra week or two of vacation you gain as you become senior. So NJA still gets good productivity out of us.

Finally, would you care to list "all the other unions in the fractional world"? I'll get you started: FLOPS. Okay B19, feel free to add on at your leisure.

I really and truly hope that FLOPS gets a contract that beats ours (give us something to aim for next time), but realistically, does anyone think their first contract will even match ours? Doesn't really play very well into your theory about unions one-upping each other until we have contracts killing the industry, now does it B19?

I also wonder why you don't factor bad management into the formula for whats happened to the airlines in the past 5 or 6 years. But I guess that's discussion for a different thread.

Yes, it's possible for NJA to fall on hard times in the future. But your making that insinuation in your post is just plain stupid. It's possible for ANY company to fall on hard times in the future. Nobody can accurately predict what will happen with oil prices, the global markets, wars, future government regs, and any other number of important factors that go into making a business successful or bringing it down. Could NJA go down the tubes? Sure. How about Microsoft? It's possible that even the biggest oil companies could one day find themselves circling the drain.

But I'm sure that according to you, it'll all be labor's fault. If only those darn stubborn union workers would work for free so their companies can survive (and we'd also hate to see those management bonuses be reduced).

 

[realityman]

Correction: I stated that none of our pay scales tops $166K. Not entirely true when you factor in the BBJ pay.

However, considering that the BBJ's have, what, maybe 15 captains or so out of a pilot force of 3000, I didn't count that payscale because 99.5% of us will never be on it.

 

[NJA bound]

Correction: I stated that none of our pay scales tops $166K. Not entirely true when you factor in the BBJ pay.

However, considering that the BBJ's have, what, maybe 15 captains or so out of a pilot force of 3000, I didn't count that payscale because 99.5% of us will never be on it.

A quick review of section 27

>40K lbs (all of the Falcons to come when Dasso gets the range numbers up)
18 day capt pay
yr 1 $106,444
$110,169
$114,025
$118,016
$122,147
$126,422
$130,847
$135,426
$140,166
$145,072
$150,149
$155,405
$160,844
$166,473
$173,132
$180,058
yr 17 $187,260
4% longevity bonus for each year after 17
Reference 27.1(D)

 

[Willy21]

I forgot that the Delta pilots decided to sell the fuel hedges to enusre the top executives would have there pension. (that alone probably put Delta into Ch9) I thank you B19 for reminding me of that decision.

Pull your head out. A union, if run correctly which I believe the 1108 is, can do things management can't do. On the flip side managment can do things a union can't do. It is called give and take and NetJets is working on something that nobody has seen in a long time. Will it work, time will tell.

I just think you need to wait and see the outcome before you pass judgement. Good day B19.

 

[NJA bound]

..........................

 

[realityman]

Thanks for the correction NJABound. But the vast majority of our pilots will remain on the 7/7 schedule.
I did forget that they added years 15 and 16. And I should also add that the 4% bonus after year 16 is not cumulative over the years. And not everyone would be able to be on the 18-day schedule even if they wanted to.

So I stand by my assertion that our payscales are nowhere near what United's best contract was. Not even close.

And don't forget that the average pilot has been here between 6 and 7 years now. What's the base pay for a 7-year captain on the 7/7 schedule. I think my numbers in my previous post were fairly accurate.

 

[AeroDMB]

Do you have the ability to personal drop a 7 day tour at all? Or portions of the tour?

 

[HotelMonkey]

Do you have the ability to personal drop a 7 day tour at all? Or portions of the tour?

Yes and no. We can't just drop portions of our schedules/tours on a regular basis like others can at a 121 carrier. However, we can 'request' blocks of days off at the start or end of our tour (or the entire tour) using PTOs (paid time off). It's sick time that is converted to paid time off. Due to the nature of our mission, it makes it harder for us to just 'drop' trips/days. Hope this helps.

 

[skiandsurf]

Due to the nature of our mission, it makes it harder for us to just 'drop' trips/days. Hope this helps.

And this is about the only bad thing with NJs.....but then again, I will steal a line from someone else, "the perfect schedule, is just a sick call away".

 

[VVJM265]

WHAT!!?!?!?!?!! You actually talked to the passengers??? For 2 hours??? Wern't they upset about the fact that you were not in the cockpit doing your job?!? After all, you're a PILOT aren't you? Customer service is someone else's job. The sooner you figure that one out, the easier your life will become man.


Disclaimer: This entire post was sarcasm. As a matter of fact, I was standing right next to him. God he's good. No Fischmans were harmed in the making of this post. Always cunsult your physician before starting an aspirin regimn

You guys crack me up!

 

[fischman]

All part of the service that I am only too happy to provide.

 

[BeeFCaKe]

You get 2 weeks of vacation the 1st year and 4 after 5, is there an increase to 3 weeks somewhere in there?

Also, are you able to log PIC time under 91k??? (as an FO for the 1st 5 years.)

-CaKe

 

[VVJM265]

Here is the NJA vacation schedule...​

Service Years Completed: Entitled Vacation
One (1) – four (4) years: Two (2) calendar weeks
Five (5) – nine (9) years: Three (3) calendar weeks
Ten (10) years & thereafter: Four (4) calendar weeks​

PIC time is logged with the company iaw Part 1. I guess you could log PIC iaw Part 61.51 (sole manipulator) in your own logbook if you are looking to go somewhere else, but honestly, I think most companies are more concerned with Part 1 PIC time, i.e. who signs for the airplane.

Best of luck,
265

 

[B19 Flyer]

I forgot that the Delta pilots decided to sell the fuel hedges to enusre the top executives would have there pension. (that alone probably put Delta into Ch9) I thank you B19 for reminding me of that decision.

Pull your head out. A union, if run correctly which I believe the 1108 is, can do things management can't do. On the flip side managment can do things a union can't do. It is called give and take and NetJets is working on something that nobody has seen in a long time. Will it work, time will tell.

I just think you need to wait and see the outcome before you pass judgement. Good day B19.

Outside of SWA, Delta had a very successful fuel hedging program that in conjunction with being the least unionized carrier allowed them to stay out of bankruptcy for much longer than any other carrier.

1108 has a long way to go to prove that it's a different animal than any other pilot union. If it looks like a union, walks like a union sounds like a union, it's a union. Historically, unions have only served the pilots and not in the best interest of the carrier.

To think that 1108 is attempting to be the "ALPA" of fractionals isn't good for the industry. When the ecomomy stutters (and it will) all of the fracs will be sucked down with it just like all the 121 carriers were if the ambitions of putting all the eggs into the 1108 basket are successful.

 

[realityman]

B19, your tap dancing is getting a little sloppy. I notice your answer above sort of skirts around the issue Willy21 brought up, and just goes back to union bashing (nope, you're definitely not a union hater).

So how about it. What say you about Delta's decision to sell the fuel hedges?

Heck, how about a response to the fact that the economy took a major stutter-step right after 9/11 and NJA continued with very nice growth. Or the fact that many folks said our '05 contract would bankrupt the company, and yet even today, we're still in a very profitable area.

Look, if you don't like unions, fine. Many people don't. I didn't at first. In fact, even after being at NJA for many years I had a low opinion of unions. It took 1108 to change my attitude. My personal experience has made me see the value of having OUR SPECIFIC UNION in what we do. From your past posts, your personal experiences have made you see all the bad in unions. At this point, your anti-union attitude vs. the pro-union attitudes is just repetitive and useless.

The only problem I see is that your attitude towards 1108 doesn't reflect the reality of 1108. They have done nothing but good things for the pilot group, AND THE COMPANY. All the committees and programs our union now has that work cooperatively with the company are doing great things towards improving conditions for both the pilots and the company. Things that go far beyond just contract negotiations. Our ASAP and safety programs, just to name a couple.

I also don't understand this constant thing about "The day will come when NJA is swept down the toilet.". So? The same could be said for ANY company, in aviation or otherwise. We could see SWA, FedEx, UPS, or any of the traditionally good companies go down the drain one day. You're kinda like the guy that is always forecasting a bear market during a prolonged bull market. When, inevitably, the bear market arrives that guy can go "See!? See, I told you things were gonna get bad!". But the thing is, everyone knew it would happen eventually. Nothing lasts forever.

You also seem to take great pleasure in pointing out all the ways unions have ruined good companies and driven them under. How about this: Why don't we start a list of good companies that went under that were non-unionized. Do you think there might be a few? Who's to blame in all those instances? Hmmmm.......try not to think too long on it.

On the whole, I'd say a greedy union may aid in, or accelerate, the demise of a company, but ultimately they all go down because of poor management or a bad business model.

 

[RP170]

CA1900 has nailed it on the head. I came from cargo but his explaination of the job is spot on. I'm in Key West right now with a broken airplane. Looks like we are going to be here 2 full days hanging out in town waiting for the plane to get fixed.

I've been in Key West the last 2 days in a Crowne Plaza right on Duval Street. "Hotel Duty" with a good airplane. This place is pretty amazing as far as I'm concerned. Food, hotels, no commuting. The list goes on and on.

Tomorrow is the last day of my tour and I'll be home by 12:30 PM. I started on Christmas day but didn't have to be to the airport till 3 PM. Got to be with the family most of the day and collect my $480 (1st year holiday pay rate) of holiday pay.

I'll NEVER go back to the airlines.

 

[fischman]

Outside of SWA, Delta had a very successful fuel hedging program that in conjunction with being the least unionized carrier allowed them to stay out of bankruptcy for much longer than any other carrier.

1108 has a long way to go to prove that it's a different animal than any other pilot union. If it looks like a union, walks like a union sounds like a union, it's a union. Historically, unions have only served the pilots and not in the best interest of the carrier.

To think that 1108 is attempting to be the "ALPA" of fractionals isn't good for the industry. When the ecomomy stutters (and it will) all of the fracs will be sucked down with it just like all the 121 carriers were if the ambitions of putting all the eggs into the 1108 basket are successful.

I are looking more and more foolish with every post.

Seriously. Educate yourself before making asinine comments like this one. Everyone is now more stupid after having read that. The inaccuracies in truth and the terrible spelling can make anyone puke.

BTW, were you in KRAL last week?

 

[Standby]

Hey guys, just had a couple quick questions. I was curious exactly how the 15 day flex works? Are you essentially on call all month or do you have any idea what days you might be working in advance? Do you bid for on and off days? Lastly, how long would it take to get the 15 day flex as a newhire? Thanks a lot in advance for taking the time to answer my questions.

 

[NJA bound]

see guitar guys post, its better

 

[Guitar Guy]

Hey guys, just had a couple quick questions. I was curious exactly how the 15 day flex works? Are you essentially on call all month or do you have any idea what days you might be working in advance? Do you bid for on and off days? Lastly, how long would it take to get the 15 day flex as a newhire? Thanks a lot in advance for taking the time to answer my questions.

It's been discussed before, but I'll try to give you a quick overview. On the Flex, the company can schedule you for up to 15 days in a month. The maximum tour length is 5 days. The minimum days off following a tour (regardless of length) is 3 days. There is no bidding for days on or off. There is no "on call" - if you aren't going into a required day off, the company will brief by 6 PM local of that day if the following day is a work day. As for holding the Flex, no one knows how senior or junior that schedule will go. The contract allows the company to put 10% of a fleet/seat combo on the Flex. You could bid to the Flex after your initial training is done.

I hope that helps.

 

[Standby]

Thanks for the quick replies

 

[Willy21]

B19,

Thanks for reminding me about Southwest and their non-unionized employeey force. That is right, Southwest is one of the most unionized employee groups in the industry. So explain that one for me. Maybe Southwest has the culture to allow unions and the company to work together. Maybe NetJets has a similar culture.

Having been a member of ALPA and the 1108 I can assure you that there is a difference. Will it stand the test of time, well only time will tell. I can tell you this, there are many former ALPA members in the 1108 that see where we took the wrong fork in the road. They are working their hardest to not make the same mistakes twice. As of today we, the members of the 1108, have a good working relationship with out management team. Will it last I hope so. I can tell you it will last as long as both sides are willing to work together. I can tell you that Delta and United management didn't want to play, ie. went back on there word many times, and got ALPA playing against them in a battle that nobody can win.

I think what you need to do is say that you don't like unions and move on. You are doing nothing constructive here. The 1108 has a lot going for itself right now and somebody on a message board behind an assumed name will never change that.

Have a happy New Year.

 

[Willy21]

One other thing, where has the 1108 ever said that it wanted to be the ALPA of the fractional indsutry?

 

[KODI3]

Thanks to all the info so far. Couple of more questions for folks in the know:

What are the avg leg lengths per day?
Not familiar w/corporate jets, but do any of these, besides the BBJ, have galley/head facilities?
Haven't seen anything mentioned about NJ International. Anyone care to provide some insight? Are they on the same pay scales?
Could someone add the link to the 100 bases one more time?

THANKS