PVD closed: Aircraft slid off runway

[SkiDawg]

All interesting points mentioned here. In the last few I am hearing a "I am so cool because I am The CAPT" attitude.
Like someone mentioned earlier, this could happen to ANY of us, regardless of seat. I am in the CRJ too, an FO, and I have flown with CAs with thousands of hours in the airplane and can't land on the centerline or on a short runway, or in a crosswind or fly a nice visual. I flew with a CA who set off the GPWS on a visual and it was "clear and a million!" Its about ability, or lack thereof. And just because you are a CA doesn't make you God's gift!
I do agree that CAs need to be heads up and exercise authority when necessary, hell, that's the job description! But leg hoggin won't help. How else does one gain experience, except by doing it! And if these newbies with 300 hrs got through the training program, than that should say something! They do need line experience and time in the airplane, but more than likely they have some ability. Face it guys, its a different cycle, and guys/gals are getting hired without the 2500+/1000 PIC turbine you got hired with. DEAL WITH IT!

 

[rtmcfi]

And if these newbies with 300 hrs got through the training program, than that should say something! Face it guys, its a different cycle, and guys/gals are getting hired without the 2500+/1000 PIC turbine you got hired with. DEAL WITH IT!

Yes, they got through training. Because airlines are desperate for fresh suckers. Standards are relaxed. Pilots are trained to pass a test, nothing more. Captains now get to deal with babysitting as well as flying.

 

[BoilerUP]

Standards are relaxed.

If your company is relaxing their standards at the same time as lowering their minimums, YOU need to be making noise to your training department.

Lower minimums are one thing; lower standards are completely another.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

You can make all the noise you want. What the company will turn around and say is-

"So, Captain Obvious, we've heard you don't feel safe flying with some of our FO's. We've decided to give you a couple line checks and simulator checks to see if you're the problem. After all, our quality FO's meet minimum FAA and company standards, so it must be you who is the problem. Thanks for bringing it to our attention."

 

[BoilerUP]

You can make all the noise you want. What the company will turn around and say is-

"So, Captain Obvious, we've heard you don't feel safe flying with some of our FO's. We've decided to give you a couple line checks and simulator checks to see if you're the problem. After all, our quality FO's meet minimum FAA and company standards, so it must be you who is the problem. Thanks for bringing it to our attention."

Ehhhhhhhhhh I don't really think so...especially if those "minimum company standards" have recently become flexible to get warm bodies through training.

Maybe at some places you'll get attitude from management, but I bet most Training/Standards folks (even those in management) know the score...

 

[Crossky]

I do agree that CAs need to be heads up and exercise authority when necessary, hell, that's the job description! But leg hoggin won't help. How else does one gain experience, except by doing it! And if these newbies with 300 hrs got through the training program, than that should say something! They do need line experience and time in the airplane, but more than likely they have some ability. Face it guys, its a different cycle, and guys/gals are getting hired without the 2500+/1000 PIC turbine you got hired with. DEAL WITH IT!

I AM cool because I'm the CAPT! Although it's +1F in Iowa here, that might have something to do with it too. ;o

(Co. pilots will be peeved with me but I'm calling a spade a spade. At least I'm going to leave out the details.) It seems the accident crew had problems with a stabilized approach and adhering to SOP's. This is from reading between the lines from our recent internal memos. Unfortunately, due to what the company is putting on us now, the CAPT might have to 'hog legs' in the future.

I was looking at some accident reports, in the 90's after Airtran had a couple accidents they limited their FO's to 300 OVC and 3/4 mi vis approach minimums. I wouldn't be surprised if similar restrictions were put on us.

Pilots at the 300-700 hour level can pass the training, but they don't have the experience needed to make them a lower risk than high timers, period. The failure rate for newbies with less than 1000 hours is higher also. That's the facts, SkiDawg.

We ARE dealing with it. Sit on your hands now. Stop reading that Maxim magazine in front of the passengers.

 

[WSurf]

We still have a high wash out rate at PDT with these lower time folks. Problem with these guys is it just takes more time to get it.

Nice day, VFR with low work load they are fine. The problem is when the work load increases there capacity to handle things decreases. And then you become a single pilot. Its just the process of learning.

For me its all about attitude also. I flew with a guy that told me, "Listen, I got 350 hours and I suck" if you can give me any pointers on this trip then thanks". It was a pleasure to fly and show him stuff.

Then you got the 300hr. Chuck Yeager that knows everything about aviation. These are the guys that will screw up your ticket. Watch them and look out for key works like. 1. Yea, Okay... I got it (which means I am high as hell and look out) 2. yea, yea I know (which means I was about to screw up before you caught me) 3. Well, Actually (when they are trying to give you some screwed up 300hr. knowlege about aviation)
Sometimes these butt holes are so into themselves that you have to let things go so they screw up. If you tell them too early, you get the "I know, I know"
Eventually these guys step on there own dicks.

Attitude goes a long way!!!

 

[TOOL CRIB]

If someone passed the training and checkride that means they did only the required maneuvers correctly that one time (and once or twice in the training that leads up to it). That doesn't mean they will do ALL maneuvers correctly 100% of the time once they are released to the line. That applies to all pilots, but yes definitely low-timers.

 

[MusicMan]

Along those same lines, there are stories about newhires who crash on 50% of their V1 cuts throughout training and then they get the last few and pass their rides. Should never happen if you have a multi-engine ticket and you are a competent, experienced multi-engine pilot.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Maybe at some places you'll get attitude from management, but I bet most Training/Standards folks (even those in management) know the score...

Only if they haven't stolen a play from the Swiss playbook:

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/index.html?siteSect=161&sid=5936602&cKey=1121156982000

 

[Kenny]

Whether we like it or not, 300 hour FO's are going to continue, for the forseable future at least, to be hired by the regionals.

Age isn't really the problem, however the vast majority of us are "Type A" personalities and with that I think having a bit of an ego is natural. The difference as far as being a bit older is concerned, is that as each year goes by, you realize a little bit more clearly that you're not quite as bullet proof as you think you are when you in your early 20's and full of enthusiasm. With experience, I'd like to think comes a bit more caution and a higher sense of self preservation. At least that's what I have found.

Having said that, if anything AWAC's training has become harder and even a bit more ruthless as the new-hire TT's have decreased. The training dept doesn't seem to be shy about canning someone who's not performing, regardless of whether it's during indoc or by the time they reach the sims. If you have a good attitude, they'll work with you but they have their standards.

As far as I've seen this has been borne out by the new FO's I've been flying with. I've been amazed at just how well they actually fly the RJ. Generally they've taken advice well and asked nothing but insightful and intelligent questions. Sure there's the odd one who turns up with 3.5 stripes and bit of a chip but this profession has a way of humbling you, just when you think you've got it nailed.

The details about the PVD episode will be out soon enough but if what I've heard, from pretty reliable sources, is true. It'll make all of us shake our heads in dis-belief.

Be careful and fly safe

 

[WSurf]

Age isn't really the problem, however the vast majority of us are "Type A" personalities and with that I think having a bit of an ego is natural. The difference as far as being a bit older is concerned, is that as each year goes by, you realize a little bit more clearly that you're not quite as bullet proof as you think you are when you in your early 20's and full of enthusiasm. With experience, I'd like to think comes a bit more caution and a higher sense of self preservation. At least that's what I have found.


Be careful and fly safe

Bingo!