Psa J4J

[d328pilot]

Yep, but they want to change it to meet their needs. If they just follow the agreement, I dont think we would be too upset.

 

[PoorJetDriver]

The agreement is what it is... Don't change it now to save your butts due to the MDA pilot's lawsuit. What is being asked for now is not the agreement.

 

[UZAInstructor]

For the guy asking what the J4J at PSA means for newhires.............apparently it means more time in the pool, for those of us who had a class this month. Just got a call cancelling my Jan 30th class.

 

[wanabe_fo]

life jackets

More time in the pool! I think I need a life jacket! Got the same news 20 min ago. Nothing like short notice.

 

[svcta]

Again.......I weep for the profession.

No way my kids will be allowed to participate in this industry, especially when the guardians of the profession when they get to be newbies in the business will be these whiny, that belongs to me not you, I can't wait my turn, that isn't what I expected when I signed that deal, your a scab, I am entitled to that, stand tall so we can slip in under the radar and take your job, people who have no idea the sacrifices that have been made by some for company and profession.

You think you have it tough? Open your eyes and look around.

End of rant.

A350

Okay....correct me if I'm wrong...but does the j4j program stipulate that the only way more will be brought in at this point (SINCE THE APL WAS EXHAUSTED, EVERYBODY ON IT HAD MORE THAN 1 CHANCE TO COME TO PSA), is if mailine furloughs again, or if PSA gets new jets. The original order was for 85 with certain options for more(we have what, 49 at the end of the day and an appropriate # of J4J caps).

Now....weren't the pilots @ MDA just involved in a law suit against everyone(who's whining now) stating that they WERE A SEPARATE COMPANY from mainline?

So which is it guys? It seems to me that we're dealing with a pilot group that can't look at themselves in the mirror and say "I made my choice, sure sucks to be a grown up sometimes". You had the chance to go to PSA, you took another path......you turned down a job @ Republic that was offered to you under J4J protocol(as I understand it)........you were just stomping and stammering around screaming that you weren't a mainline pilot whilst working for MDA.

You made several choices at this point....YOU MADE THE WRONG CHOICES. Live with it. Is this how you raise your children? "Don't worry, Timmy. If you hold your breath and stomp your feet long enough you may get your way every time". I don't ever want to meet your ugly little kids anyway, so I'll move away from that one.

Understand this.......my carreer is not your golden parachute. Some of your friends came to PSA. You may have had the conversation back then about why MDA was a better choice for you(or for anybody). Turns out you were wrong.

I'd love to put myself in a position one day where I could not make a bad choice.

I don't want anything othere than what I've earned. And I've earned the right to have my bosses respect the contract. So F........U.

Rant over.

 

[PoorJetDriver]

I agree with several points you have made including they have turned down jobs under the J4J protocol at Republic, however the MDA pilot's lawsuit contends they are indeed mainline pilots. To support their position they have pointed out among other things that MDA did not have it's own certificate.

 

[Crzipilot]

SVCTA,

just to get a few facts straight. Look up the definition of an Affected Pilot. And how one goes about getting onto the APL list.

• An “Affected Pilot” is a pilot on the US Airways Pilots System
Seniority List who (a) has been furloughed or has been issued notice of
furlough under Section 23(B) of the Agreement, (b) has been recalled
to US Airways and subsequently has again been furloughed or issued
notice of furlough, or (c) has received notice of furlough from MDA, a
Participating Wholly Owned Carrier, or a Participating Affiliate
Carrier

And a quick correction, is that the lawsuit they filed wasn't saying they were never part of mainline, quite the opposite. The arbitration they went through, was the company saying they were a seperate division, and their arguement was that they weren't. The airplanes going to republic was a change of control, not a simple sale of assets.

Anyways, alot of the arguments and assumptions that many have come up, just basically prove that the majority of you haven't read the LOA's governing this. If one did, some of the statements made wouldn't have been made.

 

[OneTuffGuy]

You can all go f your self as far as i am concerned you had a chance to come to PSA and passed it up to fly a bigger RJ yeah thats right the EMB-170 is a regional jet also.... oh but wait you still used US Air as a call sign so it must be a mainline plane then...no it still said express on the side of it. you where all offered jobs at Republic or wherever all your jets went and you said NO took your ball and went home. To Damn Bad you cant have your cake and eat it too. If you want come and sit in the right seat just like the rest of us had to and work your way up to a Capt position. I have a good idea why not sue ALPA again and everyone else that worked so well last time.

 

[nethan]

Is Mesa taking them over there as well? I was under the impression that this latest group was only being forced on PSA. In that case, why doesn't AWAC take them. They are having a heck of a time staffing their flights. You know, you pay to play, you might as well get all the benefits.

 

[PoorJetDriver]

I too wonder about AWAC they are now operating jets that were originally awarded to Mesa under the j4j protocol (I am aware not all of the Mesa aircraft flown for U were awarded under j4j). How do they now operate those same aircraft without j4j?

 

[PoorJetDriver]

SVCTA,

just to get a few facts straight. Look up the definition of an Affected Pilot. And how one goes about getting onto the APL list.

• An “Affected Pilot” is a pilot on the US Airways Pilots System
Seniority List who (a) has been furloughed or has been issued notice of
furlough under Section 23(B) of the Agreement, (b) has been recalled
to US Airways and subsequently has again been furloughed or issued
notice of furlough, or (c) has received notice of furlough from MDA, a
Participating Wholly Owned Carrier, or a Participating Affiliate
Carrier

And a quick correction, is that the lawsuit they filed wasn't saying they were never part of mainline, quite the opposite. The arbitration they went through, was the company saying they were a seperate division, and their arguement was that they weren't. The airplanes going to republic was a change of control, not a simple sale of assets.

Anyways, alot of the arguments and assumptions that many have come up, just basically prove that the majority of you haven't read the LOA's governing this. If one did, some of the statements made wouldn't have been made.

Would one have received a furlough notice from MDA if one had taken the position flying the same aircraft for the same pay from the same base with Republic?

 

[Swaayze]

Just FYI I don't work for MDA, nor did I particpate in J4J.

How anyone can question whether MDA pilots are mainline pilots is amazing. What operating certificate were they using? USAirways'. Very simple.

Is this unfortunate for everyone involved? Yes. Is it being done per the J4J agreement that all parties signed? Yes.

You are justified in whining about how it sucks and you won't get to upgrade as soon, but please quit implying that this is some sort of illegal conspiracy. IMO, it's very unbecoming and illuminates one big reason this job has ceased being a profession.

 

[flyguy8]

The pilots in question that are elgible for the J4J are the ex-PDT/ALG guys that went to MDA, got a mainline seniority #, and then got furloughed. They are now on the APL list. All of the mainline guys have passed the opportunity to go to PSA. Like it or not, they will be elgible to particpate in the J4J program.

 

[PoorJetDriver]

Therein lies the question, how is it that the language states they would be able to flow back to their respective wholly owned carriers and now they can come to PSA?

 

[CRJDog]

The pilots in question that are elgible for the J4J are the ex-PDT/ALG guys that went to MDA, got a mainline seniority #, and then got furloughed. They are now on the APL list. All of the mainline guys have passed the opportunity to go to PSA. Like it or not, they will be elgible to particpate in the J4J program.

PDT nor ALG provided jets to PSA in exchange for jobs nor did they ever fly for mainline so how much of a gawd-awful-sh!tty mess is this becoming?

 

[Clipper_Aurora]

Original J4J Program, Originally supposed to have 80 something jets to PSA,
Dont' see anymore jets

Game has changed!

your jets went to Republic, go join em'

 

[328dude]

Pilots employed by a Participating Wholly Owned Company Carrier who became MDA pilot's or US Airways pilots under this Attachment B, may flow back to their respective Participating Wholly Owned Carriers. US Airways pilots employed by MDA, if furloughed from MDA may displace into positions at Participating Wholly Owned Carriers in order of their seniority as US Airways pilots in accordance with the Flow Through Letter of Agreement (LOA#__) to be agreed to by the Company and Association.

It's clear AA's attempt to enter into hurried negotiations during December for a flow through agreement with PSA, was an attempt to settle this part of LOA 91.

To this date, no flow through letter has been drafted or presented.

 

[Crzipilot]

Would one have received a furlough notice from MDA if one had taken the position flying the same aircraft for the same pay from the same base with Republic?

Well just to clarify something again, The republic positions are being filled via the J4J protocols and the APL list. I.E. these guys got furlough notices (I presume) and the positions and class dates have/are being posted as J4J open positions. It goes down the APL list to those that have preferenced republic or other. And yes there are guys taking those positions at Rep. now that the arbitration is over. How many not sure, someone else would know that.

328dude, I agree with your sentiment that the flow through went to the front burner due to the furloughs at MDA. I also agree that the PDT and ALG guys were supposed to flow BACK to their respective WO carrier. Not sure what's happend on the PDT side, something about the PDT MEC said they didn't want them back or something, might want to find out what happened there.

As to the comment that the MDA guys turned down PSA, well I think you'll find that's not all entirely true. There were positions at PSA and MDA open at the same time. So some never truely turned down PSA, they choose MDA first. At which time their name is "removed" from the APL list, as they had chosen a J4J position. The catch though is within the LOA's it states one becomes an Affected Pilot when furloughed from US/MDA etc etc.
The section you pointed out with the unnegotiated LOA, kinda states the same thing, except that the US guys can come to a J4J postiion with their US seniority, I.E. I would imagine meaning displacing the current J4J's at PSA.
From what I've also heard, it's supposedly 30 positions or so that are targeted for backfill, as well as determining whose eligible to bid on that or not. Dunno, just talk I've heard.

As to the AWAC jets etc.....what has been told, is that the original 70 jets on property are exempt from J4J. Mesa had the first 70 and AWAC is taking mesa's position so their jets are exempt.
Anyways, just forwarding what I've heard..

 

[WSurf]

I am not sure what happened with the Flowbacks to PDT! I heard that a bunch of the agreements were never signed or official, thats the reason they didn't come back. Plus I am sure management didn't want a bunch of senior Capts. coming back (There were a bunch of Senior ALG folks that took the MDA offer instead of the merge with PDT) A lot of PDT people were a bit pissed because they wanted to keep some kinda of flowthru to mainline. Then there was (Like You Guys) all the FO's that didn't want them back because of Upgrades and etc. I probably would have have downgraded also, so I was kinda hoping it wouldn't happen also I guess.
All I can say is ALPA really screwed up with this J4J Thing. I really honesty can say now I am glad we didn't get any RJ's on our property if having to deal with this was gonna happen. Good Luck to all of us!!

 

[PoorJetDriver]

As to the AWAC jets etc.....what has been told, is that the original 70 jets on property are exempt from J4J. Mesa had the first 70 and AWAC is taking mesa's position so their jets are exempt.
Anyways, just forwarding what I've heard..


The original 70 jets were operated by Mesa, Trans States and Chatauqua. Not all 70 went to Mesa.

 

[svcta]

SVCTA,

just to get a few facts straight. Look up the definition of an Affected Pilot. And how one goes about getting onto the APL list.

And a quick correction, is that the lawsuit they filed wasn't saying they were never part of mainline, quite the opposite. The arbitration they went through, was the company saying they were a seperate division, and their arguement was that they weren't. The airplanes going to republic was a change of control, not a simple sale of assets.

Anyways, alot of the arguments and assumptions that many have come up, just basically prove that the majority of you haven't read the LOA's governing this. If one did, some of the statements made wouldn't have been made.

Okay everbody, tell me if I just don't read that well. It seems pretty clear that the argument was that the MDA pilots were fooled....they were never aware that MDA was mainline.......

"About 230 MidAtlantic Airways pilots are suing three airlines and their union for $400 million claiming they were duped into believing that MidAtlantic was its own (lower-paying) entity when it was, in fact, part of (higher-paying) US Airways. In fact, MidAtlantic hired some of the 1,800 pilots that had been laid off by US Airways. "As it turns out, there was no MidAtlantic," Michael Haber, the New York lawyer representing the pilots, told the Allegheny Times. "It was never anything except a name. These people were tricked into believing they worked for an entity that never existed." The suit claims MidAtlantic was operated under the same government certificate as US Airways. It also claims the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) was complicit in the scam. The pilots claim ALPA and US Airways camouflaged the fact that MidAtlantic was not a separate airline and negotiated wage and benefits packages for the regional carrier that were substantially less than what employees would receive as employees of US Airways. MidAtlantic was recently sold to Republic Airlines, which is also named in the suit, as is America West and Republic's investment company, Wexford Capital."

Whaddya make of that?

 

[Crzipilot]

SVCTA - this was your comment.

" Now....weren't the pilots @ MDA just involved in a law suit against everyone(who's whining now) stating that they WERE A SEPARATE COMPANY from mainline? "


The lawsuit, (which I'm not involved in and just have limited 2nd hand knowledge of) Does stipulate what you have posted from whatever press release. BUT the MDA pilots are not stating that they were a seperate company. What they are stating is in effect, MDA was NEVER a seperate entity, and certain US management are on record (arbitration case) as saying such. The lawsuit is that in effect, those positions should have been shown as recalled to USAIRWAYS as they were flying under that certificate. I believe it also stipulates that since they should have been shown as flying for US, they should have been flying under the US contract, and not a thrown together AA eagle contract which never was really formulated. And the lawsuit is against alpa saying that they knew of this, and allowed this and etc etc........so basically they weren't whining that they were a seperate company, they were whining that MDA was supposed to have a seperate certificate and seperate managment and a seperate entity. It never was. In fact pilots at MDA sit on the PHL Mainline LEC. How is that alpa would allow a seperate airline sit on it's LEC???

Your quote made it sound as though you were saying that MDA lawsuit was to prove that they were a seperate company.....quite the opposite I believe. They were told by ALPA and Company they were a seperate airline. In effect they were not.....hence the lawsuit to prove they were part of US.....mainline I guess...

Lawsuit = two sides
Company side/Alpa = MDA was seperate
MDA pilots = it was same

 

[Crzipilot]

The original 70 jets were operated by Mesa, Trans States and Chatauqua. Not all 70 went to Mesa.[/quote]


Not sure of the complete numbers but TSA and CHQ did and do have J4J pilots on property. There was a tracking list somewhere by tail number I believe that showed the exempt airframes and which had to comply to J4J. The explanation we got was, the mesa birds were the ones expempt and hence replaced by AWAC they get grandfathered. Agree with it??/ No....but that's alpa.

Not enough info out there to track it by oneself, nor do I know how they choose which 70 were exempt....I'm sure alpa has that info...LOL

 

[PoorJetDriver]

Aircraft were added after the j4j implementation at both Trans States and Chatauqua, however not very many. Trans States I believe only added 1 or 2 airframes. Among the contract carriers Mesa added the most. If you spent any time in PHL F crew room you would have seen many J4J participants at Mesa. They numbered at their peak over 120?. Somebody else could give better information than I. Mesa's entire CRJ operation in PHL during '04 it is my understanding, consisted of J4J aircraft. Again, there are those far better than I that could provide more specific information regarding specific airframes.

 

[ex j-41]

Alpa Question

Is it me or is it a conflict of interest when ALPA represents the
"Furloughed Mainline Pilots ie: J4J dudes" and they also represent the pilots
at PSA. So whose best interests do they have in mind?

Sounds like ALPA is both the Defendant and the Prosecutor.
It that really ethical? Are our dues going to pay for the J4J's legal
representation?

 

[smfav8r]

Is it me or is it a conflict of interest when ALPA represents the
"Furloughed Mainline Pilots ie: J4J dudes" and they also represent the pilots
at PSA. So whose best interests do they have in mind?

Sounds like ALPA is both the Defendant and the Prosecutor.
It that really ethical? Are our dues going to pay for the J4J's legal
representation?

I agree with you 100%. ALPA has really been playing both sides of the fence for quite some time now and it's beginning to bite them in the butt! I'm a furloughed US guy and I see both sides.

On one side, you have PSA, they had about 25 to 30 328 turbo-props. Now they have about 50 jets. For the 100 or so J4J guys and a 80%+ fleet increase to a all jet fleet, that's not too bad.

But, and this is a big one, senior F/O's have seen upgrade time windle.

It is a double edge sword!

Would PSA have all those shiny new jets if not for the J4J program? Or would they still be flying the 328 with no/minimal upgrades? Who knows?

Untill ALPA gives a little respect, not just take money from the regional airline pilots, this will continue!

What it really comes down to is every pilot at PSA should be making at lot more then the contract stipulates. (PSA and J4J)

Untill this happens, it's not worth bickering about seniority and upgrade!

Your flying jets with lots of lives every day in your hands, you should be compensated for it!

Just my 2 cents!

 

[ex j-41]

Oh Oh

On one side, you have PSA, they had about 25 to 30 328 turbo-props. Now they have about 50 jets. For the 100 or so J4J guys and a 80%+ fleet increase to a all jet fleet, that's not too bad.

I agree....And if getting J4J dudes on the property was the deal then so
be it. I don't think that any pilot at PSA thinks that they should not be
there at all. It is that the "New" ones are coming over when their jets
are at Republic that raises question.
How can we expect our Union to do the right thing when clearly they are
right in the middle of the two pilot groups.
Each group needs to be represented seperately.

Untill this happens, it's not worth bickering about seniority and upgrade!

It is tough to do when your checks every two weeks are $700.
The pressure of car loans, school loans, mortgage, wife, girlfriends etc...
Upgrade is the only light at the end of the tunnel, take that away and
we have nothing left.

 

[WSurf]

$700? Didn't know it was that bad over there!

 

[PoorJetDriver]

There have been very few Dornier FO's upgraded. I would guess less than 40.

 

[ex j-41]

Ouch

$700? Didn't know it was that bad over there!

And that is flying the 70 seater...and 2 not so skinny f/a's.