Profiling

[SkyBoy1981]

The only people who support profiling are the people who have never been profiled. Yes, your neighbour is profiled but is he a muslim? Does he have to go to the interrogation room each time he flies? Wasnt Jose Padilla a mexican? Should we profile all mexicans? Where does the line stop? Why is it that in the history of the world, no anglo-saxon has ever been profiled? Is it coincidence?

You lecturing a muslim about profiling is like telling a minority that there is no discrimination. Isnt it amazing that we are in other countries preaching to them about freedom when we are taking away the freedom of our own citizens. Af far as i know, the constitution didnt change after 911.

DEMOCRACY through HYPOCRICY.

Think about it.

If radical Americans had flown airliners into buildings for the purpose of killing Muslims, then I would expect to be profiled if I boarded an airliner in a muslim country....and I'm sure that I would be profiled. Hell, I probably wouldn't even be allowed on their airplane at all as they would probably have Americans completely banned from their country if we committed such an act. What if the tables were turned and this situation were the other way around? Do you think the muslim community would be as tolerant and accepting of what has happened as Americans have been? You think about that.

 

[$$$4nothin]

PROFILEING,
Fact:
92% of the U.S prison population is made up of Black and Latino males, in turn cops(and most other people) personally profile that type of person on a regular basis.
Fact:
Since 1975 88% of all world terrorism has been the work of somebody with "brown skin".
There comes a point in time when this doesn't become profile, and become fact.
As far as Im concerned, security screeners should profile every person they wouldn't want getting on an airplane with there father, mother, son, daughter, brother, sister, or any other family member. If that means I have to get extra screening while in uniform, so be it. I don't think there is one person on this post that give up five to ten extra minutes of there day to stop the deaths of hundreds or thousands.
Great quote from a B-52 Pilot: Lets bomb them all and let the army kill the ones we missed.
My spin on that: Lets profile them all and let the FFDO kill the ones we missed.
For all of you pansies out there who take offense to this. Go to He11.
For all of you who agree to what I'm saying, we should go drinking some time.
Here are some FACT sheets for all of you.
You can't argue with numbers, no matter who you are, or what color of skin, or religion.

http://www.harryroolaart.com/index.php?module=article&view=41&MMN_position=70:13

http://www.prisonsucks.com/

 

[DoinTime]

Fact:
Since 1975 88% of all world terrorism has been the work of somebody with "brown skin".

The link you provided www.harryroolaart.com says no such thing. If it says anything it says Americans have historically been insulated from international terrorism.

 

[Sir Humpalot]

Dointime,

I didnt find any facts in their either(www.harryroolaart.com). As far as i know, that site is totally fabricated without any supporting stats. Thats how many of these "profiling experts" get their facts through unregulated sites. Its like throwing meat to the wolves.

Here is another fact, many minorities are pulled over in cities when they have done nothing wrong and continously harassed or victimized. I was watching 20/20 awhile back and they talked about how african americans are something like 6% of the travellers and yet they are stopped 50% of the time at customs.

You mentioned how black and mexicans constitute something like 90% of the prison population. Statistics have shown that a black person found with weed is more likely to go to jail than a white suburbanite from middle class america. Who do you think does more drugs, white, blacks, or mexicans....you guessed it...whites and yet they dont end up in jail.

There is a huge discrepency in america between the social and ethnic classes. Dont sit here and lecture us about profiling when you have never suffered discrimination. Lastly, do you think that Jesus would show the hatred that your are showing about killing others?

 

[Sir Humpalot]

OOops, my last post was meant for $$$. Another thing, how arrogant and ethnocentric of you to group all terrorists are brown people.

 

[Sir Humpalot]

If radical Americans had flown airliners into buildings for the purpose of killing Muslims, then I would expect to be profiled if I boarded an airliner in a muslim country.

No they didnt get in airplanes but they did get into boats and travel a great distance to kill muslims. Many more muslims than you can ever imagine.

 

[kmox29]

I am so sorry for being white. I am so sorry for the Crusades that happened hundreds of years ago. I am also sorry for kicking Native Americans off their own lands. While I am at it, I'll apologize for slavery too.

Although I had nothing to do with any of it, nor do I believe any of it served any good or even had a sliver of decency, once again in life I feel I need to apologize for those things.

These terrible acts apparently are the counter arguement some have on this thread against profiling. I know history enough to not repeat it. I also have the ability to live in the now. I would like someone to tell me what percentage of current terrorist acts against the Western world were NOT committed by Islamic/Muslim radicals.

ps - Justifying terrorism by stating it is a result of US foreign policy is such a cop-out. Until American civilians start strapping bombs on themselves and running into crowded markets...shut up.

 

[Sir Humpalot]

Although I had nothing to do with any of it, nor do I believe any of it served any good or even had a sliver of decency, once again in life I feel I need to apologize for those things.

Many muslims have nothing to do with terrorism either but yet you group all of them together. As a muslim, i can openly tell you that the mosques i go to all condemn terrorism. As a matter of fact, we shun anyone that is involved with killing innocent people, for whatever cause, and we openly state that it does not represent islam. Niether myself, or anyone i am associated with, want anything to do with violence. Yet, people who dont know muslims openly attack us for our religion. We never blamed christianity for slavery, never did we ever blame christianity for the acts of the KKK, and we never blame christianity for the genocide in bosnia, we never blamed christianity for David Koresh, we never blamed christianity for other acts that dont represent christianity...so why do you blame us for our fanatics. You have no idea how many muslims have been killed innocently by both terrorism by fellow muslims and the western world.

Lets get one thing straight, there are fanatics in all religions but it is the educated people who make the real difference....stop the hatred.

 

[DoinTime]

ps - Justifying terrorism by stating it is a result of US foreign policy is such a cop-out. Until American civilians start strapping bombs on themselves and running into crowded markets...shut up.

Americans don't have to strap bombs to themselves and run into crowded markets. We drop those bombs from 30,000 feet with pinpoint accuracy. Government sponsorship is no exemption for acts of terror.

 

[kmox29]

As a muslim, i can openly tell you that the mosques i go to all condemn terrorism. As a matter of fact, we shun anyone that is involved with killing innocent people, for whatever cause, and we openly state that it does not represent islam. Niether myself, or anyone i am associated with, want anything to do with violence. Yet, people who dont know muslims openly attack us for our religion. You have no idea how many muslims have been killed innocently by both terrorism by fellow muslims and the western world.

I never said muslims support terrorism. I do not think Islam is anything other than another form of religion, equal to all others. I also don't think we should pull over and arrest anyone with a different color skin. That's F'ing stupid. Profiling to me means looking at an individual's background, history, and purpose and THEN determining what extra attention they should be receiving. In an airport environment, this would not be that difficult. You might even catch a Richard Reid before he tries to light his shoe.

 

[kmox29]

Americans don't have to strap bombs to themselves and run into crowded markets. We drop those bombs from 30,000 feet with pinpoint accuracy. Government sponsorship is no exemption for acts of terror.

Absolutely correct. And just who do you think we are trying to kill with those bombs? Innocent civilians? Women and childern? Or radical extremists bent on skewing a religion into justification for killing Americans.

Are you trying to tell me that the US Military is a form of terrorism? I don't doubt that people are upset with our government. So for you it's OK to hijack aircraft and slam them into private buildings, killing thousands of innocent NON-GOVERNMENT people because you're unhappy with US foreign policy? Not a single american citizen has much of anything to do with foreign policy, yet we were SPECIFICALLY targeted on 9/11. That is something I think you wouldn't find the US Military doing.

 

[DoinTime]

Not a single american citizen has much of anything to do with foreign policy, yet we were SPECIFICALLY targeted on 9/11.

Nobody in Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 either yet we bombed the sh*t out them anyway.

The 9/11 hijackers and the Bush administration have a lot in common. They both acted on blind hatred and a total disregard of common sense.

Its to bad intelligence is such a rare commodity in humans.

 

[kmox29]

Nobody in Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 either yet we bombed the sh*t out them anyway.

The 9/11 hijackers and the Bush administration have a lot in common. They both acted on blind hatred and a total disregard of common sense.

Its to bad intelligence is such a rare commodity in humans.

I guess you believe that we are trying to kill innocent Iraqi civilians. My whole point in my response to you was that one of the groups is trying to target extremists and another group is targeting whoever they can kill. We'll have to agree to disagree...

And in case you're wondering...I didn't vote for Bush.

 

[Black Water Dog]

We're on the same page with the TSA, at least we agree on something.

We only encourage women to get breast examinations. There is no forcing them. It is by choice. But by profiling all middle-eastern-looking people, you are FORCING them against their choice, and humiliating them because someone else of the same skin color bombed something earlier. It's completely unjustifiable.

This goes to show how difficult it is to have an adult conversation once PC rears it's ugly head. The profile of Al Quaida (sp?) is a bit more specific than "brown skin". No one is talking about ALL people of any group. The TSA throwing grandma against the wall makes no sense, whether she is Norwegian or Saudi. But the males 20-45 years old certainly who attended madderass (sp?) certainly deserve a close look.

Japanese internment... "necessary" at the time? How so? After the Pearl Harbor attacks, did the Japanese people living here even plan anything bad? No.

Rather hard to prove "the people" had plans, but the concern of sabateurs and the damage they could have caused was valid.

And then of course, the question is, "Is it ever okay to kill innocent civilians during war?" Most would answer no. But, we dropped two nuclear bombs over Japan... wiping out entire cities.

Truman had an interesting choice, didn't he? - tens of thousands in a day, or millions in months.

What's really sad? These al-Qaeda soldiers kill our American soldiers with weapons that WE gave them in the '80s to fight against the Russians. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Humph. Supposedly, the US government (CIA) actually worked with bin Laden forces way back in the 80s. Our foreign policy and course of action in the last 30 years or so has helped create these vicious terrorist monsters.

Our soldiers have been killed with Stinger missles? That is what we provided them. The rest is another Urban Myth propogated by the Blame America First crowd, and certainly a smokescreen to the topic at hand.

Spreading democracy in the middle east? Good luck with that.

Rather elitist of you to think those brown skinned people wouldn't want, or be able to handle, self determination. Seems to have worked quite well for the Japanese and Germans, though it took about six (6) years to stabilize those situations. Todays navel gazers have far, far less patience.

 

[Flyer1015]

ps - Justifying terrorism by stating it is a result of US foreign policy is such a cop-out. Until American civilians start strapping bombs on themselves and running into crowded markets...shut up.

A cop-out? More like the truth. Who besides the US has oppressive policies towards the middle east countries? Why is it that everytime the international community comes up with something against Israel, the US is the only country that puts in a VETO vote? No other country in the world favors Israel as much as we do. Who has provided Israel with weapons, tanks, armory, etc.... hint, it isn't Antarctica...

Australia has more or less the same rights, freedom, etc. that we American people enjoy. Have they gotten terrorist attacks? Nope. And only recently did London and Madrid get attacked by them, but they made it CLEAR that they would attack those who "help in the aggression in Iraq by supporting the USA."

Get one thing clear. 9/11 did NOT happen because we are "free people" and terrorists wanted to destroy that. Back then during 9/11, all of western europe, australia, new zealand, canada, greenland, a load of other countries were also living "free, western, sin ful lives."

No one blows themselves up to sh*t simply because they 'hate' your free, western life here. These acts are political. These terrorists have been brainwashed, true, but I am just as sure that there are quite a few out there who have lost their families in the US/Israel conflict, or even in Iraq due to our sanctions put their in the '90s. No one is born a terrorist. They become one.

* Yes, now, London got bombed. But al-Qaeda made it clear they would bomb those who helped the US war in Iraq. Similar reasoning for the Madrid, Spain bombings. Spain pulled out, giving a victory to the terrorists. England, being the SECOND biggest supporter of the US led war in Iraq, got hit by the terrorists.

The American people aren't to blame. It's our government's completely one sided policies siding with Isreal, constant troop presence in the Middle East, putting puppet-heads in middle eastern countries to get the oil interest, and now the USA forcing "democracy" into their country. HA.

If China INVADED and BOMBED the USA tomorrow, because they believe in communism and want to spread communism to us because they think that way of life is better, wouldn't you fight back? Wouldn't you kill their Chinese troops? So, I'm not surprised by the insurgents in Iraq.


No other country in the world has oppressed the middle east as bad as the US has in the last 40-50 years. It's about time we admit the root of terror. Fess up to the injustices.

I'm not saying give up to terrorism, but I am saying is that we seriously need to re-evaluate the US foreign policy, our treatment of the middle east as a whole, and take corrective action.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

No they didnt get in airplanes but they did get into boats and travel a great distance to kill muslims. Many more muslims than you can ever imagine.

You still didn't answer my questions, chief....so I will ask them again. What if the tables were turned and this situation were the other way around? What if we had a group of "radical Americans" who were commiting random acts of terror against Muslims? And no, don't feed me this "but you already are" bullsh!t. We aren't planting bombs on busses and we aren't running airplanes into office buildings for the purpose of causing fear and terror among the innocent people. Do you think the muslim community would be as tolerant and accepting of what has happened as Americans have been if we were the ones who commited these acts? Do you think they would refrain from profiling any and all Americans? Do you think they would be afraid to hold Americans at gunpoint in an airport security line and make us strip down to nothing in fear that it might offend us? I don't think so, and if you do then you need to wake up and smell the house burning down.

 

[Flyer1015]

Another thing to consider is that the term 'terrorism' is heavily misunderstood/misused by people.

According to dictionary.com, which uses the The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language and the Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary , terrorism is defined as:

" The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. "


Look at that definition again.


The unlawful use or threatened use of force (US military action in Iraq) or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies (US forcing Iraqis to become democratic), often for ideological or political reasons (doing it for our own Bush-led political reasons... you name it, oil, Israel's security, finishing a war is daddy started, etc)

By that definition, the war in Iraq can be classified as terrorism...

But is it? Of course not! So, it's ALWAYS depending on how YOU interpret it.

And keep in mind with those radical muslim terrorists, they are terrorists to US. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.... whether the IRA or a radical muslim terrorist.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

You liberals just never stop thinking do you? You are so full of definitions and technicalities, yet I find it utterly amazing that you have absolutely no common sense. Liberals and lawyers will be the downfall of our country.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

And by the way, you didn't answer my questions either.

 

[Murphy]

I was just part of a group of 4 that flew out of DCA in Air Force blues. 2 out of the 4 of us got the body cavity search by TSA. I escaped the pleasure but got to listen to other passengers walk by me shaking their heads in disbelief and saying how they couldn't believe they were doing this to people in uniform.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I feel for you Murphy. It really is ridiculous to see the people who fight for our freedom have to go through such nonsense.

Flyer1015, you keep detouring the topic with references to the war in Iraq (as you liberals are known for doing). The topic is profiling...lets stick with that.

 

[Flyer1015]

You still didn't answer my questions, chief....so I will ask them again. What if the tables were turned and this situation were the other way around? What if we had a group of "radical Americans" who were commiting random acts of terror against Muslims? And no, don't feed me this "but you already are" bullsh!t. We aren't planting bombs on busses and we aren't running airplanes into office buildings for the purpose of causing fear and terror among the innocent people. Do you think the muslim community would be as tolerant and accepting of what has happened as Americans have been if we were the ones who commited these acts? Do you think they would refrain from profiling any and all Americans? Do you think they would be afraid to hold Americans at gunpoint in an airport security line and make us strip down to nothing in fear that it might offend us? I don't think so, and if you do then you need to wake up and smell the house burning down.

I honestly don't know how it would be the other way around. If we were living in Afghanistan, and we did terrorist acts against them, then we probably would be profiled at gunpoint.

*BUT* that's due to the fact that you have no rights under the Taliban rule. An official government form was non-existent under their rule.

We here at America have a constitution, and a bill of rights that need to be honored for our people living here. As soon as you start to discriminate (profile) we go back on everything people have fought for in this country.

Example. Jose Padilla. Terrorist? You bet. Bad guy? Yes. BUT... he is still a CITIZEN of the United States. And as such, he SHOULD be afforded all the rights for a US citizen including the right to fair representation, a fair and speedy trial.

But nope... President Bush, and the conservatives, in their never-ending pursuit to circumvent the constitution, invent the term "Enemy Combatant" and hold him and others giving them no rights.

We are at war with terror. We are at war with Iraq (and were at Afghanistan)... ANYONE caputred in this WAR of terror is a prisoner of WAR. But nope, Bush circumvents the constitution by calling them "enemy combatants," and does not hold them to geneva conventions and the standards set out for prisoners of war.

I'm sorry, but it will be the conservatives who will be our downfall. They have already divided the world with their current actions, and continue to make America more and more hated all across the world... leading to a more dangerous environment for all of us.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I honestly don't know how it would be the other way around. If we were living in Afghanistan, and we did terrorist acts against them, then we probably would be profiled at gunpoint.

dang right we would.

We here at America have a constitution, and a bill of rights that need to be honored for our people living here. As soon as you start to discriminate (profile) we go back on everything people have fought for in this country.

While I have the utmost respect for these documents, they were created during a time when people had morals and common sense. You see, back then people didn't want to blow themselves up on busses for the sole purpose of causing death and destruction to innocent people. These were not issues that had to be dealt with back then. Thanks to lawyers, and you liberals, nothing can be taken for granted anymore. Everything has to be spelled out, word for word. Pretty soon we will need to create documents for people explaining to them that pants go on one leg at a time, and you should walk one foot in front of the other. Oh, and don't forget to breath while you're at it.

Example. Jose Padilla. Terrorist? You bet. Bad guy? Yes. BUT... he is still a CITIZEN of the United States. And as such, he SHOULD be afforded all the rights for a US citizen including the right to fair representation, a fair and speedy trial.

Good point, there's needs to be much more scruitiny on who is becomming citizens in our country. There's no reason that people should be allowed to come over with the intent of causing us harm and manage to become a US citizen. There needs to be ways to filter these people out.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Furthermore, the Constitution was created to protect those who are innocent. What sickens me is that in today's world it seems to be used more to protect the guilty.

 

[Flyer1015]

Skyboy,

I understand exactly where you're coming from. I respect your opinion, and understand why you feel that way.

But, as always in politics, there are always different sides that people take. We happen to be on different sides


Murphy,

Sorry about your ordeal. I already stated my views about the stupid TSA organization. You can scroll back to read if you'd like. I think it's completely unacceptable to harass flight / cabin crews as they currently are. And of course, they 'conveniently' let pass the mechanics, cleaners, etc. etc.

 

[kmox29]

No other country in the world has oppressed the middle east as bad as the US has in the last 40-50 years. It's about time we admit the root of terror. Fess up to the injustices.

My next door neighbor from Iraq would disagree with you. But I am sure you have some obscure point to prove HIM even wrong. Maybe I should put him in touch with you so you could convince him the US government is a form of terrorism and how we are forcing a terrible lifestyle on the Iraqi people.

Anyhow, we should still be able to profile (my original thread).

 

[Sir Humpalot]

Skyboy,

I will answer your mundane question. Try to think and absorb it in before you start opening your flap. If americans hijacked airplanes and crashed it into buildings, then americans will be profiled by countries who dont value freedom as much as america does. There were saudis who hijacked that airplane and yet america is in bed with them. Many muslims are not saudi, nor do they care to be. Muslims are a great diverse of people, more diverse than christians are. They come from all walks of life and many of my friends are white americans who converted to islam. How would you profile them? How would you profile Padilla? I spoke to the head of the TSA in the western region and he talked about how profiling was wrong. Yes, the head of the TSA spoke about it and i am sure he knows more than you.

But if we are overseas and giving people that so called FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY, then why are we taking away people's right here. AS i said earlier, democracy through hypocricy. Its easy for you to say profile cuz you are the one who wants to take away people's rights, the oppressor of so many, but if anyone wants to take away your rights (guns, free speech,..etc), i bet you will be the one biatchin.

 

[Sir Humpalot]

The american government is a hypocritical organization that wants to protect its elitist status. They want to control as many countries that they can and in the process use any means. We supported Saddam, General Pinochet, Noriega, the shah of Iran, and countless other dictators but as soon as they upset big bad america, we overthrew them.

If we support democracy so much, why is it that we didnt recognize the democratically elected Islamic party in Algeria? DEMOCRACY THROUGH HYPOCRICY.

We support Israel, a huge violator of human rights and UN resolutions (General Assembly Resolution 194, Security Council Resolution 242, Security Council Resolution 446, General Assembly Resolution 3236) but yet we dont invade israel? Why is that,... cuz america is Israel's Biatch. Yet, you talk about people's rights in Iraq like America invented human rights. There is a reason why people dont like the american government and the hypocrites that defend it.

I also fought in the first gulf war and i have served my country, there is absolutely no reason why i or any muslim should be profiled because of our religion. As far as i know, the constitution and our amendments didnt change after 911.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I spoke to the head of the TSA in the western region and he talked about how profiling was wrong. Yes, the head of the TSA spoke about it and i am sure he knows more than you..

Oh, the head of the prized TSA said that huh? Then it must certainly be true, after all there is an agency that has everything figured out.

I said nothing about profiling islamic Americans. The profile should be those who are not citizens of our country, male, of middle eastern descent, who aren't traveling with their families and such. I said nothing about profiling each and every islamic individual.

Common sense says, in order to prevent another 9/11 type attack, we have to think of ways we could have prevented the last one. The way I see it if more detailed security screening had been done to the profile of individual that I listed above on 9/11 (which fits the profile of the majority of Al Quaeda), the attacks very well may not have happened. But since that is such a violation of rights, and you are the educated liberal here, please tell me in your infinite wisdom what is a better solution to prevent such an attack from happening again?

I think the bottom line here is that we can only agree to disagree. As Flyer said, you have your views and I have mine.

 

[Black Water Dog]

Example. Jose Padilla. Terrorist? You bet. Bad guy? Yes. BUT... he is still a CITIZEN of the United States. And as such, he SHOULD be afforded all the rights for a US citizen including the right to fair representation, a fair and speedy trial.

But nope... President Bush, and the conservatives, in their never-ending pursuit to circumvent the constitution, invent the term "Enemy Combatant" and hold him and others giving them no rights.

Since you presumably are a pilot, you probably have a passport close at hand. Read the first few pages. You become an enemy combatant, you forfiet your citizenship. BTW, enemy combatant is a rather old term defined in the Geneva Convention and probably goes back much further than that. Not invented by Bush. Here is a test for you:

BUSH
BUSH
BUSH

Is your blood pressure up now? Remember Flyer1015, when you hate someone they own you.