Professional Pilot Salary Study 2005

[rice]

You guys are all insane! GVflyer, I make those numbers too, but not everyone does. Average out your salary for the past 20 years, actually, draw a line chart. You'll see that our salaries have risen sharply in the past few years. But not everyone's has. Why do I think you're all insane? Because anything north of 100K is plenty of dough. Yes, I make almost double that and don't want to give a penny back, but c'mon, look what a teacher, a doctor, a nurse makes. We're well paid, even overpaid at times (speaking for myself). I like what I make, but I know plenty of happy pilots supporting their families, loving their boss and their coworkers and flying a IV for 95K per year. Bottom line: make your best deal, fly a great airplane for a great company and be satisfied. Don't try to keep up with the Jones's.
Ace

INSANE??????
"$100k plenty of dough", What are you kidding me? FYI, many Teachers, Cops, Nurses, Attorneys, and other occupations make $100k or more in the NY/NJ/CT area. Why because they have to keep up with the cost of living in the area. Your comment about Doctors is just ludicrous. Now how many of us "Professional Pilots" have a defined benefit plan such as those teachers and cops? Not many in this day and age. And what about the guys working for management companies? You won't see many of them with perks such as stock options, qtrly bonuses, etc.
You may know plenty of people flying a G-IV for $95k but I guarantee you they don't live within a 2 hr drive of TEB/HPN/FRG/MMU/BDL.
Try finding a house in the greater tri-satate area for under $500k!! I'm not talking a palace either, a 3-4 bdr house averaging 25 to 30 yrs old with taxes up the ying yang typically starts in the high $450k+ range but if you want anything near new it'll bump you north of $600k nowaday. Thats about $3500/mo just to cover the housing nut not to mention car payments, (I drive a dodge thank you), insurance, yada yada bills, college funds and the like. Guess how much is left over from that extravagant $100k for a self funded (401k) retirement plan? ZIP, ZERO, NADA!!!!!!!!
I don't want/need the Jones' stuff but theres no way I'm going upside down each month in my finances just so I can keep the boss happy. If he can afford to own the plane he can afford to pay a living wage in the area which its based.
But hey lets not be greedy.

 

[PMVULB AvMgr]

I know two large banks out of HPN and I would be very, very surprised if they had more than 3 or 4 regular line captains making over $150K, my guess is that niether has a regular line pilot over $175k.

I remember last year a good buddy of mine interviewed at Citi, they were looking for a Global Express & F900 captain (dual qual). They called my buddy back for a sim ride and told him that they were starting at $90K. He said asked if that was FO and they said, "no that's captain". He asked about a raise or if they were negotiable, they said, "no".

The two banks you are referring to have totally different salary structures. Yes, Citi is extremely (shall we say) frugal when it comes to paying their employees, from pilots through ops and maintenence right to the flight attendants.

JPMC on the other hand has a pilot staff averaging around age 60, who are paid accordingly. These guys are not youngsters who are starting out at $45k flying SIC in the Challenger. They are all well seasoned professionals who are paid what they are worth and bring to the table. The individual running Flight Ops makes DOUBLE the base salary of the individual running Citi's Ops. That's a fact. And let's not forget the Flight Attendant who joined JPMC from Citi and is NOW happier than she's ever been, about both salary as well as working conditions.

So don't put the two banks into the same category, they are worlds apart.

 

[G4G5]

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[Ace-of-the-Base]

If you were the CEO of the largest bank in America who would you want as your next captain?

I certainly wouldn't be looking for an MBA.

So answer this friendly question: What is the most you think we should be paid?

Ace

 

[rice]

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Dang, missed this one before it got edited!!!! Bet it was good though.
Call me, we'll do lunch at the deli but it'll have to be only half sandwiches so I can put a little something in the 401k this month .

 

[rice]

I certainly wouldn't be looking for an MBA.

So answer this friendly question: What is the most you think we should be paid?

Ace

Thats about as smart as asking how good looking the wife or girlfriend should be!!!!!!

BTW, I know a G-IV guy making $95k who's wife is hideous. But he's happy.

 

[G4G5]

I certainly wouldn't be looking for an MBA.

So answer this friendly question: What is the most you think we should be paid?

Ace

It depends upon what the MBA was in, Aviation mgt or finance, certianly would give you a leg up on another potential candidate. Embry Riddle and most aviation colleges now offer aviation related MBAs.

I have been around long enough to discover that you should be paid the equivallent of what you bring to the table. Never sell yourself short. The difference between corporate and the airlines is that you have no union support when negotiating your salery. You have to cut the best deal that you can, and for a lot of us our saleries are directly proportionate to our abilities to negotate.

A key thing to remember is Quality of Life. Only you can put a price on it and Mr. Smith has no way of placing it in his survey. Just last week I had a friend call me up for advice. He was going between 2 offers. Offer 1 paid more then offer 2 by approx $10k. Offer 2 was with a company that shut down the flt department every X-mas through New Years and offered more total time off. My buddy was really getting caught up in the numbers until I asked him to place a dollar figure on having to tell his daughter that he would not be home for the next X number of Christmas's.

So to answer your friendly question, get whatever number makes you sleep well at night beacuse at the end of the day if you are not happy then you will not do the best you can and subsequently your employer will not be happy.

Good luck.

Getting back to the pro pilot survey, I have always felt it was a bit low but I have never taken it seriously because I don't know all that many pilots that actually fill it out.

 

[G4G5]

I know two large banks out of HPN and I would be very, very surprised if they had more than 3 or 4 regular line captains making over $150K, my guess is that niether has a regular line pilot over $175k.

I remember last year a good buddy of mine interviewed at Citi, they were looking for a Global Express & F900 captain (dual qual). They called my buddy back for a sim ride and told him that they were starting at $90K. He said asked if that was FO and they said, "no that's captain". He asked about a raise or if they were negotiable, they said, "no".

The two banks you are referring to have totally different salary structures. Yes, Citi is extremely (shall we say) frugal when it comes to paying their employees, from pilots through ops and maintenence right to the flight attendants.

JPMC on the other hand has a pilot staff averaging around age 60, who are paid accordingly. These guys are not youngsters who are starting out at $45k flying SIC in the Challenger. They are all well seasoned professionals who are paid what they are worth and bring to the table. The individual running Flight Ops makes DOUBLE the base salary of the individual running Citi's Ops. That's a fact. And let's not forget the Flight Attendant who joined JPMC from Citi and is NOW happier than she's ever been, about both salary as well as working conditions.

So don't put the two banks into the same category, they are worlds apart.

So then it's safe to say that you have at least one regular line captain making north of $175k and at least 3 or 4 making at least $150k. Because if that is what you are trying to tell us when you quoted me, I commend you.

As a former Jet Aviation employee, I can honestly tell you that I did not know of a single account that paid their pilots that well. Maybe I am wrong and I certianly hope that I am. Now that you folks are no longer part of Jet and the mgt structure I am glad to see you are raising the bar. Good luck.

Not to lump you in with the other guys because, "the Citi never sleeps" and they never pay.

 

[G4G5]

Dang, missed this one before it got edited!!!! Bet it was good though.
Call me, we'll do lunch at the deli but it'll have to be only half sandwiches so I can put a little something in the 401k this month .

Mon and Tues are shot, Wed looks like the best day this week.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

It depends upon what the MBA was in, Aviation mgt or finance, certianly would give you a leg up on another potential candidate. Embry Riddle and most aviation colleges now offer aviation related MBAs.

I have been around long enough to discover that you should be paid the equivallent of what you bring to the table. Never sell yourself short. The difference between corporate and the airlines is that you have no union support when negotiating your salery. You have to cut the best deal that you can, and for a lot of us our saleries are directly proportionate to our abilities to negotate.

A key thing to remember is Quality of Life. Only you can put a price on it and Mr. Smith has no way of placing it in his survey. Just last week I had a friend call me up for advice. He was going between 2 offers. Offer 1 paid more then offer 2 by approx $10k. Offer 2 was with a company that shut down the flt department every X-mas through New Years and offered more total time off. My buddy was really getting caught up in the numbers until I asked him to place a dollar figure on having to tell his daughter that he would not be home for the next X number of Christmas's.

So to answer your friendly question, get whatever number makes you sleep well at night beacuse at the end of the day if you are not happy then you will not do the best you can and subsequently your employer will not be happy.

Good luck.

Getting back to the pro pilot survey, I have always felt it was a bit low but I have never taken it seriously because I don't know all that many pilots that actually fill it out.

Therefore, you support my original post. I DO know plenty of pilots making around 100K and are very happy. QOL. You're preaching to the choir.

About the MBA crack, it's just my experience that the 'book' types can't fly themselves out of a box. Just my observation, not a scientific statement. But when I sit down and list what I, as a CEO, want in a pilot, a Master's degree doesn't show up on the list. A culture of safety, high flight time, time in type (sorry all you lower time guys, but I know that I can solve alot more problems now with a few thousand hours in the plane), good team building skills, good personality, health, loyalty, life satisfaction (happy person = good pilot), etc. These are the things that make a good pilot and a good employee. He needs to make good descisions, make my trophy wife happy and get along with others. Hmmmmm, I'm not sure I'd hire myself.

Ace

 

[Lead Sled]

Do any of you have the most recent NBAA salary survey? We moved to a new place a couple of months ago and I packed up a lot of that kind of stuff - now I can't find the B/CA issue that had it.

It’s time to renegotiate our salaries and I need to start getting my ducks in a row. I got this month’s Pro Pilot which has their annual survey. I’m really interested in the NBAA Astra and Falcon 50 figures for West Coast based Corporate Captains and Flight Department Managers. Do any of you guys have this information?

'Sled

 

[hogdriver00]

Surveys

Avcrew is supposed to have theirs out soon. Another good one is the Stanton Group survey (I think that's the name). It uses actual HR numbers and is not answered by pilots or department managers.

 

[RichardRambone]

This thread is hopeful and depressing. I make 22K/year but I understand Im just starting out. Maybe Ill get lucky and end up at a great corporate job or maybe a furloughed airline job where I was making a grand 23K/year. So why do I do this again?

 

[GVFlyer]

About the MBA crack, it's just my experience that the 'book' types can't fly themselves out of a box. Just my observation, not a scientific statement. But when I sit down and list what I, as a CEO, want in a pilot, a Master's degree doesn't show up on the list.

Ace

If you hire a military pilot he's going to have a Masters, you can't make field grade without it.

GV

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

If you hire a military pilot he's going to have a Masters, you can't make field grade without it.

GV

When I was younger, I was a good fisherman. I was especially good at baiting. Some even said I was a master.

I guess military experience and masters are just not a requirement that I would have. Many other things would be qualifications, just not those. Thankfully, I've retired as the CEO of a huge multi-national corporation and now I just fly this ol GV for fun!

Ace

 

[hogdriver00]

Tool

Ace, why are you being such a tool?

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Ace, why are you being such a tool?

Don't get your panties in a bunch, try to keep up with wich parts are serious and which are joking. You'll find this very helpful.

Ace (Billionair Pilot)

 

[pa56pa]

Does anybody but me think that the Professional Pilot Salary Study 2005 is skewed way to the low side? Since I left the Big G, I earn significantly more than what they are showing even as high salary for a chief pilot and thats before counting what I get for consultant work from my former employer and the stock options I get from my present one. I don't think my experience is atypical; I know other G550 and Global captains whose base compensation is at least $175K. I think a magazine article such as this that low balls salaries does us all a disservice when our respective human captial departments go out looking to see how much to give us for our annual raises, bonuses and other perks.

GV

Sooo.... what would be an average starting salary for an FO flying a G550 (corp. pt 91) ?? and make that be based in SFO?? <<<< curious

 

[Gumby]

Mon and Tues are shot, Wed looks like the best day this week.

Dang Rice, Spreading the love around again I see!!!

 

[semperfido]

Sooo.... what would be an average starting salary for an FO flying a G550 (corp. pt 91) ?? and make that be based in SFO?? <<<< curious

to pull a relavant number out the air you would have to specify a lot more.

 

[G100driver]

A fair and equitable salary, type rating, rapid upgrade and other considerations made this an excellent avenue for me to super-mids. I couldn't be happier.

Yes you could .... when you stop flying charter ... then true job satisfaction and happiness will set in

 

[pa56pa]

to pull a relavant number out the air you would have to specify a lot more.

such as??

 

[semperfido]

such as??

a new hire's compensation in P91 ops is usually derived from prior experience, compensation history, employment history, training, ratings, education, internal equity of operation, compensation culture of operation and level of experience req'd by the company. there would probably be a wide range that takes into account previously mentioned variables. therefore it could vary quite a bit, and to throw out a number without qualification would not help much. in my estimation the range could go from 60-120 for the position you asked about.

 

[capt601]

I think you should have to pay them to fly their plane!! hey, you'll get to fly all over the world for free, you should have to pay for that.

How's the wife and kids?

Sooo.... what would be an average starting salary for an FO flying a G550 (corp. pt 91) ?? and make that be based in SFO?? <<<< curious

 

[pa56pa]

a new hire's compensation in P91 ops is usually derived from prior experience, compensation history, employment history, training, ratings, education, internal equity of operation, compensation culture of operation and level of experience req'd by the company. there would probably be a wide range that takes into account previously mentioned variables. therefore it could vary quite a bit, and to throw out a number without qualification would not help much. in my estimation the range could go from 60-120 for the position you asked about.

I know where I stand.... and 60 isnt even NEAR where these people are willing to pay... lol . At least not in the bay area.... thanks. I think I'm gonna ask Capt601.

 

[pa56pa]

I think you should have to pay them to fly their plane!! hey, you'll get to fly all over the world for free, you should have to pay for that.

How's the wife and kids?

On 2nd thought.......

HUSH! before I sick my dog on u... I'm actually enjoying my schedule with these people while it lasts... I know that in the G, it will be a different story alltogether. It can only get better, and if not, I'm happy to stay domestic w/ my hot rod.

The family's doing fine, now that it's summer...!

 

[semperfido]

I know where I stand.... and 60 isnt even NEAR where these people are willing to pay... lol . At least not in the bay area.... thanks. I think I'm gonna ask Capt601.

on the other hand let's not be shortsighted, you might want to consider getting a few years on that acft even if the pay would be on the low side (if the opportunity is available to you), then you would have many other options available down the road.

 

[BuddhaJ]

I know two large banks out of HPN and I would be very, very surprised if they had more than 3 or 4 regular line captains making over $150K, my guess is that niether has a regular line pilot over $175k.

I remember last year a good buddy of mine interviewed at Citi, they were looking for a Global Express & F900 captain (dual qual). They called my buddy back for a sim ride and told him that they were starting at $90K. He said asked if that was FO and they said, "no that's captain". He asked about a raise or if they were negotiable, they said, "no".
He told them to save the sim money because they needed it more then he did. He now has a $175K G4 job at the same field and they got what they paid for.

Moral of the story, The jobs are out there if you look but for every descent job their is some dirtbag operation that will try to under pay you to work 17+ days a month if you let them.

Well good for you and your buddy...I guess some things never change...Gulfstream pilots are the best, they make the most, they are the smartest people in the world...oh yeah...and they're always right. I'd like to know..when you got your first job flying corporate...what did you make? did you start at the bottom or did they just give you lots of money because you told them to.

Lets set the record straight about Citi...coming from a person who works there...First of all, if you haven't noticed, I take offense to been labeled a "dirtbag operation" How many dirtbag operations own GLEX's and Falcons. I happen to be dual qualified and I can't remember the last time I worked more than 12 days in a month. Thats besides the point that my "dirtbag" company gives me 4 weeks of vacation...form the date of hire. How aabout job security with your 175K job? Working for the largest bank in the world, and one of the largest companies in the world, my job is as secure as you can get in aviation.

Its true...the salary ain't the greatest..but we all have to start somewhere. I happened to start 3 years ago and my salary has increased 25% since then. Doesn't sound too horrible does it?

As for the "lear" pilot we hired..you're right..we got what we paid for... a great guy and an excellent pilot. Best part...he doesn't complain...he's a professional and a team player.

We all have our reasons to work we work..I just hope we don't ever buy gulfstreams...its too hard being right all the time

 

[Ty Webb]

That dumb-ass article misstated my pay by about 50% . . . . . it was clear that it was written by someone who didn't have any particular knowlege of the subject.

For example, at my airline, most pilots upgrade by year three, but they show "5th year FO pay" and "10th year CA pay". There are only a handful of either of those guys. Way to skew the numbers. Either you made $46K or $165K, instead of the middle, where most of us are.

For the record, a CA with just over four years on property is looking at $132K/yr working probably 15 days a month and 11-12 RON.

 

[G4G5]

Well good for you and your buddy...I guess some things never change...Gulfstream pilots are the best, they make the most, they are the smartest people in the world...oh yeah...and they're always right. I'd like to know..when you got your first job flying corporate...what did you make? did you start at the bottom or did they just give you lots of money because you told them to.

Lets set the record straight about Citi...coming from a person who works there...First of all, if you haven't noticed, I take offense to been labeled a "dirtbag operation" How many dirtbag operations own GLEX's and Falcons. I happen to be dual qualified and I can't remember the last time I worked more than 12 days in a month. Thats besides the point that my "dirtbag" company gives me 4 weeks of vacation...form the date of hire. How aabout job security with your 175K job? Working for the largest bank in the world, and one of the largest companies in the world, my job is as secure as you can get in aviation.

Its true...the salary ain't the greatest..but we all have to start somewhere. I happened to start 3 years ago and my salary has increased 25% since then. Doesn't sound too horrible does it?

As for the "lear" pilot we hired..you're right..we got what we paid for... a great guy and an excellent pilot. Best part...he doesn't complain...he's a professional and a team player.

We all have our reasons to work we work..I just hope we don't ever buy gulfstreams...its too hard being right all the time

Brand new screen name. Total posts, one
Sorry I am not biting.