Probably a stupid question... wing inspection lights

[aa73]

Yeah, I'm bored...

Why do some airlines (UAL, DAL, CAL) turn on their wing inspection "ice" lights during the day when cleared for t/o.... does it really make a difference... it's hard to see. Just curious, is it in your ops manual or capt discretion?

We (AA) hardly ever use them during the day, and optional at night (I do, though.)

Thanks, back to my favorite reserve couch at the crash pad.

 

[Skank]

We do it because both the FAA and ICAO suggest turning on all available lights when on an active runway. Can you see them in the day? No. I guess it's just to keep the checklist and flows as simple as possible.

 

[aa73]

That makes sense, keeping the flows simple. AA mgt on the other hand tells us to "limit use of non essential lights to save bulb costs." However they do leave it up to capt's discretion.

 

[radarlove]

Do they also tell you that it is important to taxi at the speed of a crustacean, or is that also "capt's discretion"?

 

[aa73]

Do they also tell you that it is important to taxi at the speed of a crustacean, or is that also "capt's discretion"?

That, my friend, is the result of an absurdly long and complicated taxi/before t/o checklist we have. our CAs have to answer to every item on that list. they also have to make a "prepare for T/O" PA and chime the FAs when taking the runway. as a result, our CAs have to accomplish a lot of stuff that would normally be the F/Os duty, so that's why they taxi slow.

 

[radarlove]

Ahh.

I thought it was because they were paid by the minute. Oops.

 

[Jack Mehoff]

no way anyones checklist is longer then ours. we have 9 items for "below the line" on the before t/o!

 

[Pat Fabin]

Our taxi checklist on the 737-800 is two items. I think they could get it down to one....DAL/Boeing did a nice job keeping the taxi distractions to a minimum for us lowly gear slingers.

 

[COpilot]

At CO we have NO items on the B737, or B757/767 taxi check (there is no taxi ck). Everything is done on the Before start, and After start.

Really allows both persons attention to other things.

 

[canyonblue737]

same with SWA, there is no taxi checklist. you do a before taxi checklist and then taxi allows both pilots to do nothing but make sure they know where the heck they are going.

 

[PHX767]

I will attest that the AA checklist is really long and cumbersome. Take a long card with kind of small print, add that to a mechanical checklist down on the console that most items have 2 responses to , and now you know why it takes so long to get 'er done. Also maybe have to get new w&b from the acars, or new takeoff data if you guessed and got info for the wrong runway. And if you do a single engine taxi it gets real busy in the last few minutes.

On the lights: Most -80 guys will flip them all up/on to make it easy. Never flew with an AA Capt that wanted 'em otherwise. Then again I got laid off in Aug '03 so things may have changed....

 

[aa73]

CO and SWA pilots: What a great idea. The thinking at AA is, "Well, we did it that way on the Lockheed Electra so that's why we do it today, is there a problem?" Unfortunately, we still have a taxi checklist but it's pretty short - about 4 items. The rest is the "Before T/O" checklist.

So if you guys don't have a taxi checklist, do you have a "Before T/O" list?

p.s. Here's how absurd a mechanical checklist is: About two years ago we added "engine ignition" to the before t/o mechanical checklist. Guess how much it cost to install those two words to the MD80 mechanical checklist... $3000 per aircraft! and we have more than 300 MD80s. Do the math! Why they can't go to one plastic card per airplane is beyond me...

 

[geshields]

CO and SWA pilots: What a great idea. The thinking at AA is, "Well, we did it that way on the Lockheed Electra so that's why we do it today, is there a problem?" Unfortunately, we still have a taxi checklist but it's pretty short - about 4 items. The rest is the "Before T/O" checklist.

So if you guys don't have a taxi checklist, do you have a "Before T/O" list?

Yes we do have a before T/O checklist which is usually accomplished when we are number 2 for the runway...

 

[FR8mastr]

Back to the original topic, the ice lights do absolutely nothing but night blind the guys on the taxiways. You can not see the ice lights from behind so any potential "landing aircraft" wont see them anyway. In flight they can be seen, however when you see a bright white light in front of you, you think the aircraft is heading towards you ie landing lights. When in reality the aircraft is heading slightly left or right and away. If these ice lights were not on you could make out the nav lights and tell direction quickly.
Please give us a break and turn the ice lights off, especially on the ground.
I will give into the argument that ice lights are good for crossing active runways as an aircraft on final might actually see the ice lights in that situation.

 

[Pat Fabin]

Yeah, our 2 items on the 737 are flaps & flight controls. We could definitely move both of those to the afterstart or before takeoff. In any case, 2 is a heck of a lot better than any other airplane I've flown!

And for SWA, that makes sense to have both pilots looking out given your taxi speeds!

 

[canyonblue]

Why do some airlines (UAL, DAL, CAL) turn on their wing inspection "ice" lights during the day when cleared for t/o.... does it really make a difference... it's hard to see.

By posting this you did notice, so in effect it does accomplish what it is intended to do, notice the airplane.

 

[Cardinal]

The guy that crashes into me won't be the one at 12 o'clock, opposite direction, with his landing lights blazing. The guy that kills me will be coming from a direction I'm not usually scanning - over my shoulder. Exactly the direction the ice light points. Two Beech products collided at the 90 degree instersection of two runways in Quincy, Illinois during takeoff. Were it a little darker out, with ALL lights on, would it have made a difference? Maybe is good enough for me.

 

[FR8mastr]

Has there ever been a collision with one aircraft overtaking another from the 5 or 7 oclock position? It might be possible if you are hovering in a rotorwing. Someone approaching you from those positions will not hit you, as you are moving foward. Other than that two aircraft on a collision course even 90 degrees, dont start at 90 degrees. In that case the landing lights would be visable long before you can see an ice light. And by some miracle you missed the billion candle power landing light and saw the ice light, by the time you see it its too late.

 

[str8upflyrght]

Has there ever been a collision with one aircraft overtaking another from the 5 or 7 oclock position? It might be possible if you are hovering in a rotorwing. Someone approaching you from those positions will not hit you, as you are moving foward. Other than that two aircraft on a collision course even 90 degrees, dont start at 90 degrees. In that case the landing lights would be visable long before you can see an ice light. And by some miracle you missed the billion candle power landing light and saw the ice light, by the time you see it its too late.

Have you ever heard of Constant Bearing Decreasing Range? You can get hit from any clock position if the relative speed works out (or doesn't work out in the case of a mid air)

 

[Spooky 1]

Flight control question

At CO we have NO items on the B737, or B757/767 taxi check (there is no taxi ck). Everything is done on the Before start, and After start.

Really allows both persons attention to other things.

How do you do your flight control check, i.e., before you start the taxi or what. On the 67 at least you must have to get the flaps out to check the OB aileron movement, so do you just wait for that to happen before moving the airplane? Just curious as I am looking for a better way and I agree that less is better after you start to taxi.

 

[aa73]

By posting this you did notice, so in effect it does accomplish what it is intended to do, notice the airplane.

I'd notice the airplane without the light on. But do you really think it would prevent a collision in broad daylight?

I think they are turned on day and night to keep the flows the same, as someone mentioned earlier. That makes sense. But I don't think it would prevent a collision during the day. If you can't see a 737 coming at you closer and closer during broad daylight, byu the time you'd notice the wing inspection light it'd be too late.

However, at night it very well may reduce the chance of a collision - after you miss the strobes and beacon flashing, and the steady nav lights, plus landing lights.

 

[ERfly]

How do you do your flight control check, i.e., before you start the taxi or what. On the 67 at least you must have to get the flaps out to check the OB aileron movement, so do you just wait for that to happen before moving the airplane? Just curious as I am looking for a better way and I agree that less is better after you start to taxi.

I'm not a CAL pilot, but I've ridden the jumpseat on the widebodies a few times. From what I recall, only the 737 does the Flight Control check after pushback. The other aircraft do it at the gate before pushback. Maybe the CAL guys can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[OffHot]

Actually, SWA also has a before takeoff checklist, which is about 5 additonal steps. Takes all of 15 seconds.

 

[SoCentralRain]

Two Beech products collided at the 90 degree instersection of two runways in Quincy, Illinois during takeoff.

Close, but not quite. The GLA -1900 was landing on RWY13. The King Air was attempting to takeoff on RWY 4. I'm sure that's what you meant to say.

SCR

 

[r1830]

Most Captains were I fly taxi to the gate with the wing inspection/ice lights on not so much for other airplanes but for vehicles. When we taxi in and out of our gate we have to cross the main tug/vehicle road. Its like a rush hour all the time. We have had several near collisions in the past few years, most of those have occured at night. But to ease the captains flow they operate them all the time.

 

[dispatchguy]

Has there ever been a collision with one aircraft overtaking another from the 5 or 7 oclock position?

USAir landing ontop of a Metro at LAX comes to mind...

He definitely did overtake the Metro!

 

[firstthird]

I think the wing inspection lights are also a good idea for takeoff because someone on short final to the runway would see then prior to you making the 90 degree turn for line up. I.E. the only lights that point sideways are a good thing to have on as you are taking the runway and are aligned perpendicular to anyone that might be landing on you.

 

[G4G5]

No taxi check, I like the idea but it doesn't seem practical.

When do you move the flaps? In the ramp area? With no Taxi check when does the check list call to check the setting? The line up check, on the runway, when cleared for T/O?

For CAL:
When departing Rome or any other European city, the clearance is not given out until you are taxing. When is it checked in the FMS and briefed? With no taxi check, is all this done from memory?

 

[firstthird]

at SWA, once we are pushed back, both engines started, and the tug is clear.

then, we move the flaps, do the control check, and run through the 5 items of the before taxi checklist. takes about 30 sec front to back. Still have ~4 items to do just before taking the runway (transponder, etc) that can't/shouldn't be done earlier, but it is a really nice cklist set up.

 

[SKYW Pilot]

Some Brasilia pilots at Skywest taxi around with the darned inspection lights on... even during the day!! Then they burn out and ground the aircraft. We can't fly in icing conditions at night with even one burned out inspection light. I use them for takeoff at night, but taxiing around with the darn things on is taking it a little too far... in my opinion. While on the subject of lights, I always crack up when I see a 747 taxiing around during the day with their taxi light on. "HOLY CRAP!!! I would have never seen that 747 in my way if that guy didn't have his taxi light on!"