Possible SWA T.A. pay numbers... Embrace the suck.

[HowardBorden]

A gross oversimplification from an obvious simpleton.

Ah yes, when you can't refute the facts put forth, move on to the next best thing.

 

[bluesideup1]

RSW pilots traded -800 pay, crew meals, Int'l, etc for the threats Gary made to keep the integration out of arbitration. Anyone involved knows this to be true but few seem willing to admit it.

Just to show you how clueless you are:

First the 800 was voted upon before the announcement of the purchase of airtran.

Crew Meals were brought up when flying a turn and we couldn't get off the aircraft for international flights.

The international flights didn't happen at SW until well after the vote for integration.

All three had absolutely nothing to do with the integration vote on airtran as those things either happened well before or well after the vote. Although it seems to you that everything has to do with the integration. Get over yourself we have bigger fish to fry.

How about this: Its done! Move on!

 

[-9Capt]

Just to show you how clueless you are:

First the 800 was voted upon before the announcement of the purchase of airtran.

Crew Meals were brought up when flying a turn and we couldn't get off the aircraft for international flights.

The international flights didn't happen at SW until well after the vote for integration.

All three had absolutely nothing to do with the integration vote on airtran as those things either happened well before or well after the vote. Although it seems to you that everything has to do with the integration. Get over yourself we have bigger fish to fry.

How about this: Its done! Move on!

You're either lying or you're stupid.

Go read SL6. It's on the SWAPA website. The very same agreement that talks about -800 pay and international flying mentions the AirTran integration. It's right there in black and white smart guy.

I'll be happy to post it for all to read if you prefer.

 

[-9Capt]

The ONLY folks that had the ability to keep the integration out of arbitration were the 83% of pilots that voted for the offer on the table.

So the threats by management of a "plan B" and an "alternate plan" had no influence on how the AirTran pilots voted? It didn't change the outcome. Is that what you're saying?

-----------------------------------------

By Ben Mutzabaugh, USA TODAY

Updated: 10/12/2011 9:55 PM

- UPDATED: 2:28 p.m. ET

Southwest may have an "alternate plan" for AirTran if pilots at the latter vote against a deal to combine seniority lists with their Southwest counterparts.

That's according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, where reporter Kelly Yamanouchi writes:

In an effort to encourage pilots to approve the deal, Southwest has raised the possibility of a Plan B: that AirTran may not fully integrate as planned into Southwest if the pilot proposal fails.

"If we receive a 'no' vote, it means that we cannot execute the original integration plan and we will have to reset," Southwest spokesman Paul Flaningan says in a written statement to the Journal-Constitution.

The newspaper writes the prospect of a Plan B "came up shortly after AirTran's pilots union leadership voted against an initial deal ? ."

In that situation, Southwest CEO Gary Kelly expressed disappointment that the tentative deal on seniority was never put to AirTran's union membership for a vote.

For now, Southwest says it's continuing to integrate AirTran's operations.

But things might look different if Southwest does eventually resort to the newly reported alternate plan.

In that scenario -- which at least one analyst suspects is a negotiating ploy -- Southwest would continue to operate subsidiary AirTran as a separate operation , a move that would still give it access to AirTran's fleet, Atlanta hub and its international routes

But the Journal-Constitution reports such a plan could also set the stage for a "slow dismantling" of AirTran, perhaps similar to how Southwest handled its acquisition of now-defunct Muse Air in the 1980s.

When asked specifically about that passage, Southwest spokeswoman Beth Harbin told Today in the Sky:

I know there has been a lot of speculation. It's natural, I guess, during a time when a potential agreement is introduced, people are reading their way through it, and making conclusions. The Muse Air acquisition was 30 years ago. It was an approach. Not the only approach. We believe Pilots today have a fair offer to consider and are optimistic they will approve it.

Bloomberg News also picks up on the story, writing "keeping AirTran flying on its own would run counter to the goal of folding the discount carrier into Southwest, the biggest low-fare airline."

"I''m sure that's not what management planned when they acquired AirTran," Hunter Keay, an analyst at Wolfe Trahan & Co. in New York, says to Bloomberg. "It probably is to some degree a negotiating tactic."

The Bloomberg report makes no mention any possible dismantling of AirTran. Referencing the same summary cited by the Journal-Constitution, Bloomberg quotes Southwest as saying simply "Plan B calls for AAI (AirTran) and SWA (Southwest) to remain separate and unintegrated."

As for the background of the AirTran pilots' seniority issue, the Journal-Constitution says some AirTran pilots believe going to arbitration could net them a better deal.

Others, however, appear to be frustrated -- as evidenced by a Tuesday move to recall three union leaders amid what the Journal-Constitution writes is "discontent over the union leadership decision to decline the first offer."

As for Southwest, spokeswoman Beth Harbin tells Bloomberg: "Our focus is going to be on getting the deal with the pilots done quickly because that really does set a good momentum for the rest of the integration."

 

[madjack]

-9....
What better outcome were u expecting/feel u deserved...DOH?? Just curious...

 

[redflyer65]

DOH from AirTran to SW? Yea, that wasn't going to work.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

That's a potential land mine in a rumored jetBlue merger. The company is only... what... 14 years old? Their most senior capt has 14 years seniority.

 

[PCL_128]

DOH from AirTran to SW? Yea, that wasn't going to work.

Agreed. Ratio by category and status would have been the arbitrated outcome.

 

[Flopgut]

I remember that letter. I wished the AirTran guys had doubled down, but respect that it was their decision and their reality. I don't know where AirTran belonged on an SLI per say, but we all know now how bad SWA needed them. AirTran has been absolutely crucial to SWA. Lesson learned from ATA, where they were only savvy enough to weasel market info on Chicago Midway. There was a lot more to learn there if SWA had been smart enough to receive it. AND could have lingered long enough without the SWA pilots' feelings getting hurt [not special].

 

[-9Capt]

DOH from AirTran to SW? Yea, that wasn't going to work.

That's not something we'll likely agree upon. That was a decision for an arbitrator to make, except your side decided to be Scumbbags about it. Congrats, you won. Enjoy the seniority and capt seats.

 

[HowardBorden]

So the threats by management of a "plan B" and an "alternate plan" had no influence on how the AirTran pilots voted? It didn't change the outcome. Is that what you're saying?

-----------------------------------------

In that scenario -- which at least one analyst suspects is a negotiating ploy -- Southwest would continue to operate subsidiary AirTran as a separate operation.

"I''m sure that's not what management planned when they acquired AirTran," Hunter Keay, an analyst at Wolfe Trahan & Co. in New York, says to Bloomberg. "It probably is to some degree a negotiating tactic."

I bolded the relevant portions of that article for you. The reason analysts were calling this a negotiating ploy is because of the SWAPA scope clause which is industry leading........perhaps you've heard of it? Section One is pretty unambiguous when it comes to operating another alter ego airline.

A. SCOPE
This Agreement covers all revenue and miscellaneous flying, performed with aircraft owned or leased by the Company, or which displays Company markings, including all flying in and for the service of the Company and its affiliates. All flying covered by this Agreement shall be performed by pilots whose names appear on the Southwest Airlines Master Pilot Seniority List

 

[Clyde Frog]

The reason analysts were calling this a negotiating ploy is because of the SWAPA scope clause which is industry leading........

Umm, yeeeaah...riiiight...ahhh...that's probably it.

 

[bluesideup1]

Agreed. Ratio by category and status would have been the arbitrated outcome.

That is not what happened with the two other groups that went to arbitration. They got a worse deal than what the Airtran pilots got. So please tell my why you think it would have been different than the Mechanics and Flight Attendants who actually went to arbitration vs your imaginary results based on nothing more than the voices in your head?

 

[PCL_128]

That is not what happened with the two other groups that went to arbitration. They got a worse deal than what the Airtran pilots got. So please tell my why you think it would have been different than the Mechanics and Flight Attendants who actually went to arbitration vs your imaginary results based on nothing more than the voices in your head?

The other two groups were not pilots. Pilot seniority integrations have an established precedent. Ratio by category and status with only minor tweaks. I have absolutely zero doubt that that's what would have happened in our case, as well.

 

[HowardBorden]

Umm, yeeeaah...riiiight...ahhh...that's probably it.

Wow, another scathing retort obliterating the supposition put forth with finely crafted evidentiary findings.

 

[-9Capt]

Wow, another scathing retort obliterating the supposition put forth with finely crafted evidentiary findings.

Wow, look at all them big college words..you must be real smart.

 

[-9Capt]

The other two groups were not pilots. Pilot seniority integrations have an established precedent. Ratio by category and status with only minor tweaks. I have absolutely zero doubt that that's what would have happened in our case, as well.

Correct.

Pilot integration is different.

Always has been.

There are factors involved like mandatory retirement age and CA vs FO that other employee groups don't have to consider. A flight attendant is a flight attendant, a mechanic is a mechanic. A pilot is an FO or a CA with a known retirement date. See? Different.

 

[HowardBorden]

Wow, look at all them big college words..you must be real smart.

Just answer the question is all I ask. You posted an article about Southwest threatening a "plan-B". In that very article two industry analysts described it as a "ploy" and a "negotiating tactic". Do you believe SWA could have carried through with the threat of separate operation discussed in the article without a major violation of SWAPA scope?

 

[madjack]

-9, So better than DOH...closer to relative...well that would have been an exceptional deal for the AAI guys, especially all the CPs...RSW not so much...so in the world of arbitrated airline mergers it's better to be on the smaller, less profitable and ultimately purchased airline side...-9, you wanted an arbitrated deal because you believed it would net u a higher number on the SWA list...and well for the guys who left AAI for SW and for all the RSW too bad...should have left SW for a smaller, all round crappier airline gig and then hope to get purchased by a bigger, more profitable airline, especially if you can be a CP at the smaller, crappier airline...got it...

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

A flight attendant is a flight attendant...

But what if Johnny is now Caitlyn?