Possible SWA T.A. pay numbers... Embrace the suck.

[Flopgut]

You're a smart guy. It's not "if".

Get out in front of this. Give GK some version of what he wants. Or don't, I really don't care. But please spare us all the set-something-free, or blankety-blank-airwar crap later

 

[HowardBorden]

SWA can't do what it wants to do without some change or without help. Period. Other countries will not surrender it to you like was once done with PanAm.

Like usual you are uninformed and wrong. The changes in Mexico are already a done deal and go into effect January 1, 2016.

"A newly revised air services agreement between Mexico and the US that eases limits on the number of airlines allowed to operate on routes between the two countries is a welcome development for airlines operating in both regions. But it is particularly interesting for Mexico?s airlines given that their penetration in the transborder space still pales in comparison to US airlines operating between the two countries.
But in the meantime, Mexico?s airlines are looking to build on their current transborder expansion now that city pair restrictions are being eased."
http://centreforaviation.com/analys...y-await-a-new-bilateral-to-take-effect-199310

SWA will expand from HOU and FLL to their hearts content in Mexico and will face very little competition from Mexican carriers at their departure airports. It really is a genius plan that will work very well if the pilots stand strong and keep the current section one language forbidding any codeshare agreements. SWA has also faced little problem attaining other Latin American destination authorizations.

I suspect Flop's consternation comes from the fact that SWA will be greatly encroaching on Uniteds market share.

United is the main victim.
Among the top three U.S. carriers, American Airlines has by far the largest presence in Latin America (including the Caribbean) due to its its hub in Miami. On a combined basis, American and US Airways deployed 40.1 billion available seat miles to Latin America last year. By contrast, No. 2 United Continental had just 20.
By contrast, United Continental operates just half a dozen daily flights to Brazil and southern South America. Most of its Latin American capacity is devoted to Central America, northern South America, and the Caribbean -- which makes sense given that Houston is its main Latin American gateway.
United waged an intense (unsuccessful) lobbying campaign in 2012, urging Houston to maintain its ban on international flights at Hobby Airport. This effort spoke volumes about United's fear of a Southwest Airlines international expansion in Houston.
By 2017 or 2018, Southwest could operate 30 or more international flights per day from Hobby Airport. Since United Continental faces competition on just a few of its Latin American routes from Houston today, the new Southwest service will break a number of monopolies, which are presumably quite profitable.
http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...est-airlines-goes-international-who-will.aspx

 

[Just thinking]

".If we stand strong"..........
Biggest joke is the propaganda machine that we have to fight to get our message out to the masses. Faceless entity of admin or super moderator sending messages or Q&A from "leadership". GK laughing at the fools that played right into his hand. If this so called union leadership truly wants it constituents to vote no and send a resounding message to GK they had better provide ample space on the union website to post the other side of the story. The uproar over the RJ s flying for Airtan was an uprising of almost biblical proportion. Now we get the union selling the section 1 relief for nothing. Joke of "near international" definition. Red eye override slashed to 3% vice 15. ONE percent bonus for 15%ROIC and a less than one percent of an increase to the company match to 10% (but only if you pay in 10% first).... Profit sharing only goes into 401s....... Crap upon crap.

 

[Tripower455]

".If we stand strong"..........
Biggest joke is the propaganda machine that we have to fight to get our message out to the masses. Faceless entity of admin or super moderator sending messages or Q&A from "leadership". GK laughing at the fools that played right into his hand. If this so called union leadership truly wants it constituents to vote no and send a resounding message to GK they had better provide ample space on the union website to post the other side of the story. The uproar over the RJ s flying for Airtan was an uprising of almost biblical proportion. Now we get the union selling the section 1 relief for nothing. Joke of "near international" definition. Red eye override slashed to 3% vice 15. ONE percent bonus for 15%ROIC and a less than one percent of an increase to the company match to 10% (but only if you pay in 10% first).... Profit sharing only goes into 401s....... Crap upon crap.

And our group will lap it up like a kid eating a chocolate sundae. Think of what you could buy with that awesome bonus!

 

[HowardBorden]

".If we stand strong"..........
Biggest joke is the propaganda machine that we have to fight to get our message out to the masses. Faceless entity of admin or super moderator sending messages or Q&A from "leadership". GK laughing at the fools that played right into his hand. If this so called union leadership truly wants it constituents to vote no and send a resounding message to GK they had better provide ample space on the union website to post the other side of the story.

You better hope we stand strong against the company and union spin machine. Also, if you think we are in some way unique or special that we are going to get sold a bill of goods from the union, we are not. The union will "sell" the product they produced, it is inevitable. It is up to the membership to engage in critical analysis and decide if the union product meets our goals or not. Many of the BOD dissenting opinions have already put out no vote recommendations to their constituents. If you are expecting a union roadshow to highlight the inadequacies of this mess, you will be waiting in vain. Ask the Delta boys how strong the union sell job was on the TA they turned down. The Delta membership analyzed the product and said not even close, we will need to do the same. Hopefully we will learn something from the F.A.'s and stand strong with a similar resounding NO!

 

[27 driver]

I don't see how anyone could vote yes for this. Please folks. Take a good hard look at this POS TA. No, don't read past section 1. It doesn't get any better. Concessionary in every section for a less than a COLA raise. Management gets everything it wants and gets to kick us in the nuts just for grins and giggles. It's right there in the contract. Every section has a kick in the nuts for us. But on a brighter note some of the sections have circuit breakers for kicks in the nuts. The language is loose on the circuit breakers so you will still get kicked in the nuts but you will be able to grieve it.

 

[Crash Pad]

Last 3 captains all yes votes. Unabashed, thought it was a solid deal.

The pass margin will be stunning. I've waited my entire career to vote against scope but it won't matter. The best part will be hearing GK announce his pride at reaching a deal that helps pilots.

Hope I'm wrong.

That said I think it should come out for a vote. I can't speak for 8000 pilots. Maybe it's a good deal for most of them. I'd like to know that before I grab a sign and picket like a fool for the 100 guys on the forum.

 

[Ty Webb]

Last 3 captains all yes votes. Unabashed, thought it was a solid deal.

Well, then, if it's going to be every man for himself...see ya in the morning. You can babysit the jet, no, were not carrying that, and you can get your own f'in garbage bag, Skippy. ?

 

[Lear70]

Well, then, if it's going to be every man for himself...see ya in the morning. You can babysit the jet, no, were not carrying that, and you can get your own f'in garbage bag, Skippy. ?

Damn skippy.

It's not over yet...

 

[Tripower455]

Last 3 captains all yes votes. Unabashed, thought it was a solid deal.

The pass margin will be stunning. I've waited my entire career to vote against scope but it won't matter. The best part will be hearing GK announce his pride at reaching a deal that helps pilots.

Hope I'm wrong.

That said I think it should come out for a vote. I can't speak for 8000 pilots. Maybe it's a good deal for most of them. I'd like to know that before I grab a sign and picket like a fool for the 100 guys on the forum.

It's definitely not a good deal for most of us. Heck, the only ones that it might be a good deal for are the folks retiring shortly after getting their bonus, and even that is not as good as if we'd gotten actual retro.

For anyone with any time left here that gets stuck working under this contract, it's beyond a bad deal.

But.

A bad deal has never stopped us from shooting ourselves in the foot before, and that goes for FOs as well as Capts. I am always amazed at our willingness to accept deals that not only don't benefit us, but HARM us!

Vote YES!

 

[hotWOODs]

http://i.imgur.com/9w03B3X.jpg

 

[Lost]

Section 1 erosion, mou about an alternative bidding system (pbs anyone?), no thanks. I just don't know how anyone in their right mind could vote yes for this.

 

[General Lee]

Well, if there is any consolation, it's doubtful any other airline will take your West Texas flying........



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Lear70]

Well, if there is any consolation, it's doubtful any other airline will take your West Texas flying........



Bye Bye---General Lee

Zing! Pretty funny, actually.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Yeah he's a hoot.

 

[Lear70]

Yeah he's a hoot.

I just laugh at the General's posts... not worth taking them seriously.

 

[outerlimits]

Well, if there is any consolation, it's doubtful any other airline will take your West Texas flying........



Bye Bye---General Lee

Delta found someone to take it

 

[General Lee]

I just laugh at the General's posts... not worth taking them seriously.

I'm glad you get to laugh a bit. If I had to fly to those dusty towns a lot, I'd probably be a bit more vocal. But, I don't, and that's FANTASTIC.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Big airplane - big suitcase.

 

[tankerhead]

I'm glad you get to laugh a bit. If I had to fly to those dusty towns a lot, I'd probably be a bit more vocal. But, I don't, and that's FANTASTIC.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Dude, I appreciate your recent support with our potential scope issue. But really, the only dudes that frequent Lubbock, Midland, and Amarillo are the sh!tkickers from Houston and Dallas, and they love that sh!t. They wear cowboy boots, for Christ's sake. The rest of us, not so much. (Dusty TX towns or boots). Again, thanks for encouraging the fight against GK. That f?️C?er has ruined this airline.

 

[General Lee]

Dude, I appreciate your recent support with our potential scope issue. But really, the only dudes that frequent Lubbock, Midland, and Amarillo are the sh!tkickers from Houston and Dallas, and they love that sh!t. They wear cowboy boots, for Christ's sake. The rest of us, not so much. (Dusty TX towns or boots). Again, thanks for encouraging the fight against GK. That f?️C?er has ruined this airline.

I hear you, and I hope you guys turn down that TA and don't allow the scope giveaway. Hopefully DL, FDX, and SWA will all get better TAs the second time around. Good luck.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Just thinking]

Scope is crap section..... SWA will be the operators in the U.S. For foreign carriers. Had 15% override when they did not want red eyes..... Now when they are going to implement them the override goes to three percent. Bonus does not go toward earnings for the year for 401k measly match from the company. They have not even taken into consideration all of the training evolutions they will incur when they segment the pilot group into classic, NG, MAX, international divisions...... What happens if I get displaced to another base and my seniority holds a different category...... How many training events in a year could you potentially have? Too bad they can't figure out how to properly train. RJ operators have been operating international for decades and SWA can't figure it out. Hell, they had an FAA approved program when the bought AirTran and they threw it away and wasted years reinventing the wheel. Wasted millions on ETOPS. Class II navigation dumped after spending millions. What you really are seeing is the level of incompetence from management because they have developed an airline that plans in a vacuum. Crappy TA and SWAPA is delinquent in their duties in presenting to the pilots for a vote.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

That 3% for red eyes is on top of all rigs. The 15% isn't so ADG ends up being more. FWIW

 

[Lear70]

That 3% for red eyes is on top of all rigs. The 15% isn't so ADG ends up being more. FWIW

I wrote 3 pairings in about 15 minutes to see what the change would do, based on trips I've flown this month with a red-eye built in somewhere (there's no language to prevent flipping your circadian rhythm during a pairing by the way).

In two of them (legal pairings per the proposed CBA and FAR 117), the old way paid more, one by a little over 1 TFP the second by almost 2 TFP (that adds up when they're running a dozen red-eyes every day for two crews).

The reason they pay more in those cases is because the 15% override on a long red-eye leg in the CURRENT CBA was calculated on a DAILY basis, then ADDED to the total trip credits from the other days.

They took that out (credit added on a daily basis, the highest of the daily computations then compared to the rest of the rigs) in 4.I.6.

So the 3% override in the new T.A. in 4.FF.1 is applied on a leg credit, but if it's the only leg in a duty period (or your tail-end deadhead doesn't crest the min day rigs), and the other days in your pairing are below min days, the trip rigs override the calculation since the days aren't cumulative anymore and you get a min trip rig for the entire trip.

A couple guys are putting a web page together that has all this info and more (not me, busy with BoD stuff now). When it's ready to be released to the public I'll post the link up.

 

[Tripower455]

A couple guys are putting a web page together that has all this info and more (not me, busy with BoD stuff now). When it's ready to be released to the public I'll post the link up.

BOD stuff?

Awesome!

I'm popping some popcorn. Can't wait to see you stir up the Klub 19ers!

 

[Nindiri]

They went absolutely crazy over the section 1 analysis, so you know it was on target. Good work!!

 

[Tripower455]

They went absolutely crazy over the section 1 analysis, so you know it was on target. Good work!!

Yup....

Amazing how some of the major kool aid stirrers came out of the woodwork to sell the TA in the last few days.

When was the last time Carl K. (the author of the "Executive Summary" fairy tale and main TA salesman last time around) was even on the forum? He had not posted since May, and all of a sudden, since 9/19, he has a 100 posts or so defending the TA.

Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

 

[chris69]

It was pretty telling seeing the smartest man in the room have no initial retort to the excellent analysis on Sect. 1 that Lear put out. Would love to be a fly on the wall at the next BoD meeting when the W/M team out of LAS and the rest of the BoD "no" majority confront the few coolies and PJ. My only concern is the length of time this whole process is taking. I felt we were a solid 4 or 5 - 1 in the first few days after the TA details came out but I already sense alot of the soft "no's" wavering with the coolies chipping away and creating more doubt and sapping resolve. A percent of attrition per day over the next 40 days and this thing barely fails (bad) or passes (worse). The Chiefs hitting the lounges this weekend should show everyone how much the company seems desperate for this deal to pass. Along with the previous JB tix announcement and the details in Sect. 1 does anyone not think that we are buying JB? As someone posted wrt to bag tags on the Prune, lets "flush this windsor down the jackson."

 

[outerlimits]

BOD stuff?

Awesome!

I'm popping some popcorn. Can't wait to see you stir up the Klub 19ers!

I am Thinking Lear should drink for free with you guys . He is doing all the heavy lifting for the rank and file at SWA.

Better yet SWAPA/SWA should just pay him to keep out of it.

 

[shootr]

In a lounge today with an assistant chief hob nobbing. No sales job. He stood no chance against the unanimous no's in the room, some were very po'd. He mostly just listened. Tried to interject a few times but almost shouted down. Refreshing.