Please Read DCI Carriers

Ridgeback

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I have been putting alot of thought into this idea and need your help.

1. To see if others think this is a good idea

2. To see how to get this done

THe idea here is a way to prevent whipsawing DCI against DCI. Delta and Northwest managment created all of us in one way or another to keep our contracts cheap. I'm tired of seeing my fellow pilots furloughed and XJ only to have seen 9E grow over the years. I'm not bashing against 9E but if history repeats itself someone will be growing while 9e is shrinking.

After reading about the vote Delta had to no longer represent Compass Pilots with their MEC it's clear to me that the "majors" pilots have no genuine interest in "taking" it back. It seems to me that ALPA has dropped the ball big time with this opprotunity.

SO here's the idea. Why don't the ALPA MEC's of Mesaba, Pinnacle, Compass, Comair, ASA, even Mesa...if they are alpa...sorry. Also include the other ALPA DCI carries and create a "SUPER" MEC. Have the MEC chairman from each carrier apoint a representive to said councl, call it council one. From this point forwar this councl has the duty and responsibility to negoiate contracts and side letters. Imagine, if Delta came to Mesaba and wanted a "new" rate to undercut any one of the other DCI's to fly that shiny new jet. It would be impossible, they couldn't whipsaw because our new councl wouldn't allow. This could just be the start, Contract negioations, a single universal pay rate, single work rules, and perhaps even a single senority list!!

I'm serious I really think this could be the path to prevent whipsawing

Please discuss and improve on this idea

Perhaps this could get some traction and turn into something!!
 

altimaklr

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Sadly, it's not up to the pilots union who does what flights, or how many hours per month Delta allocates. Unions can only negotiate the terms and conditions pilots receive when they perform their work.

Each company competes on the basis of how cheap they can operate versus how well the can meet certain metrics.

Delta will chose the cheapest/best performing company based on what demand they have.

End of story.
 

Tarzan

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will never work. . . ever
Just like he said... ALPA certainly bears some responsibility.

ASA contract: there is pressure from national to hold out further to better their contract. Finally, the TA that is voted on is basically what was on the table a year before the TA was announced. The big peice that was announced before the TA was the signing bonus. No telling how long it had been there. Overall a good contract but national wanted to up the ante on contract standards.

Flash forward...
Pinnacle TA: What a POS. Talk about becoming the new Mesa standard bearer.

The problem boils down to human nature. People tend to only see what is right in front of them and look at ways to fix it now or to get that quick upgrade now. Most have forgotten that they may end up and at a small lift provider for the duration of their career. I am just as guilty for saying that I am only worried about me. In the end, ALPA and my fellow pilots don't pay my bills. So I have to worry about me and do what I believe will be best to keep me at work and making money. I have no other choice right now. Once ALPA decided to behave as a real union, I will continue to operate like this. I will do my best to contribute and make inroads in that direction.

Sadly, my and your efforts will likely be for nothing so I will do everything in my power to have ALPA National pound sand until they look for new ways to stop this game. I have to believe the primary reason National does care is that the guys that carry the real power are mainline and need their companies to stay solvent to keep their paychecks intact. They view any move by the regional's to consolidate as a notch from the their power, prestige and pay.

The only thing that help move things in this direction is a union for contracted providers that works closely with National for the important stuff like safety but serves the needs and concerns of pilots who's jobs ride on the whims of mainline. As you stated earlier, the legacy pilots are out for themselves...... just we should be.
 

CptMurf

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will never work. . . ever
It could, but only if we created a new union....call it RALPA. It would only take 1 person from each carrier and a TON of money to start. Then each carrier votes out ALPA and votes in RALPA. Done deal, one list, minimum contract for every fleet type out there. Now....who's got a TON of money?
 

spudskier

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Sadly, it's not up to the pilots union who does what flights, or how many hours per month Delta allocates. Unions can only negotiate the terms and conditions pilots receive when they perform their work.

Each company competes on the basis of how cheap they can operate versus how well the can meet certain metrics.

Delta will chose the cheapest/best performing company based on what demand they have.

End of story.

It's an interesting idea, and it could work. Yes the union only works for change regarding the work-rules of it's pilots, but if EVERY regional carrier has the same work rules, same costs (despite some work groups being ultra-senior and others very young - which in and of itself is a problem) then Delta would theoretically be less likely to whipsaw. Lot of effort for a theoretical reward...

it would be nice if all carriers were the same in terms of cost structure but it's never gonna happen. Too many variables (some with union, some without, senior/junior pilot groups, size of groups, location etc...)

Things are going to change drastically too... in 2012 when the 65ers start retiring it's gonna be interesting to see which regionals planned ahead in terms of staffing and which will hit hard times due to lack of pilots and lose flying. New legislation is eventually going to take effect with reduced duty-day maxes and alter cost structures and staffing... the recession will eventually be over and people will start traveling more than ever before (and delta will still have reduced seating capacity for years before realizing they should have more seats in all their markets)

Majors (the Legacy carriers at least) are lumbering dinosaurs with that are VERY near-sighted and will eventually stumble. Regionals have to roll with the punches and be twice as agile as the lumbering oafs they work for so they don't get crushed under them. ONE union across the board could help but I don't see it happening.
 

N813CA

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Comair goes into contract negotiations next year. I am sure they will get screwed more.
 

marycon

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I have been putting alot of thought into this idea and need your help.

1. To see if others think this is a good idea

2. To see how to get this done

THe idea here is a way to prevent whipsawing DCI against DCI. Delta and Northwest managment created all of us in one way or another to keep our contracts cheap. I'm tired of seeing my fellow pilots furloughed and XJ only to have seen 9E grow over the years. I'm not bashing against 9E but if history repeats itself someone will be growing while 9e is shrinking.

After reading about the vote Delta had to no longer represent Compass Pilots with their MEC it's clear to me that the "majors" pilots have no genuine interest in "taking" it back. It seems to me that ALPA has dropped the ball big time with this opprotunity.

SO here's the idea. Why don't the ALPA MEC's of Mesaba, Pinnacle, Compass, Comair, ASA, even Mesa...if they are alpa...sorry. Also include the other ALPA DCI carries and create a "SUPER" MEC. Have the MEC chairman from each carrier apoint a representive to said councl, call it council one. From this point forwar this councl has the duty and responsibility to negoiate contracts and side letters. Imagine, if Delta came to Mesaba and wanted a "new" rate to undercut any one of the other DCI's to fly that shiny new jet. It would be impossible, they couldn't whipsaw because our new councl wouldn't allow. This could just be the start, Contract negioations, a single universal pay rate, single work rules, and perhaps even a single senority list!!

I'm serious I really think this could be the path to prevent whipsawing

Please discuss and improve on this idea

Perhaps this could get some traction and turn into something!!
They are and have been working on it for a while now. Moak has been working with the DCI union carriers to set a min standard for what will be needed to be a DCI carrier.

Also at the national level is The Fee for Departure group headed by Tom Wychor that has been working with all of the regional affiliates to standardize themselves to prevent whipsawing etc.

Both of these things will unfortunately take time and will be a slow process.
 

callowayhd

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didn't the air canada connectors do this in 2001 and create Jazz? there were like 3-5 connector for air canada and they were also whipsawed, they said no and created one airline and it seems to have worked for them
 

sweptback

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Just like he said... ALPA certainly bears some responsibility.

ASA contract: there is pressure from national to hold out further to better their contract. Finally, the TA that is voted on is basically what was on the table a year before the TA was announced. The big peice that was announced before the TA was the signing bonus. No telling how long it had been there. Overall a good contract but national wanted to up the ante on contract standards.
You are incorrect, check your facts.
 

titans10

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THe idea here is a way to prevent whipsawing DCI against DCI. Delta and Northwest managment created all of us in one way or another to keep our contracts cheap. I'm tired of seeing my fellow pilots furloughed and XJ only to have seen 9E grow over the years. I'm not bashing against 9E but if history repeats itself someone will be growing while 9e is shrinking



welcome to the world of aviation. where have you been. look at whats been happening for years at the majors
 

Full of LUV

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Well...future airline managment....

the recession will eventually be over and people will start traveling more than ever before (and delta will still have reduced seating capacity for years before realizing they should have more seats in all their markets)

Majors (the Legacy carriers at least) are lumbering dinosaurs with that are VERY near-sighted and will eventually stumble. Regionals have to roll with the punches and be twice as agile as the lumbering oafs they work for so they don't get crushed under them. ONE union across the board could help but I don't see it happening.
Boy, you have it all figured out.... The "lumbering dinosaurs" sell all the tickets, deal with all the customers, provide a world of destinations and HIRE A TWO-BIT CONTRACTOR TO GET THEM FROM PODUNK IOWA TO A MAJOR CITY. Because of your "extremely cheap labor" and ability to reset that cost every few years, the "lumbering giants" have set up a system where they can pit several contractors against eachother as a mechanism to keep the costs as low as possible (ie labor costs). Your whole operation probably has less people involved than just the flight ops department at Delta.

If it wern't for the "lumbering dinosaurs" many of your jobs would be gone, poof. I know a lot of regional pilots think of their companies as just a minor "major" minus all the "legacy" costs.
 

JoeMerchant

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JoeMerchant

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That's not exactly the most reliable source because he wasn't involved at the endgame.
I thought you said you weren't involved in negotiations? Your either an insider, or you are relying on what other people told you.....Which is it?
 

sweptback

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I thought you said you weren't involved in negotiations? Your either an insider, or you are relying on what other people told you.....Which is it?
Doesn't change the validity of my point...
 

Tarzan

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You are incorrect, check your facts.
Well Sir,
Unless you were there as well, you may wish to retract your accusations. I've talked with enough guys who were inside the process to know there were some moves that could have been done without. Simply because you heard from someone and I heard from someone does not give give you free rein to sanctimoniously accuse me of having my facts wrong. Possibly it is you that either has the facts wrong or is actively covering tails at the MEC. I'd be interested to see what your view is what transpired. Regardless of what you say, from the guys I've spoken with, I strongly believe national has a huge amount of influence at the local level when it came to contract negotiations and our guys sucked it right up in the name of national jobs. Not exactly the, "We are ALPA" that the cheerleaders like to throw out there when faced when disagreement from within the ranks.

I am particularly looking forward to the books being cracked open over the last couple of years. Kudos to FR on that motion. I have a feeling some folks are going to be on the line after that goes down.
 
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