Please help a fellow union brother not SCAB.

[Diesel]

Afternoon all.

Our company is going through some interesting times where we might at one point strike. Unfortunately this will be the first time a lot of our members have dealt with a union much less the notion that they might have to strike. We are under attack for our pay, benefits, schedule and scope.

This thread we are trying to help a fellow union brother understand why being a SCAB is one of the lowest things a pilot can do. He doesn't have any union experience and is naive feeling that SCABS should not be shunned for the rest of their lives.

I ask that those that have dealt with scabs, strikes and other such union issues please help our union brother see the light. Who knows maybe we can save him from making one of the worst mistakes of his career when the decision comes.

Thanks in advance.

D

 

[Flopgut]

Is this Netjets?

 

[Diesel]

Yup. But major airline pilots have more experience with union strikes and helping new union members understand.

 

[ByeUSAir]

A scab by Jack London

Scabs have been called many things by many people during the course of labor history but Jack London?s description of the scab, ?written with barbed wire on sandpaper,? easily dwarfs all others.

?After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a scab.

A scab is a two-legged animal with a cork-screw soul, a water-logged brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the Devil shuts the gates of Hell to keep him out.

No man has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas Iscariot was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not.

Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas Iscariot sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commission in the British Army. The modern strikebreaker sells his birthright, his country, his wife, his children and his fellow men for an unfulfilled promise from his employer, trust or corporation.

Esau was a traitor to himself: Judas Iscariot was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a strikebreaker is a traitor to his God, his country, his wife, his family and his class.?

 

[ultrarunner]

If you really want to convert your potential scab, have a union boss in Detroit, from the UAW, send one of their boys to have a face-to-face chat with him. I'll tell ya, it's likely to be quite a bit different than a white-collar union 'person' giving him a phone call asking for support....and probably more effective....

In the end, white-collar Union support is way behind the times. Support your membership 100%, and you'll get the same in return....

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Does he enjoy the protection and provisions of the CBA?
Will he be advantaged by any gains made as a result of a new CBA?
Can he fly the entire schedule single handedly?

The pragmatist will arrive at the conclusion that the scab is then using others sacrifice to unjustly enrich himself - whilst not appreciably impacting the outcome of the strike (at least based on what little I know about NJA). Or worse yet, if scabs break a strike, what will be left? I guarantee the pay structure and work rules won't remain in tact. Do you really want to say, "Yeah, I really helped Uncle Warren screw the pilots and lower the bar?" Is it really worth a couple weeks quid?

So, unless he's thick, he should just do the right thing and toe the line.

Whether, our "free marketeer" as he has branded himself would shun a scab or not is irrelevant - he would quickly become persona non grata. Once the strike is amicably resolved, as they often quickly are, he then becomes a stain on the carpet. Even management becomes annoyed by scabs, they're an additional complication to operations - with the inevitable whining about "they're not nice to me" and other crew conflicts.

 

[Diesel]

I would appreciate you clicking the link and posting in the thread so he can see what those around him talk about. He sees those that give scabs hard times as thugs.

 

[HowardBorden]

You're not a scab until you cross. A lot of folks like to blow hot air just to get a rise out of people and spool them up. In case you haven't heard, they're called trolls. Leave it alone and let the guy blow all the smoke he wants. I'm sure everyone has let it be known how scabs are viewed in this industry.

In the end if you do in fact strike and he does cross, then use the energy you are wasting here to make sure the scab label never leaves him wherever he turns for employment. Trying to talk sense to a troll is useless.

 

[Diesel]

Any friends of mine who mistreats me if I cross are friends I never needed, and shame on them. I will find out who my true friends are, I guess, and am fine with that. I would never mistreat anyone who strikes, even though I would strongly oppose them doing so, for jeapardizing my employer's survival and imperilling my job.. Funny how you hooligans don't even see the irony.

Sad to see his thought process but even more sad is he isn't trolling. He's an active line pilot who truly is a believer.

 

[HowardBorden]

Sad to see his thought process but even more sad is he isn't trolling. He's an active line pilot who truly is a believer.

If he doesn't get it, there is absolutely nothing you can do to help him.

 

[Flopgut]

I thought Netjets was a closed shop/Teamsters? And Ohio is not Right-to-work... That would pretty much seal it. What's changed Diesel?

 

[Diesel]

I thought Netjets was a closed shop/Teamsters? And Ohio is not Right-to-work... That would pretty much seal it. What's changed Diesel?

Closed shop Njasap local union.

Ohio is right to work I believe.

Some pilots just don't want to help out lifting.

 

[Flopgut]

Closed shop=Membership reqd. Check your bylaws, ought to be able to toss a strikebreaker out of the union. Not a member=not working.

Quick search looks like Ohio is a battlefront state for right to work. Not sure about recent months, but in the not so distant past it looks like you are not "right to work". Teamsters union would have kept everybody up to date on this, and you need to find out. Statements alone can get a worker thrown from the union. Run this issue to a ground wire and find out. It would correct your peers behavior real quick, and change mgts behavior too.

*gutshotdraw gave this bulletpoint in another thread:

"Prohibit our union from respecting the primary picket line of a fellow union;"

This is something NJA mgt wants? Not even sure that's legal?! If they're asking for it contractually then current state law must be unclear. Or it's being contested over whether or not Ohio is RTW

 

[gutshotdraw]

NetJets is actually an Agency shop. A pilot does not HAVE to join the union but will still pay fees equal to dues in any case. However, they will be unable to participate in elections or hold office. The only way to move a "fee payer" off the property is if they refuse to pay their fees.

@Flopgut Our current CBA guarantees our right to honor the primary picket line of ANY union. Airline, hotel, taxicab, etc. Our management presented us with their "Four Pillars" proposal several months ago. One of those demanded pillars was to specifically PROHIBIT the pilots from honoring a primary picket line. To my knowledge, there is no prohibition of that concept in the NLRA or the RLA. Of course, that is an absolute non-starter with our negotiating committee.

 

[Flopgut]

That's something that a lot of contracts carry. Seems like a stretch on their part to go after it.*


Was it not a traditional closed shop when it was Teamsters?

*Youre a small shop in a hugely important labor state. You might be tip of the spear for the RTW movement and not know it. Or if you aren't, interject yourselves into the debate. Get Cleveland Rail labor leadership involved? Get those hardasses that work in the mills advice. How about asking the Teamsters for help?

 

[Flash]

You should contact Spirit people, those are the ones all of us owe for drawing a line and not crossing it! Also, in todays day and age, any scabbers would be called out and names known within seconds of their poor decision to cross a line, IIRC, the 2 guys that flew a charter for spirit had their names on line before they even landed. In the old days a type written list would make it's way around a few months later, not so much anymore.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Even way back when Executive Jet was first organized under Teamsters Local 284 more than 25 years ago, it was an agency shop. In the mid-2000's, a new local IBT 1108 was created. Then, in the late 2000's, IBT was decertifed in favor of an in-house known as Netjets Association of Shared Aircraft Pilots or NJASAP. In late 2010, the previously non-union division of NetJets (NJI Inc. aka NetJets International aka the Gulfstreams) was integrated into NJASAP.

We recently exercised our rights to respect a primary picket line when we refused to stay in a crew hotel in SJC that was being struck by the hotel engineers. Clearly, respect one respect all but the protection is primarily in place to refuse trips if our FA's go out. They have been negotiating for FOUR YEARS and are no closer to an agreement.

 

[skypine69]

scabs suck.

 

[get2flyin]

In spite of the fact I grew up in a hardcore union family (non-aviation) I didn't totally grasp the depth of what it meant to be a scab until I heard this on NPR. It's about European coal strikes, but it resonates true regardless of what unionized group you work with.

http://www.npr.org/2014/12/19/371879356/no-son-of-mine

 

[PCL_128]

Was it not a traditional closed shop when it was Teamsters?

Closed shops are illegal in America. Agency shop is the best you can do.

 

[eskimopilot]

Perhaps you could show him/her the scablist. It's easy to find on line. It's in PDF format.
Show them where their name would fall and point out that this list is kept up to date. If they think their actions won't have repercussions long term then perhaps the names of the 1932 Century Airlines Scabs might give them pause.

 

[Diesel]

G4dude we welcome for you to post here.

 

[G4dude]

Here I am. Take your best shot.

I am the miscreant Diesel started this thread for. I was raised and nurtured in a non union household, worked my entire career in non union shops, and became a member when our company merged. After conversations on this site with union supporters, I have moved a little in their (your) direction. Third party unions like IBT are corrupt, but I now believe an in house union can be an efficient way to deal with a recalcitrant management team. I want good pay and conditions JUST AS MUCH as the union supporters do. Where we diverge is the maltreatment of someone who continues to go to work after you guys have decided to NOT go to work. Even if I honor the picket line, I would NEVER mistreat a scab, not for a second. I would never mistreat anyone for their decision to strike if I don't agree with you, but you would hound me for the rest of my career if I cross. THAT is what I detest about unions, that otherwise decent people think this execrable behavior is perfectly within the bounds of normalcy. By the way, I do NOT plan to scab. I will probably quit if the union goes on strike, which still provides the union with leverage by depriving the company of my services. And making the union happy by decreasing the number of less than enthusiastic members. I am not an ogre, nor am I selfish. There are many pilots here who agree with me, but they don't have the stomach, understandably, to endure the slings and arrows of vitriolic conversations on this site with the likes of Diesel, bless his hoary little rabble rousing heart. He is not a bad guy, but he is certainly single minded and passionate, without a great deal of ability to convince in a civilized manner.

 

[G4dude]

Perhaps you could show him/her the scablist. It's easy to find on line. It's in PDF format.
Show them where their name would fall and point out that this list is kept up to date. If they think their actions won't have repercussions long term then perhaps the names of the 1932 Century Airlines Scabs might give them pause.

I know perfectly well what the ramifications of scabbing are. The ramifications are shameful and coercive and uncivilized. Why can't we have unions WITHOUT the vituperative and vicious treatment of other members who, BTW, pay dues too? I submit any course of action which requires pressuring others to act in concert with you is not really a good course of action.

I really enjoyed using "vituperative." Its been a long time since I got to use it.

 

[G4dude]

In spite of the fact I grew up in a hardcore union family (non-aviation) I didn't totally grasp the depth of what it meant to be a scab until I heard this on NPR. It's about European coal strikes, but it resonates true regardless of what unionized group you work with.

http://www.npr.org/2014/12/19/371879356/no-son-of-mine

What a powerful piece!! Thanks so much for posting it.

 

[Flopgut]

I am the miscreant Diesel started this thread for. I was raised and nurtured in a non union household, worked my entire career in non union shops, and became a member when our company merged. After conversations on this site with union supporters, I have moved a little in their (your) direction. Third party unions like IBT are corrupt, but I now believe an in house union can be an efficient way to deal with a recalcitrant management team. I want good pay and conditions JUST AS MUCH as the union supporters do. Where we diverge is the maltreatment of someone who continues to go to work after you guys have decided to NOT go to work. Even if I honor the picket line, I would NEVER mistreat a scab, not for a second. I would never mistreat anyone for their decision to strike if I don't agree with you, but you would hound me for the rest of my career if I cross. THAT is what I detest about unions, that otherwise decent people think this execrable behavior is perfectly within the bounds of normalcy. By the way, I do NOT plan to scab. I will probably quit if the union goes on strike, which still provides the union with leverage by depriving the company of my services. And making the union happy by decreasing the number of less than enthusiastic members. I am not an ogre, nor am I selfish. There are many pilots here who agree with me, but they don't have the stomach, understandably, to endure the slings and arrows of vitriolic conversations on this site with the likes of Diesel, bless his hoary little rabble rousing heart. He is not a bad guy, but he is certainly single minded and passionate, without a great deal of ability to convince in a civilized manner.

Sounds like you're not too far off base. Although I'm not a big fan of what you're saying, I think you ought to just bite your tongue. You're obviously a cerebral sort, which works against you in a union. If you were super cerebral you'd understand pointing out the obvious flaws with a union. (Esp during negotiations) is absolutely foolish. You're empowering mgts case against you and your coworkers. Almost everything is in your favor, mgt knows they can't hire replacement workers that can operate the company safely in your legal absence [possible strike]. Biff and Muffy sitting in the back of the royal barge aren't going to put up with heavy handed mgt BS when they're paying what they are. This isn't the time for you to pontificate on all the obvious pitfalls that come with a union. Your behavior equates to the equal opposite of union negatives. And just as detrimental to the goal.

 

[G4dude]

Sounds like you're not too far off base. Although I'm not a big fan of what you're saying, I think you ought to just bite your tongue. You're obviously a cerebral sort, which works against you in a union. If you were super cerebral you'd understand pointing out the obvious flaws with a union. (Esp during negotiations) is absolutely foolish. You're empowering mgts case against you and your coworkers. Almost everything is in your favor, mgt knows they can't hire replacement workers that can operate the company safely in your legal absence [possible strike]. Biff and Muffy sitting in the back of the royal barge aren't going to put up with heavy handed mgt BS when they're paying what they are. This isn't the time for you to pontificate on all the obvious pitfalls that come with a union. Your behavior equates to the equal opposite of union negatives. And just as detrimental to the goal.

Thanks for your reasonable post. I agree with much of what you say, except my behavior doesn't include intimidation and lifelong mistreatment of others, therefore our behaviors are not equivalent..

 

[Flopgut]

I said you're the "equal opposite", and just as detrimental to the goal. You want a good contract, right?

One more observation: Kuddos to you for considering instead of striking, just getting another job. Lots of good pilots did just that. And it's a very mature way to approach the situation. You want to really shake mgt up? That's how you do it IMO. Not a harsh critique of obvious problems with a union that make everyone uncomfortable.

 

[G4dude]

I said you're the "equal opposite", and just as detrimental to the goal. You want a good contract, right?

One more observation: Kuddos to you for considering instead of striking, just getting another job. Lots of good pilots did just that. And it's a very mature way to approach the situation. You want to really shake mgt up? That's how you do it IMO. Not a harsh critique of obvious problems with a union that make everyone uncomfortable.

I gotcha. And remember, my problem with unions is the coercion of fellow members. The goals I agree with. The energeticnegotiations I agree with. The group power when communicating with management can be a good thing sometimes. But coercion of dues paying members? Not so good. If the union is so good, why does it have to coerce its membership? My answer is, it shouldn't have to.

 

[Flopgut]

I gotcha. And remember, my problem with unions is the coercion of fellow members. The goals I agree with. The energeticnegotiations I agree with. The group power when communicating with management can be a good thing sometimes. But coercion of dues paying members? Not so good. If the union is so good, why does it have to coerce its membership? My answer is, it shouldn't have to.

I agree with that. I'm not the believer in "social enforcement" that I used to be.