Plane Reality

[Bryan D]

I don't believe labor unions are the answer. Labor unions have outlived their effectiveness. See: NAFTA. I don't believe goverment regulation of the airlines is the answer. The goverment is a terrible buisness partner. See: TVA.
The problem as I see it is supply and demand. It's a buyers market.

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[DrewBlows]

I don't believe labor unions are the answer. Labor unions have outlived their effectiveness. See: NAFTA. I don't believe goverment regulation of the airlines is the answer. The goverment is a terrible buisness partner. See: TVA.
The problem as I see it is supply and demand. It's a buyers market.

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How exactly do you propose that we could negotiate? Without a union, we have absolutely no bargaining power, we would be forced to accept whatever the company decided to give us, which would be precisely the smallest amount that they could get away with. And with no shortage of hungry pilots on the street waiting to take our jobs, we are expendable.

Fast forward a few years Bryan D has been the perfect airline pilot, he's always on time and has never scratched an airplane, so he thinks that maybe it's time for a raise. He and the rest of his pilot group voted ALPA off the property over a year ago because it had outlived it's effectiveness. In the mean time, the companies profits have started to slip so they have have instituted pay cuts across the board, and have gotten rid of any work rules not federally mandated in the name of efficiency. A few pilots have attempted to get ALPA back on property but they have been fired. Despite this Bryan D knows that he has been the perfect employee and decides to ask the boss for a raise.

Bryan D: Excuse me sir, do you have a minute?

CEO X: Sure son, what can I do for you?

Bryan D: Well sir, the thing is I just got married and have a baby on the way...

CEO X: That's great son, I'm a busy man can I help you?

Bryan D: Of course sir, well...I was just thinking that I've been a loyal employee at your company for three years now and thought that...maybe you could find it in your heart to give me a raise. Like I was saying I have a baby on the way and am having trouble paying the bills on my current salery.

CEO X: Son, times are tough...you know we all have to pitch in if we want the company to make it.

Bryan D: Um...didn't the company make record profits last quarter sir.

CEO X: Yes we did, but we didn't do it by just throwing money away on employees.

Bryan D: Well sir, I really could use the money...

CEO X: We all could son. Now you have a nice day.

Bryan D: Sir, I must insist...

CEO X: Oh, you insist...I see...well in that case I guess I'll just have to hire one of the 3,000 pilots who sent us a resume last month to take your position, I bet that they won't insist. You wouldn't want me to do that would you?

Bryan D: Of course not sir, never mind that I brought it up. I think you are doing an outstanding job, keep it up.

CEO X: Is that all?

Bryan D: Yes sir, sorry I bothered you...thank you for the job.

CEO X: That's what I thought.

 

[PilotSkyBlue]

Agreed government regulation of the industry is not the best thing, no doubt it will lead to corruption amongst politicans and companies. Perhaps setting a mandatory minimum regulated wage isn't the best tree to bark up either, it was just a passing thought. My logic in that idea is that companies would all, collectively have to meet a similar payroll which would give them no other option but to raise fare prices (I'd Hope). It is the same free trade principle that helps an industry grow that is hurting the aviation industry. Companies are trying to stimulate demand by driving down prices, while there is an excess of supply (i.e. pilots). Everyone wants to work their way into the industry so bad that some are even willing to pay for it. The aviation industry is like a mirage in the desert, it looks great from far away and you run your ass off trying to get to it only to find yourself groping some sand.

 

[cynic]

The REAL problem is that its just to easy to get an ATP or commercial license. Don't kid yourself, a monkey can fly a regional jet.

If you want the pay to go up, drain the supply. If you want to drain the supply make it harder to get an ATP. Require a master's degree, up the minimum hours; add a height weight ratio... You get the idea. And please spare the diatribe on how you don't need a degree to fly an airplane.

If you don’t believe monkeys can fly airplane just take a look here:

http://www.princessmonkey.com/monkeys/flying.html

 

[Pacific]

Was in an interview last week and at the end of the day those of us left standing were offered a job and a class date. When asked if we had any questions one of the guys (who has a current flying job) raised his hand with his nose turning brown and asked and I quote "is there anything I can do in the mean time... like work here in the building...I mean I can mow lawns or whatever..." I almost puked. We as professional pilots must have some pride in what we do for a living. It's great to be excited about a new position but please let's not act like they just did us some huge favor when offered a position, we've earned it right??. This guy would have taken the job for 65% of the pay and half the benefits and management knew it. It's hard to negotiate anything better for a pilot group when those attitudes are so evident.

 

[FN FAL]

Formerly, pilots would pay their dues at 20k a year jobs so that they could start at 90k with the majors...

Were you being facetious? I don't know of any major that started pilots out at 90K...if they did, then the majority that started out at 29-32K are getting bent over royally.

 

[FlyChicaga]

So much poorly aimed frustration about the current situation at the airlines. Why must we continue to be at each others throats? It's not the new hires right now at the regionals. It's partly everyones fault here for this trend. Particularly, management. They are running these companies into the ground, setting ticket prices at terribly low rates with fuel prices skyrocketing through the roof. We are all--even the low-paid regional folks--funding these airlines in bankrupcy with paycuts and reduced benefits.

All this talk of SJS: Give me a break! The pilots at the majors are folding like a house of cards, giving up pensions, pay, benefits, left and right. Why? Do they have SJS too, hoping to keep their jobs in this downturn? Why don't they just quit? It's because we all have so much invested in this career, we are hoping that short-term downs will turn around to long-term ups. Problem is, these short-term downs are stretching out longer and longer than expected.

The fact is, there have only been so many good paying jobs in aviation. Few and far between. There have always been more crap-paying jobs at the supplemental carriers, charters, corporate outfits, and smaller airlines. Yeah, there are your big legacies, and your Fortune 100 companies, but other than that, there haven't been many good-paying jobs. Problem is, all these me-me-me, now-now-now Generation Xers want these good paying jobs they were promised in the Flying Magazine ads for the past 10 years RIGHT NOW. We didn't have a strong sense of reality about life as a pilot, because the powers that be spoonfed us massive amounts of bullshit for years. So now we are "stuck" at the regionals, and are scapegoats.

Why are we scapegoats? Because we are flying routes that used to be mainline with regional aircraft. Whose fault is that? 1: Management. They set what aircraft fly what routes. 2: The pilots at the majors, trying to scope out the RJs instead of assimilating them into their companies. 3: The regional pilots, for continuing to think it's OK to fly these routes for BS pay... even taking concessions to continue doing so! We're also an easy target because of our position in the industry: The new guys. The majors are fortunate that they only must compete with each other. The regionals not only must compete in the market for their current brand, but they also must fight for feed. So regional management can pit pilot groups against one another. We can see it here, day after day. So much back and forth "my airline is better than yours" bullshit. We should be sticking together, but management has created the perfect inter-company rift.

Whatever it is, times are changing. Pilots now are moving from skilled stick-and-rudder operators with calm nerves and a relaxed demenor to Gen X Nintendo-type computer operators, always on edge and hyped up on Starbucks. It's easy to get on a computer now and complain about the industry, then take terms like "SJS" and "PFT" and throw them around like insults on the line to feel tough. If we'd just shut up for a minute, and start working together, then ALPA might be somewhat effective. It sure won't be effective--and you all will keep complaining about our union--without unity between the pilot groups. Especially at the regionals. It dumbfounds me to see people on here HAPPY at the demise of another airline. It's only a short time before you are next...

Sorry that you weren't at a major in three or four years after starting at a regional by 21. Sorry you aren't making $100,000 yet, by age 26. Guess what: That's how it was always going to work. You weren't going to get to UPS or FedEx or SWA by 26! You weren't guaranteed that quick EMB-170 upgrade. I've even fallen victim to the "woe is me" attitude every so often, wondering how long I'll be "stuck" at the regionals. You know what? I don't care. Just keep increasing pay and benefits, and start working to ensure some job security. We won't get either of those things fighting each other like this. So all you'll have is crappy pay, no benefits, and ever-decreasing job security while trying to fight for those major airline jobs that don't exist.

Seriously, how many of you really still believe that when you get 1000 PIC that SWA, FedEx, and JetBlue will be knocking at your door? Is that why you are taking these paycuts and only making $55,000 as an RJ Captain? So you can get to a major faster than your brethren at such-and-such other regional? Give me a break. Reality check: You'll be here for a while.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Wow, that's pretty cool. The board automatically changes bullshit to bullshoot.

 

[aspire]

Rke44 is 100% correct. Whether we realize it or not we have absolutely no bargining power when it comes to our jobs. That's why we are in the situation that we're in. Since we can't take our pay and benefits with us there is no incentive to leave. Any pilot with a decent amount of senority is not leaving his company, period. After all, who wants to take a pay cut AND start at the bottom of another airline. It's better to just take a pay cut, still have the senority and suffer. Employees in other industries and jobs start calling the head hunters and bailing ship the moment they're told to expect a pay cut and a loss of benefits. Yes, there are exceptions. The above does not apply to the "worker-class" who also have little employee bargining power and it does not apply during recessions. What is the solution to the senority system when we all do the exactly same job? Unfortunately, no one has an answer so far.

 

[Bryan D]

Rke44 is 100% correct. Whether we realize it or not we have absolutely no bargining power when it comes to our jobs. What is the solution to the senority system when we all do the exactly same job?

You know..maybe the union and the seniority system is the problem. I think you hit the nail on the head when comparing pilot jobs to other professions. Maybe since the airlines are reinventing themselves, or restructuring as they call it, maybe it's time the labor force reinvented themselves. If we keep on doing what we've always been doing we will keep on getting what we've always got..pay cuts, furloughs and lousy treatment. The labor union has no teeth and the seniority system has the pilots hog tied. Now that we've identified the problem all we have to do is find a solution. Who's going to bargain for us? We'll be at the mercy of the big bad airlines without ALPA. If ALPA is doing such a good job why are we all pssing and moaning? Maybe it's time to think outside the box.

 

[Lear70]

The labor union has no teeth and the seniority system has the pilots hog tied. Now that we've identified the problem all we have to do is find a solution. Who's going to bargain for us? We'll be at the mercy of the big bad airlines without ALPA. If ALPA is doing such a good job why are we all pssing and moaning? Maybe it's time to think outside the box.

You actually touched on the problem and I don't think you realized it.

ALPA has no teeth because of the Railway Labor Act.

If you get someone else to negotiate for you, you're still under the RLA and THEY will have no teeth as well.

That's the problem - the system itself isn't true "capitalism", because artificial constraints such as the bankruptcy laws and loopholes and the RLA will keep the labor / management / consumer relationship all fu*ked up.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Lots of good comments here. Fact is that you can get legally qualified to fly a jet for a 121 air carrier at age 23 with 1500 hours and be legally qualified at age 17 (or whatever the minimum age is to hold a commercial licence now) to be a first officer with 250 hours. Without a union the older pilots would never get much of a pay raise since they can be easily replaced with someone who meets the legal requirements.
While I'm not a big fan of unions I don't see how there would be much of a career for a pilot without one. A first year Captain and a 30 year Captain both do the same job and are legally qualified. The difference is one costs more. Which do you think airline management prefers?