Plane Reality

[FN FAL]

Formerly, pilots would pay their dues at 20k a year jobs so that they could start at 90k with the majors...

Were you being facetious? I don't know of any major that started pilots out at 90K...if they did, then the majority that started out at 29-32K are getting bent over royally.

 

[FlyChicaga]

So much poorly aimed frustration about the current situation at the airlines. Why must we continue to be at each others throats? It's not the new hires right now at the regionals. It's partly everyones fault here for this trend. Particularly, management. They are running these companies into the ground, setting ticket prices at terribly low rates with fuel prices skyrocketing through the roof. We are all--even the low-paid regional folks--funding these airlines in bankrupcy with paycuts and reduced benefits.

All this talk of SJS: Give me a break! The pilots at the majors are folding like a house of cards, giving up pensions, pay, benefits, left and right. Why? Do they have SJS too, hoping to keep their jobs in this downturn? Why don't they just quit? It's because we all have so much invested in this career, we are hoping that short-term downs will turn around to long-term ups. Problem is, these short-term downs are stretching out longer and longer than expected.

The fact is, there have only been so many good paying jobs in aviation. Few and far between. There have always been more crap-paying jobs at the supplemental carriers, charters, corporate outfits, and smaller airlines. Yeah, there are your big legacies, and your Fortune 100 companies, but other than that, there haven't been many good-paying jobs. Problem is, all these me-me-me, now-now-now Generation Xers want these good paying jobs they were promised in the Flying Magazine ads for the past 10 years RIGHT NOW. We didn't have a strong sense of reality about life as a pilot, because the powers that be spoonfed us massive amounts of bullshit for years. So now we are "stuck" at the regionals, and are scapegoats.

Why are we scapegoats? Because we are flying routes that used to be mainline with regional aircraft. Whose fault is that? 1: Management. They set what aircraft fly what routes. 2: The pilots at the majors, trying to scope out the RJs instead of assimilating them into their companies. 3: The regional pilots, for continuing to think it's OK to fly these routes for BS pay... even taking concessions to continue doing so! We're also an easy target because of our position in the industry: The new guys. The majors are fortunate that they only must compete with each other. The regionals not only must compete in the market for their current brand, but they also must fight for feed. So regional management can pit pilot groups against one another. We can see it here, day after day. So much back and forth "my airline is better than yours" bullshit. We should be sticking together, but management has created the perfect inter-company rift.

Whatever it is, times are changing. Pilots now are moving from skilled stick-and-rudder operators with calm nerves and a relaxed demenor to Gen X Nintendo-type computer operators, always on edge and hyped up on Starbucks. It's easy to get on a computer now and complain about the industry, then take terms like "SJS" and "PFT" and throw them around like insults on the line to feel tough. If we'd just shut up for a minute, and start working together, then ALPA might be somewhat effective. It sure won't be effective--and you all will keep complaining about our union--without unity between the pilot groups. Especially at the regionals. It dumbfounds me to see people on here HAPPY at the demise of another airline. It's only a short time before you are next...

Sorry that you weren't at a major in three or four years after starting at a regional by 21. Sorry you aren't making $100,000 yet, by age 26. Guess what: That's how it was always going to work. You weren't going to get to UPS or FedEx or SWA by 26! You weren't guaranteed that quick EMB-170 upgrade. I've even fallen victim to the "woe is me" attitude every so often, wondering how long I'll be "stuck" at the regionals. You know what? I don't care. Just keep increasing pay and benefits, and start working to ensure some job security. We won't get either of those things fighting each other like this. So all you'll have is crappy pay, no benefits, and ever-decreasing job security while trying to fight for those major airline jobs that don't exist.

Seriously, how many of you really still believe that when you get 1000 PIC that SWA, FedEx, and JetBlue will be knocking at your door? Is that why you are taking these paycuts and only making $55,000 as an RJ Captain? So you can get to a major faster than your brethren at such-and-such other regional? Give me a break. Reality check: You'll be here for a while.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Wow, that's pretty cool. The board automatically changes bullshit to bullshoot.

 

[aspire]

Rke44 is 100% correct. Whether we realize it or not we have absolutely no bargining power when it comes to our jobs. That's why we are in the situation that we're in. Since we can't take our pay and benefits with us there is no incentive to leave. Any pilot with a decent amount of senority is not leaving his company, period. After all, who wants to take a pay cut AND start at the bottom of another airline. It's better to just take a pay cut, still have the senority and suffer. Employees in other industries and jobs start calling the head hunters and bailing ship the moment they're told to expect a pay cut and a loss of benefits. Yes, there are exceptions. The above does not apply to the "worker-class" who also have little employee bargining power and it does not apply during recessions. What is the solution to the senority system when we all do the exactly same job? Unfortunately, no one has an answer so far.

 

[Bryan D]

Rke44 is 100% correct. Whether we realize it or not we have absolutely no bargining power when it comes to our jobs. What is the solution to the senority system when we all do the exactly same job?

You know..maybe the union and the seniority system is the problem. I think you hit the nail on the head when comparing pilot jobs to other professions. Maybe since the airlines are reinventing themselves, or restructuring as they call it, maybe it's time the labor force reinvented themselves. If we keep on doing what we've always been doing we will keep on getting what we've always got..pay cuts, furloughs and lousy treatment. The labor union has no teeth and the seniority system has the pilots hog tied. Now that we've identified the problem all we have to do is find a solution. Who's going to bargain for us? We'll be at the mercy of the big bad airlines without ALPA. If ALPA is doing such a good job why are we all pssing and moaning? Maybe it's time to think outside the box.

 

[Lear70]

The labor union has no teeth and the seniority system has the pilots hog tied. Now that we've identified the problem all we have to do is find a solution. Who's going to bargain for us? We'll be at the mercy of the big bad airlines without ALPA. If ALPA is doing such a good job why are we all pssing and moaning? Maybe it's time to think outside the box.

You actually touched on the problem and I don't think you realized it.

ALPA has no teeth because of the Railway Labor Act.

If you get someone else to negotiate for you, you're still under the RLA and THEY will have no teeth as well.

That's the problem - the system itself isn't true "capitalism", because artificial constraints such as the bankruptcy laws and loopholes and the RLA will keep the labor / management / consumer relationship all fu*ked up.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Lots of good comments here. Fact is that you can get legally qualified to fly a jet for a 121 air carrier at age 23 with 1500 hours and be legally qualified at age 17 (or whatever the minimum age is to hold a commercial licence now) to be a first officer with 250 hours. Without a union the older pilots would never get much of a pay raise since they can be easily replaced with someone who meets the legal requirements.
While I'm not a big fan of unions I don't see how there would be much of a career for a pilot without one. A first year Captain and a 30 year Captain both do the same job and are legally qualified. The difference is one costs more. Which do you think airline management prefers?