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partypilot1

AIN'T LIFE GRAND!
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Posts
226
It is clear that there are many problems with the current aviation situation in United States. One thing seems to be clear, pay in indirectly proportional to pilot jobs available. Currently anyone with 500tt can get a job flying with some regional airline, this means that companies are hurting for warm bodies in the right seat. Pay seems to be at an all time low across the board as well. Capitalism shows that when an industry is hurting for a skilled worker, the need for that worker increases as well as the pay, nurses for example. Our current aviation industry is not reflecting this trend. Capitalism cyclic trend does not seem to be turning in the pilots favor, it seems to be stalled in a bad way. You can get a flying job anywhere but pay sucks everywhere, generally (excluding the favorites). I believe there must be a way to fix this situation. In keeping Capitalism tradition we can’t just limit the number of commercial licenses but could the FAA increase the 121 and 135 minimums? It seems like a quick fix but it just might shift the cyclic trend back on track. With fewer pilots available the airline would have to pay more for them, in turn some or many operators will not be able to afford to pay more for their pilots thus taking them out of the picture. Airline ticket prices will increase but it will be even across the board.



Another thought would be to set up some sort of board or panel of people that would administer a standardized test, after completing your commercial license, into your concentration of commercial flying. (Airlines, Corporate, Charter, and so on) It seems the lawyers BAR exam is set up similar to what I am thinking of.



I am just searching for possible answers to fix our pilot problems in the United States. I hope to generate some positive responses pros and cons and leave out the pilot bashing. I am sorry if the grammar and spelling sucks, it is late and I’m tired.
 
The real forces driving down the wages and QOL at airline jobs are the same ones there have always been. First off, there is the superficial cool factor of being able to pilot an aircraft with great skill to exotic locations where, once arrived, you proceed to lounge on the beach for 36-48 hours while partying with the scorching hot locals and having sex with all the supermodel FA's. Most of us who have been in the industry for some time realize this couldn't be farther from the truth. That urban myth keeps the incoming supply line of pilots wrapped around the corner block. While I admit that flying an airplane is better than wasting a life in some corporate cube any day of the week, the real answer lies elsewhere. I believe the problem exists with the industry standard seniority system ultimately. Think about it. In what other industry would employees accept huge (20, 30, 40%, ???) salary cuts every 10-15 years and still stick around? None come to mind. Very few captains and career FO's are willing to forfeit decades of seniority in order to start over at the bottom of a pay scale at some other carrier. Why would they? Their hand is forced. In the average office job if an individual was informed that they would be receiving a large reduction in pay and days off the job hunt would be begin the next day. That person would be able to take his/her experience to the next employer and be compensated appropriately. That is not the case in our industry. The airlines use this to their advantage everytime the market hits a bump in the road. The law of supply and demand dictates that when a bad weather season affects the national lettuce supply, for example, the price goes up and cost is passed to the consumer. As we all know, that seems to be the exact opposite in our line of work. Instead of the industry raising ticket prices to offset increased costs it relies on employee groups to bail them out through concessions because they know their employees' hands are tied by the seniority system. If we could, as a whole, change the airlines' ability to have us over the seniority barrel the scene would change dramatically. Am I talking about a national seniority system? I don't know. I've given much thought to the issue while watching the seniority systems of various companies ebb and flow leaving good hardworking employees out on the street after a stellar career. It just seems that the successful career of most people is based on education, work ethic, and experience. For us in the airlines, job security and career prosperity is dependent on getting hired at the right time by the right company. In other words, it is almost completely out of our hands. Something needs to change. The supply of pilots entranced with flying for a living is a constant so the changes need to take place within the system. Raising the minimums for commercial or ATP licenses has been cited, but I think that is only a temporary fix because after a few years the CFIs and 135 guys will meet the requirements regardless. The real fix would be for a pilot to be able to carry his/her experience to a new airline and receive comparable pay and benefits of the old employer. The airlines would hate to see this happen because it empowers the employee so much by giving him/her a choice. I don't have all the answers, but it is something that needs to happen if the trend is to be reversed.
 
rke44 said:
I don't have all the answers, but it is something that needs to happen if the trend is to be reversed.

It is a very simple issue. Pilots are willing to work for beans. They may whine (alot), and scream, and threaten to strike, but when push comes to shove they fly. People are bending over backwards to get any pilot job at any salary whether it be a regional job, a major job (is there such a thing anymore?), or a coporate job.

To sum up my theory: pilots are payed beans, because they're willing to work for beans. When pilots stop working for beans, they will be payed better.




NB
 
rke44 said:
The real forces driving down the wages and QOL at airline jobs are the same ones there have always been. First off, there is the superficial cool factor of being able to pilot an aircraft with great skill to exotic locations where, once arrived, you proceed to lounge on the beach for 36-48 hours while partying with the scorching hot locals and having sex with all the supermodel FA's. Most of us who have been in the industry for some time realize this couldn't be farther from the truth. That urban myth keeps the incoming supply line of pilots wrapped around the corner block. While I admit that flying an airplane is better than wasting a life in some corporate cube any day of the week, the real answer lies elsewhere. I believe the problem exists with the industry standard seniority system ultimately. Think about it. In what other industry would employees accept huge (20, 30, 40%, ???) salary cuts every 10-15 years and still stick around? None come to mind. Very few captains and career FO's are willing to forfeit decades of seniority in order to start over at the bottom of a pay scale at some other carrier. Why would they? Their hand is forced. In the average office job if an individual was informed that they would be receiving a large reduction in pay and days off the job hunt would be begin the next day. That person would be able to take his/her experience to the next employer and be compensated appropriately. That is not the case in our industry. The airlines use this to their advantage everytime the market hits a bump in the road. The law of supply and demand dictates that when a bad weather season affects the national lettuce supply, for example, the price goes up and cost is passed to the consumer. As we all know, that seems to be the exact opposite in our line of work. Instead of the industry raising ticket prices to offset increased costs it relies on employee groups to bail them out through concessions because they know their employees' hands are tied by the seniority system. If we could, as a whole, change the airlines' ability to have us over the seniority barrel the scene would change dramatically. Am I talking about a national seniority system? I don't know. I've given much thought to the issue while watching the seniority systems of various companies ebb and flow leaving good hardworking employees out on the street after a stellar career. It just seems that the successful career of most people is based on education, work ethic, and experience. For us in the airlines, job security and career prosperity is dependent on getting hired at the right time by the right company. In other words, it is almost completely out of our hands. Something needs to change. The supply of pilots entranced with flying for a living is a constant so the changes need to take place within the system. Raising the minimums for commercial or ATP licenses has been cited, but I think that is only a temporary fix because after a few years the CFIs and 135 guys will meet the requirements regardless. The real fix would be for a pilot to be able to carry his/her experience to a new airline and receive comparable pay and benefits of the old employer. The airlines would hate to see this happen because it empowers the employee so much by giving him/her a choice. I don't have all the answers, but it is something that needs to happen if the trend is to be reversed.


Good post, but it was harder than chit to read becuase it was one big mega-paragraph.
 
nicely done

rke44 said:
The real forces driving down the wages and QOL at airline jobs are the same ones there have always been. First off, there is the superficial cool factor of being able to pilot an aircraft with great skill to exotic locations where, once arrived, you proceed to lounge on the beach for 36-48 hours while partying with the scorching hot locals and having sex with all the supermodel FA's. Most of us who have been in the industry for some time realize this couldn't be farther from the truth. That urban myth keeps the incoming supply line of pilots wrapped around the corner block. While I admit that flying an airplane is better than wasting a life in some corporate cube any day of the week, the real answer lies elsewhere. I believe the problem exists with the industry standard seniority system ultimately. Think about it. In what other industry would employees accept huge (20, 30, 40%, ???) salary cuts every 10-15 years and still stick around? None come to mind. Very few captains and career FO's are willing to forfeit decades of seniority in order to start over at the bottom of a pay scale at some other carrier. Why would they? Their hand is forced. In the average office job if an individual was informed that they would be receiving a large reduction in pay and days off the job hunt would be begin the next day. That person would be able to take his/her experience to the next employer and be compensated appropriately. That is not the case in our industry. The airlines use this to their advantage everytime the market hits a bump in the road. The law of supply and demand dictates that when a bad weather season affects the national lettuce supply, for example, the price goes up and cost is passed to the consumer. As we all know, that seems to be the exact opposite in our line of work. Instead of the industry raising ticket prices to offset increased costs it relies on employee groups to bail them out through concessions because they know their employees' hands are tied by the seniority system. If we could, as a whole, change the airlines' ability to have us over the seniority barrel the scene would change dramatically. Am I talking about a national seniority system? I don't know. I've given much thought to the issue while watching the seniority systems of various companies ebb and flow leaving good hardworking employees out on the street after a stellar career. It just seems that the successful career of most people is based on education, work ethic, and experience. For us in the airlines, job security and career prosperity is dependent on getting hired at the right time by the right company. In other words, it is almost completely out of our hands. Something needs to change. The supply of pilots entranced with flying for a living is a constant so the changes need to take place within the system. Raising the minimums for commercial or ATP licenses has been cited, but I think that is only a temporary fix because after a few years the CFIs and 135 guys will meet the requirements regardless. The real fix would be for a pilot to be able to carry his/her experience to a new airline and receive comparable pay and benefits of the old employer. The airlines would hate to see this happen because it empowers the employee so much by giving him/her a choice. I don't have all the answers, but it is something that needs to happen if the trend is to be reversed.

Nicely done. I couldnt agree more. We can still be unionized and have a national pay scale. My neighbor is a plumber and he is a union member. When he started out he got paid so much regardless of where he worked or who he knew, etc... Then after so many years he was able to move to a new level of pay after taking an exam. I think he called the levels apprentice, journeyman, master. The idea is that he can go work for any crew and recieve the pay that his experience and longevity entitle him to. As far as keeping people motivated to do a great job in a situation where everyone is treated the same will be taken care of by our friendly FAA.
 
rke44 said:
Am I talking about a national seniority system? I don't know. I've given much thought to the issue while watching the seniority systems of various companies ebb and flow leaving good hardworking employees out on the street after a stellar career.

There is a system of pay that would work in our given situation, only I shudder to think how it could be implemented into the airlines. Aside from the fact that it comes from the Government. Entry level college degree positions are placed into a pay scale, let's call it G6 ( I don't know what the actual designators are ). 6 being the 6th pay rate. 1-5 would be reserved for H.S. or GED workers. As experience and position improves the applicant moves up to higher pay rates eventually topping out at G16 after X number of years of service. The actual pay rates don't very company to company ( i.e. FBI to CIA ) A G16 gets the same pay at both companies. Thus if a Guppy captain were to be furloughed from company ABC and apply to company XYZ they could apply at their previous pay rate for a similar a/c.
There are several problems with this process in and of itself, let alone implementing it into the airlines with different a/c types and contracts. However, the idea works and would help to solve some of the problem associated with being released from an airline after many years of faithful service.
I'd love to hear your thoughts/feedback on this.
 
Nookybooky: To sum up my theory: pilots are payed beans, because they're willing to work for beans. When pilots stop in working for beans, they will be payed better.



Step back a moment and take a hard look at why pilots within the airline industry are willing to do so. I'm not talking about flight instructing or flying banners or some other stepping stone job, but the destination career.

I already gave you what I believe to be the real reason, but you failed to grasp it. The reason they're willing to work for decreasing amounts of beans is that they are scared to death (as they should be) of the company going out of business because it would mean that all of the time invested in the company was for nothing. They will be relegated to flying reserve on narrow bodies on the backside of the clock out of BFE at some new carrier. At the said new carrier that individual has a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting back to the previous QOL due to their back being against the wall of mandatory retirement. Now I know the standard rebuttal to this is that there are enough people beating down the door to work at the airlines to replace every living soul on the seniority list. This fact is true and nothing would be able to change it in my utopia, but the airlines' ability to use this against us would. They would not be able to muscle us because each pilot would have the choice to jump ship and accept comparable benefits and pay at the competing company. A universally recognized pay scale based on years of service, experience, and education would be the equivalent of us all working for the same company, but just for different departments. As Mysteryofflight pointed out implementation of this would be very difficult because those that have it good would only have something to lose, but they do not represent the majority of the pilot groups of the nation. The largest part of us would sacrifice a little in the short term in order to gain security in the long term. Now I know that most of us like to be optimists when evaluating the future of our employer, but history should be our guide. Do you think the pilots of Eastern, Pan Am, and Braniff ever thought that there job security was in question? Do you? You should and therefore be in favor of changing the market conditions. I know I am in doubt as I watch other professionals with less than half the required skills and qualifications in other fields have rock solid futures before them.
 
rke44 said:
Nookybooky: To sum up my theory: pilots are payed beans, because they're willing to work for beans. When pilots stop in working for beans, they will be payed better.
rke44 said:
Step back a moment and take a hard look at why pilots within the airline industry are willing to do so. I'm not talking about flight instructing or flying banners or some other stepping stone job, but the destination career.




The sad fact of the matter is that the “destination career” is in just as bad of a downward spiral as the “stepping stone jobs.” Formerly, pilots would pay their dues at 20k a year jobs so that they could start at 90k with the majors and retire making 200k+. Now pilots pay their dues at 20k a year jobs so they can get a chance at a career where they might top out just above six figures after a decade or two on the job.



rke44 said:
I already gave you what I believe to be the real reason, but you failed to grasp it. The reason they're willing to work for decreasing amounts of beans is that they are scared to death (as they should be) of the company going out of business because it would mean that all of the time invested in the company was for nothing. They will be relegated to flying reserve on narrow bodies on the backside of the clock out of BFE at some new carrier. At the said new carrier that individual has a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting back to the previous QOL due to their back being against the wall of mandatory retirement. Now I know the standard rebuttal to this is that there are enough people beating down the door to work at the airlines to replace every living soul on the seniority list. This fact is true and nothing would be able to change it in my utopia, but the airlines' ability to use this against us would. They would not be able to muscle us because each pilot would have the choice to jump ship and accept comparable benefits and pay at the competing company. A universally recognized pay scale based on years of service, experience, and education would be the equivalent of us all working for the same company, but just for different departments. As Mysteryofflight pointed out implementation of this would be very difficult because those that have it good would only have something to lose, but they do not represent the majority of the pilot groups of the nation. The largest part of us would sacrifice a little in the short term in order to gain security in the long term. Now I know that most of us like to be optimists when evaluating the future of our employer, but history should be our guide. Do you think the pilots of Eastern, Pan Am, and Braniff ever thought that there job security was in question? Do you? You should and therefore be in favor of changing the market conditions. I know I am in doubt as I watch other professionals with less than half the required skills and qualifications in other fields have rock solid futures before them.




No, I did not fail to grasp your argument. I actually agree with you. However, the bottom line is that pilots make up a labor market just like any other trade or profession. Labor is a commodity, and as long as there are more people willing and able to work than there are jobs available, then wages will continue to fall. Unions serve as market obstructions in much the same way that tariffs and quotas affect trade, and price floors and ceilings affect housing, and they often have their intended effect. However, those effects rarely last indefinitely and unfortunately the market almost always wins.

You stated what reasons you believed were responsible for pilots being willing to work for less and less, and I responded by attempting to state the mechanism by which those emotions manifest themselves in the form of lower compensation-albeit I said it in a very oversimplified manner, i.e. the way oversimplified working for beans theory.

Don’t get me wrong, there is nothing I’ve wanted more for most of my life than to fly for a living. However, I believe that pilots are professionals and should be paid as such, but as long as they are not paid as such I will continue to fly for fun and make my living in a field that is more lucrative.
 
partypilot1 said:
In keeping Capitalism tradition we can’t just limit the number of commercial licenses but could the FAA increase the 121 and 135 minimums?

Easy answer: why the hell would they? You have to remember who's pulling the strings. The FAA chief is an APPOINTED post, and the appointee sure as hell isn't going to bite the hand that feeds her (or him as the future case may be), and that hand sure as crap doesn't give a rat's a*s about pilots.


The FAA has LONG backed Air Carrier management on everything, rest and duty limitations and updates to those limitations being the current and most obvious example. I believe there's a HUGE safety factor in hiring 500 hour wonders, but that's a personal opinion that, fortunately (in the form of few accidents to compare), has little scientific data from accidents/incidents to back it up. Regardless, there's simply no reason for the FAA to act in the pilot's best interest.

It seems like a quick fix but it just might shift the cyclic trend back on track. With fewer pilots available the airline would have to pay more for them, in turn some or many operators will not be able to afford to pay more for their pilots thus taking them out of the picture. Airline ticket prices will increase but it will be even across the board.
Again, as others have stated, the only way to fix that is to dry up the supply, but any artificial limitation imposed usually comes back to haunt the market somehow down the road.

Another thought would be to set up some sort of board or panel of people that would administer a standardized test, after completing your commercial license, into your concentration of commercial flying. (Airlines, Corporate, Charter, and so on) It seems the lawyers BAR exam is set up similar to what I am thinking of.
Yes, but there are more lawyers than you can shake a stick at, more lawyers that fail and do something else for a living, and even more lawyers in the works. The factor that weeds them out is their skills as an attorney which varies from person to person - something that has little parallel to the aviation world as, by and large, our skillsets are relatively easily mastered with time and experience by nearly anyone with the intelligence and education to obtain the basic required ratings.



I am just searching for possible answers to fix our pilot problems in the United States. I hope to generate some positive responses pros and cons and leave out the pilot bashing. I am sorry if the grammar and spelling sucks, it is late and I’m tired.
Personally, I believe re-regulation of the industry is the only answer, not only for pilot pay issues but the entire losing scenario of airlines pricing their product UNDER their cost to manufacture it.

Deregulation was the worst thing that ever happened to the industry but in order to mandate wages as some are suggesting (which I'm not necessarily against), you'd have to re-regulate the entire system - there's simply no way to legally force an entire PUBLICALLY TRADED INDUSTRY to a GOVERNMENT STANDARD OF PAY under existing law.


ALPA's too scared and weak to force this kind of system within its union structures (the top 1/2 of the seniority list at every major carrier would rebel as it would probably bring the top salaries DOWN to increase the lower end salaries), and there's simply no other mechanism to accomplish what you're talking about.
 

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