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You are all missing the boat. We don't crash. That is the end of the story. Crashes are expensive. Crashes are more expensive than paying extra for experienced pilots. If inexperienced pilots don't crash then why hire experienced pilots and pay more? I'm not volunteering to "raise the bar on this one".
 
I would love to see a national seniority list, but what's to stop the airlines from avoiding hiring you after furlough? They could just as easily tap into a 3 year guy as a 30 year one.
 
I'm relatively young to this industry, so I know my comments should remain on par with my expierence. The national seniority idea seems like a good idea, to a further extent maybe goverment should regulate a minimum required salary in comparision to a total number of flight hours attained. For example, anyone with over 2500 flight hours be paid a minimum of $50, 5,000 hours $75K. Companies can still fluctuate above these salaries so as to entice the higher expierenced pilots, however companies would all have to raise ticket prices to offset this industry sandard. Though I do keep many reservations about government involvement in the industry maybe if some ticker fare regulation were in place alot of the struggiling companies wouldn't be faced with competing to drive down their ticket prices while also paying their bills.
 
regulation of a minimum wage for pilots isn't something this industry or this country needs...

and to play devil's advocate; an airline with 10 pilot jobs that has 50 resumes can (and from a management standpoint, should) lower pay commesurate with the number of applicants.

Pt 135 already has minimum hrs in place for pic, pt 121 has no mins for FOs... but establishing mins would do nothing to increase pay; it would temporarily put a strain on hiring but as soon as joe cfi gets his hours he will be jumping over himself to get the job just as he is now... as he should be. The 'opportunities' are there so why not take them...

Plus as long as cfi wages are so low we will have this problem. What 1000hr $15/hr cfi wouldn't want to:
a) fly a jet
b) get a $5/hr pay increase
 
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NookyBooky said:
It is a very simple issue. Pilots are willing to work for beans. They may whine (alot), and scream, and threaten to strike, but when push comes to shove they fly. People are bending over backwards to get any pilot job at any salary whether it be a regional job, a major job (is there such a thing anymore?), or a coporate job.

To sum up my theory: pilots are payed beans, because they're willing to work for beans. When pilots stop working for beans, they will be payed better.




NB


Ding, ding, ding...

We have a winner.

The abundance of pilots is not new, it's as old as the industry itself. There will always be way to many pilots for the positions. If I had to guess, I would say that the market would dictate that pilots make somewhere around $10 to $15 per hour. The companies would love to pay us minimum wage and think what turnover would be at wages this low, another bonus for the company. Sure there would be a lot more crashes, but insurance would pay for those and companies could afford to pay the higher rates with the extra money that's not going into pilots pockets and pensions.

There are really only two things that interfere with the market. Collective bargaining and current administration. As one person I have no power to negotiate with the company, as a matter of fact if they think that I am becomming to much trouble they can just let me go. Afterall, there is another pilot out there who can do the same job. If we negotiate as a group we gain the power to shut an airline down, which brings us nearly equal with management at the bargaining table. As I mentioned before the current administration can drive the market as well. Don't believe me, read about the early days of ALPA to see what would have happened if Dewey would have beat Truman. Ask a National pilot what would have happened to them if Nixon would have beat Kennedy in 1960.

I comes down to votes really. Do you support your union? Do you voluntier? Does your pilot group speak as a whole? Do you vote for candidates who are pro-labor? If you answered no to any of these questions you probably ought to look at yourself in the mirror when you ask why you make what you do, because no one else is going to do these things for you and management sure as hell isn't going to pay you any more than they have to.

I'll step off my soap-box now.
 
I don't believe labor unions are the answer. Labor unions have outlived their effectiveness. See: NAFTA. I don't believe goverment regulation of the airlines is the answer. The goverment is a terrible buisness partner. See: TVA.
The problem as I see it is supply and demand. It's a buyers market.

.
 
Bryan D said:
I don't believe labor unions are the answer. Labor unions have outlived their effectiveness. See: NAFTA. I don't believe goverment regulation of the airlines is the answer. The goverment is a terrible buisness partner. See: TVA.
The problem as I see it is supply and demand. It's a buyers market.

.

How exactly do you propose that we could negotiate? Without a union, we have absolutely no bargaining power, we would be forced to accept whatever the company decided to give us, which would be precisely the smallest amount that they could get away with. And with no shortage of hungry pilots on the street waiting to take our jobs, we are expendable.

Fast forward a few years Bryan D has been the perfect airline pilot, he's always on time and has never scratched an airplane, so he thinks that maybe it's time for a raise. He and the rest of his pilot group voted ALPA off the property over a year ago because it had outlived it's effectiveness. In the mean time, the companies profits have started to slip so they have have instituted pay cuts across the board, and have gotten rid of any work rules not federally mandated in the name of efficiency. A few pilots have attempted to get ALPA back on property but they have been fired. Despite this Bryan D knows that he has been the perfect employee and decides to ask the boss for a raise.

Bryan D: Excuse me sir, do you have a minute?

CEO X: Sure son, what can I do for you?

Bryan D: Well sir, the thing is I just got married and have a baby on the way...

CEO X: That's great son, I'm a busy man can I help you?

Bryan D: Of course sir, well...I was just thinking that I've been a loyal employee at your company for three years now and thought that...maybe you could find it in your heart to give me a raise. Like I was saying I have a baby on the way and am having trouble paying the bills on my current salery.

CEO X: Son, times are tough...you know we all have to pitch in if we want the company to make it.

Bryan D: Um...didn't the company make record profits last quarter sir.

CEO X: Yes we did, but we didn't do it by just throwing money away on employees.

Bryan D: Well sir, I really could use the money...

CEO X: We all could son. Now you have a nice day.

Bryan D: Sir, I must insist...

CEO X: Oh, you insist...I see...well in that case I guess I'll just have to hire one of the 3,000 pilots who sent us a resume last month to take your position, I bet that they won't insist. You wouldn't want me to do that would you?

Bryan D: Of course not sir, never mind that I brought it up. I think you are doing an outstanding job, keep it up.

CEO X: Is that all?

Bryan D: Yes sir, sorry I bothered you...thank you for the job.

CEO X: That's what I thought.
 
Agreed government regulation of the industry is not the best thing, no doubt it will lead to corruption amongst politicans and companies. Perhaps setting a mandatory minimum regulated wage isn't the best tree to bark up either, it was just a passing thought. My logic in that idea is that companies would all, collectively have to meet a similar payroll which would give them no other option but to raise fare prices (I'd Hope). It is the same free trade principle that helps an industry grow that is hurting the aviation industry. Companies are trying to stimulate demand by driving down prices, while there is an excess of supply (i.e. pilots). Everyone wants to work their way into the industry so bad that some are even willing to pay for it. The aviation industry is like a mirage in the desert, it looks great from far away and you run your ass off trying to get to it only to find yourself groping some sand.
 
The REAL problem is that its just to easy to get an ATP or commercial license. Don't kid yourself, a monkey can fly a regional jet.

If you want the pay to go up, drain the supply. If you want to drain the supply make it harder to get an ATP. Require a master's degree, up the minimum hours; add a height weight ratio... You get the idea. And please spare the diatribe on how you don't need a degree to fly an airplane.

If you don’t believe monkeys can fly airplane just take a look here:

http://www.princessmonkey.com/monkeys/flying.html
 
Was in an interview last week and at the end of the day those of us left standing were offered a job and a class date. When asked if we had any questions one of the guys (who has a current flying job) raised his hand with his nose turning brown and asked and I quote "is there anything I can do in the mean time... like work here in the building...I mean I can mow lawns or whatever..." I almost puked. We as professional pilots must have some pride in what we do for a living. It's great to be excited about a new position but please let's not act like they just did us some huge favor when offered a position, we've earned it right??. This guy would have taken the job for 65% of the pay and half the benefits and management knew it. It's hard to negotiate anything better for a pilot group when those attitudes are so evident.
 

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