Pinnacle, pilots union meet with mediators

[kmox29]

The race to the bottom ends right here with 9E.

Actually, the race to the bottom is ending next door to you guys. Heard of Mesaba?

Unless you were an Express I pilot, you have no idea how bad things are going to get.

 

[Smarta$$]

Every regional MEC/EXCO out there will be trying to get parent company/holding company/air group scope during their next time through the contract dance, and every management group out there will try to make it seem like the most massively expensive bargaining item in the history of contract negotiations, even if they don't particularly give a crap.

For management, the cat's out of the bag -- everyone expects the ol' alter ego trick. For pilot reps, the trick is to get scope without giving away the farm. The problem is, the worse you want something, the more expensive it gets.

Bottom line: I think we're doomed.

We can thank GOATJET for that!

 

[Smarta$$]

Not to shoot down your optimism (because being optimistic can be a good thing), but any contract offered to you by 9E management is going to be a big stinking pile of manure.

You can get a contract done tonight, if you're willing to fly for Mesa pay rates.

Wow, you sound like a pinnacle expert. How long did you work there?

 

[CrownandCoke]

Not to shoot down your optimism (because being optimistic can be a good thing), but any contract offered to you by 9E management is going to be a big stinking pile of manure.

You can get a contract done tonight, if you're willing to fly for Mesa pay rates.

of course we could get a contract done tonight if we were willing to fly for Mesa pay rates, but we're not...hence the reason we have been in negotiations.

Nothing could be worse than the current contract we have now...

 

[JethroFDX]

Unless you were an Express I pilot, you have no idea how bad things are going to get.

And I never got my J31 type. :angryfire


Before the monsoon hit MEM last night I talked with another former 'Linker, who left about 8 years ago, that he could never imagine how things are over there now. He thought it was bad during the Brady years.

Good luck bro's.

 

[kmox29]

Wow, you sound like a pinnacle expert. How long did you work there?

I've worked for the altenate dimension Pinnacle Airlines (called Mesaba) for 7 years. My point was that if you can't see what they are doing to Mesaba and how the same sham and tactics will be used against Pinnalce, you're blind.

It doesn't take an expert to see that.

 

[kmox29]

Nothing could be worse than the current contract we have now...

Have you seen what they're proposing to Mesaba?

 

[Lear70]

For management, the cat's out of the bag -- everyone expects the ol' alter ego trick. For pilot reps, the trick is to get scope without giving away the farm. The problem is, the worse you want something, the more expensive it gets.

Yeah, but the reps are savvy to it and don't have to give up an INCH of current Scope. It's already in there and with the record profits for 5 years and counting, the company is gonna have to come off that pile of cash.

Maybe not to the tune that everyone WANTS, but it will be FAR from concessionary unless the MEC just screws the pooch which I seriously doubt will happen with the current domicile reps in place.

Bottom line: I think we're doomed.

Oh ye of little faith... and I thought people said I was pessimistic.

No need to bump for me, I've been up outta that beyatch for almost half a year now. Hard to believe, but SOOOO sweet!

Just got back from an 8-day cruise out towards St Thomas, St. Maarten,,, gained 5 pounds but it was WORTH it! imp:

 

[Sun Devil 2000]

FLYER1015

Love the Pic of uncle Phil

 

[WildBlue]

Most of you guys have no idea what you are talking about.

Pinnacle pilots are being whipsawed not only by Mesaba but Compass and Republic. Take a short look at the CEO of Compass. Neil Cohen is the guy making all the moves in the NW bankruptcy, and he is the CEO of Compass. Where do you think his next big payday is? Compass will be IPO'd in a few years for twice what PCL brought to NW and Cohen/Steenland will be there for their shares.

PCL pilots are left with two options: take whatever they can get in the way of workrules/scope or watch their jobs go to Republic or Compass. The NMB is not going to let them go on strike so the by hanging tough, they simply watch their careers melt away.

There is not a "WIN" scenario out there for the PCL guys.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Most of you guys have no idea what you are talking about.

Pinnacle pilots are being whipsawed not only by Mesaba but Compass and Republic. Take a short look at the CEO of Compass. Neil Cohen is the guy making all the moves in the NW bankruptcy, and he is the CEO of Compass. Where do you think his next big payday is? Compass will be IPO'd in a few years for twice what PCL brought to NW and Cohen/Steenland will be there for their shares.

PCL pilots are left with two options: take whatever they can get in the way of workrules/scope or watch their jobs go to Republic or Compass. The NMB is not going to let them go on strike so the by hanging tough, they simply watch their careers melt away.

There is not a "WIN" scenario out there for the PCL guys.

And who is to blame for Compass? ALPA, NWALPA, and DW. Brand scope was an empty promise to keep everyone believing in ALPA. Pinnacle and Mesaba will suffer the consequences.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

And who is to blame for Compass? ALPA, NWALPA, and DW. Brand scope was an empty promise to keep everyone believing in ALPA. Pinnacle and Mesaba will suffer the consequences.

John, seriously, don't you ever get tired of blaming ALPA? All this can't be good for the BP. You will not live a long happy life if you keep up this childish tirade!

 

[WildBlue]

You speak of "ALPA" as if it were a monolithic organization with the President sitting at the top pulling the strings of every pilot group. That is simply false. ALPA is a collection of individual fiefdoms. This is whole mess was started back in the '80s when the mainline pilots thought flying small prop airplanes was beneath them.

Blame ALPA if it makes you feel a bit better. The fact of the matter is that the pilots at Pinnacle, Mesaba, Comair, and ASA all work for bankrupt carriers who are going to do whatever it takes to achieve the lowest costs in the industry. Northwest is particularly ruthless. Both these carriers have not only basic labor law on their sides, but they also have the power of the bankrupcty court.

All these pilots need to look deep within themselves and ask whether it is better to keep their jobs or move on. The Mesaba guys are not being given a choice. The others could make a deal and have a much higher chance of living to fight another day. The deal will be tough to swallow, but losing your health care and jobs you may have invested ten years or more, all for the sake of holding the line, will be even more bitter.

 

[Lear70]

You speak of "ALPA" as if it were a monolithic organization with the President sitting at the top pulling the strings of every pilot group. That is simply false.

Actually, that's not far off. DW determines policy, no one has had the balls to stand up to him and tell him to go a different route, therefore he IS sitting at the top pulling the strings.

ALPA is a collection of individual fiefdoms. This is whole mess was started back in the '80s when the mainline pilots thought flying small prop airplanes was beneath them.

No argument there but, again, what we're talking about is how to fix things NOW and ALPA has been Woerthless (excuse the pun), at changing ANYTHING in our favor.

Yes, I know that it's the judicial system and the government's support of the more onerous parts of the RLA that are largely to blame, but isn't that what ALPA PAC was for? So if it's not ALPA PAC swaying the government to blame, and it's not the individual carriers who are CURRENTLY FIGHTING to blame, who is there left directing the organization?

Blame ALPA if it makes you feel a bit better. The fact of the matter is that the pilots at Pinnacle, Mesaba, Comair, and ASA all work for bankrupt carriers who are going to do whatever it takes to achieve the lowest costs in the industry. Northwest is particularly ruthless. Both these carriers have not only basic labor law on their sides, but they also have the power of the bankrupcty court.

Agreed.

All these pilots need to look deep within themselves and ask whether it is better to keep their jobs or move on. The Mesaba guys are not being given a choice. The others could make a deal and have a much higher chance of living to fight another day. The deal will be tough to swallow, but losing your health care and jobs you may have invested ten years or more, all for the sake of holding the line, will be even more bitter.

There is no "living to fight another day". That's a useless mantra being chanted for the disinformed masses and something all the carriers have been crying for over a decade, yet it continues to worsen, even as record profits are being posted.

Explain to me HOW you're living to fight another day? Explain to me HOW things are going to be somehow better for negotiations in the future? Be specific. Are you somehow going to get the RLA overturned or modified? Not likely. There is no "better day" out there; airlines will rake in the profits for the next 5-7 years then start posting losses right about the time all these negotiations start back up again.

Die all at once NOW, salvage your career and move on NOW, or die in little bits and pieces like so many carriers taking huge pay cuts then not even getting BASIC COLA adjustments and make equivalently LESS as you age.

Until pilots are ready to bury an airline and move on, nothing good will happen at any of these carriers. Loss of income is all these management people understand; make it hurt THEM and they'll stop. Continue to capitulate and you'll only encourage them.

But that's all a pipe dream. Too many people willing to HOPE for a brighter future and give in now and keep dreaming. One day a couple decades from now, you'll wake up and wonder "WTF happened to my career?"

 

[CoATP]

Thinigs will not get better until there are not throngs of pilots willing to work for dirt wages. Smaller numbers of furloughed pilots returning than ever before, perhaps some time at a decent income has convinced them that "the dream" is supporting themselves and their family.

ALPA is going to "make a stand" with the airlines it can afford to lose (regionals) and use them as examples for improving conditions when the big boys come around to the table again. USA today has a piece today about improving airline conditions but makes pilots seem like they are still high paid. They always use the 150-200k example for salaries.

 

[XJohXJ]

NWA and their fetid stinking piece of sh!t crap contract has proven that when the "another day" rolls around, many wish they were not there to see it, after all.

 

[Rook]

ALPA is going to "make a stand" with the airlines it can afford to lose (regionals) and use them as examples for improving conditions when the big boys come around to the table again.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Tank Commander]

Just got done picketing in DTW. Had a strong turn-out 80-90 pilots. Never got to picket in the corps. They would throw your a$$ in prison or shoot you. It's great to be a civilian again! (watch this......... Bush eat $hit!) I love this country.

 

[Lear70]

Fo shizzle my nizzle, bizzell... how YOU doin? Long time no talk... where u been?

You upgrading yet or what? Still have that hat if you want it.

 

[Clark W.]

my mec speaks for me

Really? You have told several people how much you dislike ALPA. So full of it, Dave.